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larkrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:10 pm Post subject: Aeroled wiring

Hi all

 

I've started wiring my -10 and am wondering if what I'm proposing is within normal wiring standards.

 

A shielded 20 ga, 3 conductor wire enters the wing tip near the rear wing spar, goes forward to the leading edge.  I'd like to remove about 2" of outer insulation, 3' from the end, pull the shielding away from the 3 wires, solder another wire to the shield and ground to the metal wing rib.  The 3' shielded wire then goes to the Aeroled light via a 4 pin connector, with the shielding tieing to the Aeroled base as per  installation instructions.

  

The idea is to ground at the light base and at the outboard wing rib while still having enough wire to set the wing tip on the floor.  I guess I could run another ground wire from the light base directly to the ouboard rib, but why not use the shielding as it passes the rib? 

  

Does this configuration seem right?

 

Thx,  Rick

#40956

Southampton, Ont

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

  [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:50 pm Post subject: Aeroled wiring

At 08:09 PM 1/1/2013, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi all



I've started wiring my -10 and am wondering if what I'm proposing is 

within normal wiring standards.



A shielded 20 ga, 3 conductor wire enters the wing tip near the rear 

wing spar, goes forward to the leading edge.  I'd like to remove 

about 2" of outer insulation, 3' from the end, pull the shielding 

away from the 3 wires, solder another wire to the shield and ground 

to the metal wing rib.  The 3' shielded wire then goes to the 

Aeroled light via a 4 pin connector, with the shielding tieing to 

the Aeroled base as per  installation instructions.


	


   what part number of AEROLED are you using? I'd

   like to see the instructions.

   Bob . . .

larkrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:17 pm Post subject: Aeroled wiring

Bob, a pair of Pulsar NS 90's and the Suntail.  

 

Here's a link to the installation instructions.



http://www.aeroleds.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=VLoy7bgULOw%3d&tabid=6250

  

I've seen your description on how to add a faston connector to shielding, so I'm basically proposing the same thing, just not at the end of the wire.

 

Make sense?

 

 Thx,  Rick

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 9:49 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>

  

 At 08:09 PM 1/1/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Hi all

 

 I've started wiring my -10 and am wondering if what I'm proposing is within normal wiring standards.

 

 A shielded 20 ga, 3 conductor wire enters the wing tip near the rear wing spar, goes forward to the leading edge.  I'd like to remove about 2" of outer insulation, 3' from the end, pull the shielding away from the 3 wires, solder another wire to the shield and ground to the metal wing rib.  The 3' shielded wire then goes to the Aeroled light via a 4 pin connector, with the shielding tieing to the Aeroled base as per  installation instructions.

  	
 

   what part number of AEROLED are you using? I'd

   like to see the instructions.

 

 

   Bob . . . 

 

 ====================================

 om" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

 et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 le, List Admin.

 ====================================

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 ====================================

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 

 

 

 [b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:30 am Post subject: Aeroled wiring

At 09:15 PM 1/1/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob, a pair of Pulsar NS 90's and the Suntail.  

  

 Here's a link to the installation instructions.



  http://www.aeroleds.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=VLoy7bgULOw%3d&tabid=6250 

  

 I've seen your description on how to add a faston connector to shielding, so I'm basically proposing the same thing, just not at the end of the wire.

  

 Make sense?

  

 Thx,  Rick 	


    Their installation drawings don't make sense.

    ASSUMING that the installation has been proven

    to BENEFIT from shielded wire. Who is the victim,

    who is the antagonist and how does this shielding

    break the propagation?



    SOME led power supplies have proven problematic

    for integration into airplanes. One notable product

    are the LuxDrive supplies popular with some

    DIY position lights installations. We crafted

    a filter board for these power supplies to

    fix a fundamental shortcoming for use on aircraft.

    



   



    If the AEROLED product has a similar problem, shielding

    the power leads won't fix it. Similarly, if the AEROLED

    has some vulnerabilities to on-board transmitters, the

    once again, shielded wire wont fix it.



    Suggest you ditch the shielding (if the wires are already

    in place, use it as a bundled trio and ignore the shields.

    Install connectors as convenient to your anticipated

    service requirements.



    If a noise issue presents itself, let's attack the

    problem with the judicious application of filter(s).



 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

ctbecker

Joined: 14 May 2006
Posts: 9

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:04 am Post subject: Aeroled wiring

Thats exactly what I did on my installation and it seems 

to work just fine.



Charlie Becker

On Tue, 1 Jan 2013 22:15:59 -0500

  Rick Lark <larkrv10(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Bob, a pair of Pulsar NS 90's and the Suntail.

 

 Here's a link to the installation instructions.

 

 http://www.aeroleds.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=VLoy7bgULOw%3d&tabid=6250

 

 I've seen your description on how to add a faston 

connector to shielding,

 so I'm basically proposing the same thing, just not at 

the end of the wire.

 

 Make sense?

 

 Thx,  Rick

 

 

 

 

 On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 9:49 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III 

<

 nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

 

> 

>Nuckolls, III" <

> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com**>

>

> At 08:09 PM 1/1/2013, you wrote:

>

>> Hi all

>>

>> I've started wiring my -10 and am wondering if what I'm 

>>proposing is

>> within normal wiring standards.

>>

>> A shielded 20 ga, 3 conductor wire enters the wing tip 

>>near the rear wing

>> spar, goes forward to the leading edge.  I'd like to 

>>remove about 2" of

>> outer insulation, 3' from the end, pull the shielding 

>>away from the 3

>> wires, solder another wire to the shield and ground to 

>>the metal wing rib.

>>  The 3' shielded wire then goes to the Aeroled light via 

>>a 4 pin connector,

>> with the shielding tieing to the Aeroled base as per 

>> installation

>> instructions.

>>

>

>   what part number of AEROLED are you using? I'd

>   like to see the instructions.

>   Bob . . .

>

larkrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:43 pm Post subject: Aeroled wiring

Bob, I believe the "victim"(s) are coax antenna and associated radios.  The "antagonist", I'm not sure.  I did speak to Dean at Aeroled, and I remember him talking about these lights not having a capacitor discharge, therfore the noise characteristics were different than "Whelan" type strobes.  How the shielding breaks the propagation of noise, I have no idea.

  

It's going to be months before I will have the strobes and radios powered up, but I'll let you know how I make out. Wiring has been installed, but no connections made.  I'm planning to go to Sun & Fun  so hopefully the Aeroled people are there and I will have a talk with them again.

  

Thx,  Rick

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

 [quote]  At 09:15 PM 1/1/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob, a pair of Pulsar NS 90's and the Suntail.  

  

 Here's a link to the installation instructions.



  http://www.aeroleds.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=VLoy7bgULOw%3d&tabid=6250 

  

 I've seen your description on how to add a faston connector to shielding, so I'm basically proposing the same thing, just not at the end of the wire.

  

 Make sense?

  

 Thx,  Rick 	


    Their installation drawings don't make sense.

    ASSUMING that the installation has been proven

    to BENEFIT from shielded wire. Who is the victim,

    who is the antagonist and how does this shielding

    break the propagation?



    SOME led power supplies have proven problematic

    for integration into airplanes. One notable product

    are the LuxDrive supplies popular with some

    DIY position lights installations. We crafted

    a filter board for these power supplies to

    fix a fundamental shortcoming for use on aircraft.

    



   



    If the AEROLED product has a similar problem, shielding

    the power leads won't fix it. Similarly, if the AEROLED

    has some vulnerabilities to on-board transmitters, the

    once again, shielded wire wont fix it.



    Suggest you ditch the shielding (if the wires are already

    in place, use it as a bundled trio and ignore the shields.

    Install connectors as convenient to your anticipated

    service requirements.



    If a noise issue presents itself, let's attack the

    problem with the judicious application of filter(s).



 

   Bob . . .     	  Quote: 	
		  



_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tp://forums.matronics.com



	




[b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:41 pm Post subject: Aeroled wiring

At 07:43 PM 1/2/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob, I believe the "victim"(s) are coax antenna and associated radios.  The "antagonist", I'm not sure.  I did speak to Dean at Aeroled, and I remember him talking about these lights not having a capacitor discharge, therfore the noise characteristics were different than "Whelan" type strobes.  How the shielding breaks the propagation of noise, I have no idea.

  

 It's going to be months before I will have the strobes and radios powered up, but I'll let you know how I make out. Wiring has been installed, but no connections made.  I'm planning to go to Sun & Fun  so hopefully the Aeroled people are there and I will have a talk with them again.

  	


    Yes, the noise is very different. While

    h.v. strobe systems are replete with fast-rise

    current/voltage waveforms at the flash rate

    of the strobes, the LED supply noise is

    an artifact of the switchmode, constant

    current power supply typically used to 

    drive leds.



    If the AEROLED product generates noises at

    unacceptable levels, it's likely to be 

    CONDUCTED noise that will propagate right

    down the power lines, shielded or not.



    Have Dean give me a call any time. My mobile

    phone is 316-209-7528.  I'd like to explore

    his perceptions of noise issues for his product.

    I think we can be of service and perhaps save

    future customers from jumping unnecessary

    hoops. 



    I'm 99% sure that shielding these wires is

    of no value. If there are noise problems to

    be addressed, then filters located at the

    source are called for.



 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

mikefapex

Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 70
Location: Colorado

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:33 pm Post subject: Aeroled wiring

I have the AeroLeds (two of the combined nav light/white strobe units) installed on my trike (Z19 RB).  I wired up as per their instructions but they exhibit a small 'three click' noise in my headsets every time they flash. Not very loud but frustrating since all the other electrics work just fine.

 

 I've not had time to do further debugging since early last year/2012 but I tried their suggestions of ferrite wraps. This did not help. 



On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 7:39 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

 [quote]  At 07:43 PM 1/2/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob, I believe the "victim"(s) are coax antenna and associated radios.  The "antagonist", I'm not sure.  I did speak to Dean at Aeroled, and I remember him talking about these lights not having a capacitor discharge, therfore the noise characteristics were different than "Whelan" type strobes.  How the shielding breaks the propagation of noise, I have no idea.

  

 It's going to be months before I will have the strobes and radios powered up, but I'll let you know how I make out. Wiring has been installed, but no connections made.  I'm planning to go to Sun & Fun  so hopefully the Aeroled people are there and I will have a talk with them again.

   	




    Yes, the noise is very different. While

    h.v. strobe systems are replete with fast-rise

    current/voltage waveforms at the flash rate

    of the strobes, the LED supply noise is

    an artifact of the switchmode, constant

    current power supply typically used to 

    drive leds.



    If the AEROLED product generates noises at

    unacceptable levels, it's likely to be 

    CONDUCTED noise that will propagate right

    down the power lines, shielded or not.



    Have Dean give me a call any time. My mobile

    phone is [url=tel:316-209-7528]316-209-7528[/url].  I'd like to explore

    his perceptions of noise issues for his product.

    I think we can be of service and perhaps save

    future customers from jumping unnecessary

    hoops. 



    I'm 99% sure that shielding these wires is

    of no value. If there are noise problems to

    be addressed, then filters located at the

    source are called for.



 

 

   Bob . . .     	  Quote: 	
		  



_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

===========-- Mike=======Mike FontenotApex Consulting & Services LLCLakewood, Colorado303 / 731-6645

mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com================================



	


[b]

berkut13(at)berkut13.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:56 pm Post subject: Aeroled wiring

Did you use the latest wiring diagram off their website?  The one that  comes with the units is out of date.

  

 -James

 Berkut/Race 13

 www.berkut13.com

  

  

    

  From: Mike Fontenot (mikefapex(at)gmail.com) 

 Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 5:32 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)  

 Subject: Re: Aeroled wiring

  



 I  have the AeroLeds (two of the combined nav light/white strobe units) installed  on my trike (Z19 RB).  I wired up as per their instructions but they  exhibit a small 'three click' noise in my headsets every time they flash. Not  very loud but frustrating since all the other electrics work just  fine.



I've not had time to do further debugging since early last  year/2012 but I tried their suggestions of ferrite wraps. This did not help.  



 On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 7:39 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III  <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

 [quote]      At 07:43 PM 1/2/2013, you wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  Bob, I believe the "victim"(s) are coax antenna and      associated radios.  The "antagonist", I'm not sure.  I did speak      to Dean at Aeroled, and I remember him talking about these lights not having      a capacitor discharge, therfore the noise characteristics were different      than "Whelan" type strobes.  How the shielding breaks the propagation      of noise, I have no idea.

 

It's going to be months before I will      have the strobes and radios powered up, but I'll let you know how I make      out. Wiring has been installed, but no connections made.  I'm planning      to go to Sun & Fun  so hopefully the Aeroled people are there and I      will have a talk with them    again.

 	




   Yes, the noise is    very different. While

   h.v. strobe systems are replete with    fast-rise

   current/voltage waveforms at the flash    rate

   of the strobes, the LED supply noise is

      an artifact of the switchmode, constant

   current power supply    typically used to 

   drive leds.



   If the    AEROLED product generates noises at

   unacceptable levels, it's    likely to be 

   CONDUCTED noise that will propagate    right

   down the power lines, shielded or    not.



   Have Dean give me a call any time. My    mobile

   phone is [url=tel:316-209-7528]316-209-7528[/url].  I'd like to    explore

   his perceptions of noise issues for his    product.

   I think we can be of service and perhaps    save

   future customers from jumping unnecessary

      hoops. 



   I'm 99% sure that shielding these wires    is

   of no value. If there are noise problems to

      be addressed, then filters located at the

   source are called    for.

   

  Bob . . .        	  Quote: 	
		  



_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

===========-- Mike=======Mike FontenotApex Consulting & Services LLCLakewood, Colorado303 / 731-6645

mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com================================



	






href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:16 pm Post subject: Aeroled wiring

At 05:32 PM 1/3/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I have the AeroLeds (two of the combined nav light/white strobe units) installed on my trike (Z19 RB).  I wired up as per their instructions but they exhibit a small 'three click' noise in my headsets every time they flash. Not very loud but frustrating since all the other electrics work just fine.



  I've not had time to do further debugging since early last year/2012 but I tried their suggestions of ferrite wraps. This did not help. 	


     . . . and I wouldn't expect them to help.

    What 'black boxes' are driving the headsets?

    Do you have an intercom? Does a radio also

    speak to the headsets?



 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

larkrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:38 pm Post subject: Aeroled wiring

Mike, Sorry to hear you've got a problem.

 

I'm assuming you used the shielded, 3 conductor 20 ga wire that Aeroled recommends?  Did you run the wire separately or in wire bundles and/or with any coax antennae cable?

  

Any help is appreciated.

 

Regards,  Rick

 



 

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 6:32 PM, Mike Fontenot <mikefapex(at)gmail.com (mikefapex(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]I have the AeroLeds (two of the combined nav light/white strobe units) installed on my trike (Z19 RB).  I wired up as per their instructions but they exhibit a small 'three click' noise in my headsets every time they flash. Not very loud but frustrating since all the other electrics work just fine.

  

 I've not had time to do further debugging since early last year/2012 but I tried their suggestions of ferrite wraps. This did not help. 



On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 7:39 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		    At 07:43 PM 1/2/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob, I believe the "victim"(s) are coax antenna and associated radios.  The "antagonist", I'm not sure.  I did speak to Dean at Aeroled, and I remember him talking about these lights not having a capacitor discharge, therfore the noise characteristics were different than "Whelan" type strobes.  How the shielding breaks the propagation of noise, I have no idea.

  

 It's going to be months before I will have the strobes and radios powered up, but I'll let you know how I make out. Wiring has been installed, but no connections made.  I'm planning to go to Sun & Fun  so hopefully the Aeroled people are there and I will have a talk with them again.

   	




    Yes, the noise is very different. While

    h.v. strobe systems are replete with fast-rise

    current/voltage waveforms at the flash rate

    of the strobes, the LED supply noise is

    an artifact of the switchmode, constant

    current power supply typically used to 

    drive leds.



    If the AEROLED product generates noises at

    unacceptable levels, it's likely to be 

    CONDUCTED noise that will propagate right

    down the power lines, shielded or not.



    Have Dean give me a call any time. My mobile

    phone is [url=tel:316-209-7528]316-209-7528[/url].  I'd like to explore

    his perceptions of noise issues for his product.

    I think we can be of service and perhaps save

    future customers from jumping unnecessary

    hoops. 



    I'm 99% sure that shielding these wires is

    of no value. If there are noise problems to

    be addressed, then filters located at the

    source are called for.



 

 

   Bob . . .     	  Quote: 	
		  



_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

===========-- Mike=======Mike FontenotApex Consulting & Services LLCLakewood, Colorado[url=tel:303%20%2F%20731-6645]303 / 731-6645[/url]



mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com================================



	






ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

mikef(at)apexconsultingse
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:31 am Post subject: Aeroled wiring

 	  Quote: 	
		  >I'm assuming you used the shielded, 3 conductor 20 ga wire that Aeroled recommends?

No, at the time of my installation they simply specified regular 18ga wire.  I did install it with a twist the entire length. Like I said, I've just been too busy and unable to address this. When I get the time I will go back and review their latest suggestions. 
	


 

I would just suggest that people considering LEDs should not assume they will be noise free (because they are LEDs!). I like mine a lot, they are low amp usage, very bright, easy to configure as sync'd lights, but the actual noise-free install is somewhat more complicated than I appreciated. Two+ years ago we were all a bit less educated on this (I certainly was), but it seems these issues are better understood. 

 

On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 7:37 PM, Rick Lark <larkrv10(at)gmail.com (larkrv10(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] 

Mike, Sorry to hear you've got a problem.

 

I'm assuming you used the shielded, 3 conductor 20 ga wire that Aeroled recommends?  Did you run the wire separately or in wire bundles and/or with any coax antennae cable?

   

Any help is appreciated.

 

Regards,  Rick

 



 

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 6:32 PM, Mike Fontenot <mikefapex(at)gmail.com (mikefapex(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  I have the AeroLeds (two of the combined nav light/white strobe units) installed on my trike (Z19 RB).  I wired up as per their instructions but they exhibit a small 'three click' noise in my headsets every time they flash. Not very loud but frustrating since all the other electrics work just fine.

   

 I've not had time to do further debugging since early last year/2012 but I tried their suggestions of ferrite wraps. This did not help. 

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 7:39 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		    At 07:43 PM 1/2/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob, I believe the "victim"(s) are coax antenna and associated radios.  The "antagonist", I'm not sure.  I did speak to Dean at Aeroled, and I remember him talking about these lights not having a capacitor discharge, therfore the noise characteristics were different than "Whelan" type strobes.  How the shielding breaks the propagation of noise, I have no idea.

  

 It's going to be months before I will have the strobes and radios powered up, but I'll let you know how I make out. Wiring has been installed, but no connections made.  I'm planning to go to Sun & Fun  so hopefully the Aeroled people are there and I will have a talk with them again.

   	




    Yes, the noise is very different. While

    h.v. strobe systems are replete with fast-rise

    current/voltage waveforms at the flash rate

    of the strobes, the LED supply noise is

    an artifact of the switchmode, constant

    current power supply typically used to 

    drive leds.



    If the AEROLED product generates noises at

    unacceptable levels, it's likely to be 

    CONDUCTED noise that will propagate right

    down the power lines, shielded or not.



    Have Dean give me a call any time. My mobile

    phone is [url=tel:316-209-7528]316-209-7528[/url].  I'd like to explore

    his perceptions of noise issues for his product.

    I think we can be of service and perhaps save

    future customers from jumping unnecessary

    hoops. 



    I'm 99% sure that shielding these wires is

    of no value. If there are noise problems to

    be addressed, then filters located at the

    source are called for.



 

 

   Bob . . .     	  Quote: 	
		  



_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

===========-- Mike



	






ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	




   	  Quote: 	
		  



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[b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:01 am Post subject: Aeroled wiring

At 10:31 AM 1/7/2013, you wrote:

 >>I'm assuming you used the shielded, 3 conductor 20 ga wire that Aeroled recommends?

 No, at the time of my installation they simply specified regular 18ga wire.  I did install it with a twist the entire length. Like I said, I've just been too busy and unable to address this. When I get the time I will go back and review their latest suggestions. 



 I would just suggest that people considering LEDs should not assume they will be noise free (because they are LEDs!). I like mine a lot, they are low amp usage, very bright, easy to configure as sync'd lights, but the actual noise-free install is somewhat more complicated than I appreciated. Two+ years ago we were all a bit less educated on this (I certainly was), but it seems these issues are better understood. 



  LED lamps are, like their incandescent predecessors are quite noise free. Problem is that they are low voltage (2-4 volt) devices best driven as series parallel arrays by constant current power supplies. The power supplies are POWER OSCILLATORS with high probability of harmonic content that extends into the range of interest for radios. There may also be switching transients generated by wig-wag flashing that propagate mainly on the power supply lines.

  Here's the problem. These devices are advertised with claims to having been awarded PMA for use aboard type certificated airplanes.  This implies that they've been tested to the legacy electro-magnetic compatability issues common to thousands of other products presently sold into the TC aircraft industry.

  When you're jumping the DO-160 EMC hoops, the product is treated as a stand-alone 'black box'. It must meet emissions standards without regard to installation issues. A requirement for shielded power/control wiring or a suggestion for avoiding wire bundles carrying other airframe wires is not allowed.

  I've written to AEROLED asking to have some conversation with one or more of their techno-wienies with a goal for understanding more about (1) installation  recommendations and (2) noise experiences articulated here on the List.

  There's a BIG disconnect here. I'll continue to pursue a better understanding. ASSUMING we discover that AEROLED recommendations for installation are VALID, then the quality of their PMA is in doubt . . . which is really immaterial to our task. It may be that a simple set of filter components located at the power and control terminals of the device will eliminate the noises. In any case, shielded wire or selective routing of wires is a band-aid that admits to less than optimum design of the product.

    Bob . . .    [quote][b]

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Aeroled wiring

Being completely ignorant of the Aeroled system and wiring....



Noise in Electrical Circuits 101:



1) Saving a dollar in pcb design often generates problems that take thousands of dollars to solve in the field. (Hard-won wisdom.)

2) In my opinion, using a two layer PCB in a low-noise design is insane, unless it can be proven that it works as well as a 4-or-more layer board.

3) Sharp-edged signals have their place in extremely small, extremely low-power logic, but not in power supplies beyond what is needed to keep the thermal issues under control and the parts' size and cost manageable.

4) Minimize clock traces and clock trace power, and clock signal edges.

5) Control noise at the source. Always.



Noise in strobes: Whelen designed their venerable strobe units long ago. The strobe energy was stored in caps right at the beefy master-supply-strobe-sync unit. Today, especially for LEDs the strobe energy is best accumulated right at the discharge point (Supercaps?) to reduce noise issues and wiring size. Power to the strobes should be entirely DC with the sync signal generated by any number of simple means that won't generate an audio tick.

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:23 am Post subject: Aeroled wiring

At 08:35 AM 1/8/2013, you wrote:




Being completely ignorant of the Aeroled system and wiring....



Noise in Electrical Circuits 101:



1) Saving a dollar in pcb design often generates problems that take 

thousands of dollars to solve in the field. (Hard-won wisdom.)

2) In my opinion, using a two layer PCB in a low-noise design is 

insane, unless it can be proven that it works as well as a 4-or-more 

layer board.



   . . . . or has been proven adequate by DO-170/Mil-STD-462

   testing.



3) Sharp-edged signals have their place in extremely small, extremely 

low-power logic, but not in power supplies beyond what is needed to 

keep the thermal issues under control and the parts' size and cost manageable.

4) Minimize clock traces and clock trace power, and clock signal edges.

5) Control noise at the source. Always.



Noise in strobes: Whelen designed their venerable strobe units long 

ago. The strobe energy was stored in caps right at the beefy 

master-supply-strobe-sync unit. Today, especially for LEDs the strobe 

energy is best accumulated right at the discharge point (Supercaps?) 

to reduce noise issues and wiring size. Power to the strobes should 

be entirely DC with the sync signal generated by any number of simple 

means that won't generate an audio tick.



    It's not yet clear as to the nature of the

    offending emission. The filter needed for

    integrating the Luxdrive products addressed

    a poorly managed radio frequency issue. This

    spectrum of potential interference IS covered

    by DO-160, Paragraph 21.3

    The 'tick' cited by several writers is probably

    a conducted, fast rise current transient coming

    out on the power lines. This is a very low energy

    event at an audio rate and with imperceptible

    radio frequency components.



    DO-160 DOES have a test for SUSCEPTIBILITY to low energy

    spikes (used to be called the chattering relay

    test . . . in fact, early bench test fixtures did

    indeed use a 'buzzing' relay as a noise generator).



    But it doesn't speak to kind of noise EMISSION that might

    generate the 'tick'.  There are LOTS of devices that

    generate transients that might 'tick' . . . landing

    light turn on, pitot heat turn on, landing gear motor

    inrush, etc.  Folks tend to ignore these due to their

    intermittent, one-time occurrence. But when it happens

    continuously in sync with repetitive operations like

    wig-wag or strobe, it's another matter.



    This is a new condition that has not yet be addressed

    by codification . . . the manufacturers of guilty

    product would do well to jump on this and fix it

    before the bureaucrats decide to step in and help.

   Bob . . .

rwtalbot

Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 1
Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Aeroled wiring

 	  nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: 	
		  At 08:35 AM 1/8/2013, you wrote:



    The 'tick' cited by several writers is probably

    a conducted, fast rise current transient coming

    out on the power lines. This is a very low energy

    event at an audio rate and with imperceptible

    radio frequency components.



 	




Bob, forgive me for coming into this thread late.  I also have been having issues with an Aeroleds setup in my RV-7A.  I used to have the Whelen System 7 that Vans sold, but the powerpack failed and I decided to install these instead.



The noise I have is characterised by:

1.Noticeable dead spot from signals to the rear (at least prior to sorting out a ground as indicated below)

2.Noise on all comm frequencies caused by the NAV lights.  It does not break squelch but can be heard when the squelch is disengaged and the navs turned on

3.Reduction in effective range of the Comms over my Whelen System 7.  I used to be able to get the ATIS on my home field from 50nm and 7000â€™.  I still can with the aeroleds turned off.  If they are on I get nothing until I turn the lights off.

4.I can hear Nav and strobe noise in weak comm signals.

5.Navs + Strobe is even worse

6.The whole setup does not compair favourably to Whelen.



I use my aircraft for IFR/night etc and have over 500 hours in four years or so, so probably fairly aware of how the systems should work.



I spent a few hours in the hanger looking at my Aeroleds on the weekend and some more yesterday.  I came to a few conclusions:



1.I have/had wired them as per the instructions.  

2.I did find that the tail light was not properly grounded between the case and the black ground wire so I fixed that and it did reduce the noise but still not to where I am happy.  (took for a test flight)

3.The wiring scheme suggested by Aeroleds actually looks like it would causes a ground loop between the airframe and the shield  (when grounding both ends of the shield) .  When connected on the Left wing it reduces the pop from the strobe on right and tail it appears to make no difference.

4.The tail nav is by far the noisiest and virtually impossible to quiet down.  I assume because it has a lot more LEDs in it.  I reduced noise by disconnecting the ground wire entirely (runs to my aft fuselage bulkhead).  This seems to imply that local grounding is required.  I may need to look at how I can achieve that with my rudder.

5.The Green (RHS) nav light is the next noisiest, followed by the red one (LHS).  Both of these are very quiet in comparison.

6.Shortening the ground lead at the light end is not only impractical it makes little difference.

7.One of these lights causes minimal noise, the combined effect adds up.  Worst case is all three plugged in and nav + strobe.

8.Noise can be heard using a portable Airband radio with the squelch disabled.  In some cases the lights will break squelch but not often and not with the wiring as per the instructions

9.Noise is still present and can be clearly heard in weak signals (like listening to Sydney Centre on the ground).

10.My tail light gets extremely hot in operation. (burn your hands hot)



I had been of the opinion that the noise was most likely caused by a poorly filtered switch mode power supply injecting noise back into the power system.  That coupled with the very fast rise time from the strobes when they are turned on leads to the issues.  What surprised me was that with my handheld radio I could easily receive the signal when I placed the antenna near the lights, and also when the antenna was placed near my belly mounted Comm antennas.



Getting the wiring correct seems to virtually eliminate the emitted RFI.  You must be very close to the wing light fixtures with the portable antenna.  The tail light is worse but noticably better when grounded.  



Being IFR I have a few other issues:



What about VOR, MKR, GPS etc?

How much of this noise could cause issues in electronics such as EFIS?

What are these things doing to the airframe ground and could it play havoc with my WX-500 storm scope?  I have not noticed any strikes detected but it could perhaps reduce its range or accuracy - especially as the antenna is in the return path from the tail strobe.

What happens when the grounds become ineffective due to corrosion under the screws etc?



Richard

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:14 am Post subject: Aeroled wiring

At 09:04 PM 1/13/2013, you wrote:

 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rwtalbot" <richard(at)talbots.net.au>



 The noise I have is characterised by:

 1.Noticeable dead spot from signals to the rear (at least prior to sorting out a ground as indicated below)

 2.Noise on all comm frequencies caused by the NAV lights.  It does not break squelch but can be heard when the squelch is disengaged and the navs turned on

 3.Reduction in effective range of the Comms over my Whelen System 7.  I used to be able to get the ATIS on my home field from 50nm and 7000â€™.  I still can with the aeroleds turned off.  If they are on I get nothing until I turn the lights off.

 4.I can hear Nav and strobe noise in weak comm signals.

 5.Navs + Strobe is even worse

 6.The whole setup does not compair favourably to Whelen.



 I use my aircraft for IFR/night etc and have over 500 hours in four years or so, so probably fairly aware of how the systems should work.



 

   Richard,



   Thanks for the detailed and concise description of your

   experience and observations. You've confirmed my skepticism

   as to the validity of their DO-160/TSO qualification. Looking

   at the installation manual for one of their nav/strobe

   combo products we find this wiring diagram:

 [img]cid:.0[/img]



 

     This 'smells' . . . If I had proposed a product that REQUIRED

     such accommodation by the system integrator/installer, I would

     have been summoned to the boss' office for a come-to-jesus-meeting.

     More importantly, I'm not sure just how I could take such a product

     to the EMC lab for testing with shielded hookup wires. If one places

     a conducted emissions probe over a shielded wire, it is EXPECTED

     that measured energies will be attenuated with respect to that

     which flows on the wires. I'd really like to read their EMC

     report. If the system just barely passed conducted EMC emissions

     with a shield, what would they have measured without the shield

     or at the end of the shield where the wire break out to hook

     up to the rest of the airplane?



     I've written, observed and/or orchestrated hundreds of DO-160

     EMC qualification programs . . . the experiences of List

     members combined with AEROLED's published installation

     requirements suggests that somebody dropped the ball for

     getting this product to market.



 

 I spent a few hours in the hanger looking at my Aeroleds on the weekend and some more yesterday.  I came to a few conclusions:



 1.I have/had wired them as per the instructions.  

 2.I did find that the tail light was not properly grounded between the case and the black ground wire so I fixed that and it did reduce the noise but still not to where I am happy.  (took for a test flight)

 3.The wiring scheme suggested by Aeroleds actually looks like it would causes a ground loop between the airframe and the shield  (when grounding both ends of the shield) .  When connected on the Left wing it reduces the pop from the strobe on right and tail it appears to make no difference.

 4.The tail nav is by far the noisiest and virtually impossible to quiet down.  I assume because it has a lot more LEDs in it.  I reduced noise by disconnecting the ground wire entirely (runs to my aft fuselage bulkhead).  This seems to imply that local grounding is required.  I may need to look at how I can achieve that with my rudder.

 5.The Green (RHS) nav light is the next noisiest, followed by the red one (LHS).  Both of these are very quiet in comparison.

 6.Shortening the ground lead at the light end is not only impractical it makes little difference.

 7.One of these lights causes minimal noise, the combined effect adds up.  Worst case is all three plugged in and nav + strobe.

 8.Noise can be heard using a portable Airband radio with the squelch disabled.  In some cases the lights will break squelch but not often and not with the wiring as per the instructions

 9.Noise is still present and can be clearly heard in weak signals (like listening to Sydney Centre on the ground).

 10.My tail light gets extremely hot in operation. (burn your hands hot)



 I had been of the opinion that the noise was most likely caused by a poorly filtered switch mode power supply injecting noise back into the power system.  That coupled with the very fast rise time from the strobes when they are turned on leads to the issues.  What surprised me was that with my handheld radio I could easily receive the signal when I placed the antenna near the lights, and also when the antenna was placed near my belly mounted Comm antennas.



 Getting the wiring correct seems to virtually eliminate the emitted RFI.  You must be very close to the wing light fixtures with the portable antenna.  The tail light is worse but noticably better when grounded.



    Interesting observations. I wonder how they might

    have been different in a Glasair or a Pulsar?  



 Being IFR I have a few other issues:



 What about VOR, MKR, GPS etc?



    The noises you've wrestle with are VHF RF in nature

    and probably represent a similar threat to VOR. Not so

    much Marker Beacons which are VERY weak receivers

    an STRONG signals. GPS . . . dunno . . . like I wrote,

    I'd REALLY like to see their EMC lab test report.



 How much of this noise could cause issues in electronics such as EFIS?



    Less likely but again, without a the blessing of a

    golden test report by a qualified EMC lab, we're not

    sure that other manifestations of emitted energy DO

    NOT exist.



 What are these things doing to the airframe ground and could it play havoc with my WX-500 storm scope? I have not noticed any strikes detected but it could perhaps reduce its range or accuracy - especially as the antenna is in the return path from the tail strobe.



    Good question. Don't know. If ONE aspect of the DO-160

    qualification protocols are suspect, we have no basis

    for assuming that other protocols are not similarly

    compromised.



 What happens when the grounds become ineffective due to corrosion under the screws etc?



    Gas tight original installation should preclude

    drifts of performance with age.



    I think these products need to be looked at again

    for a second opinion as to the validity of their

    TSO.



 

   Bob . . .

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Mike Whisky

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 336
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:08 am Post subject: Re: Aeroled wiring

Continuous noise on COM 1 when nav lights are on. 

I have the same issue. My Aeroleds transmit a signal which is picked up on my COM 1 GNS430W but not on the SL30. I wrote to Aeroleds and they replaced the units with a newer version. However I only sent them the wingtip nav/strobe lights and not the nav/strobe taillight. The problem is not audiable on ground with 1000 RPM but appears latest during take-off run.  



In order to solve my issue I was wondering if your filters will solve it and where to order them. 

Regards

Mike

_________________
RV-10 builder (flying)
#511

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:34 am Post subject: Aeroled wiring

At 05:08 AM 6/29/2014, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Continuous noise on COM 1 when nav lights are on.

I have the same issue. My Aeroleds transmit a signal which is picked 

up on my COM 1 GNS430W but not on the SL30. I wrote to Aeroleds and 

they replaced the units with a newer version. However I only sent 

them the wingtip nav/strobe lights and not the nav/strobe taillight. 

The problem is not audiable on ground with 1000 RPM but appears 

latest during take-off run.



In order to solve my issue I was wondering if your filters will 

solve it and where to order them.


	


   The filter kit I used to offer was tailored to

   a specific power supply that was popularly used

   in some DIY LED lighting installations.



http://tinyurl.com/kqfw5pn



   It would probably work with other products but

   it would be a bit messy . . . and they're

   out of production.



   If AEROLED was able to fix the wing-tip lights,

   why not the tail? They're in the business of

   supplying holy-watered products for aircraft.

   They, of all folks, should know what it takes

   to bring your installation up to minimal design

   goals.



   Bob . . .

Mike Whisky

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 336
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Aeroled wiring

Thanks Bob

To be fair I didn't send them the tail light as I was under the assumption that the noise is caused by the wingtip lights. One of Aeroleds suggestion was to install a piece of aluminum in the RV wingtips that covers the back of the installation and route ground wire from that piece to the nearest structure. 

I agree that I would expect a product like this to function noise free without having to add this installation. 



Regards

Michael

_________________
RV-10 builder (flying)
#511

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