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Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
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 Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:23 pm Post subject: Aileron trim-drag question |
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Kolb Friends –
Been flying my Mark-3 for a while now (2002), and over the years have strived tried to clean up various airframe details to reduce drag. (Stuff like aileron gap seals, gear leg fairings, etc.)
My Kolb requires aileron trim, for straight-and-level flight. I currently use the proven “John Hauck” method for aileron trim – a bungee around the control stick, pulling the stick to one side. Works great, and is cockpit adjustable. But I’ve been thinking of “upgrading” this system in favor of a proper trim tab on one of the ailerons, to fix my trim requirement.
I’ve been wondering this: Would installing an aileron trim tab cause any MORE or LESS drag than the bungee cord system?
Intuitively, I think the drag effect would be equal. But I wanted to hear what the more-experienced minds of my fellow Kolb folk think.
Many thanks –
Dennis Kirby
Mark-3, 912ul, Powerfin-72 in
Sandia Park, NM
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:33 pm Post subject: Aileron trim-drag question |
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I’ve been wondering this: Would installing an aileron trim tab cause any MORE or LESS drag than the bungee cord system?
Intuitively, I think the drag effect would be equal. But I wanted to hear what the more-experienced minds of my fellow Kolb folk think.
Many thanks –
Dennis Kirby | Quote: | | If there is any difference, doubt it would be measureable. Why drill holes in the aileron and pop rivets when you already have an infinitely adjustable roll trim system? john hmkIII |
01
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
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t41pilot
Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 38
Location: Howard City, Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:14 am Post subject: Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
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My Firefly needed aileron trim as well. It was only a problem at full or cruise throttle settings so may be a P-Factor thing. At reduced throttle and approach speeds, the ailerons felt fine. I opted for a trim tab because I don't have much room in my cockpit area. I noticed an immediate improvement. The angle on the tab was a guess to start with and I just used test flights to get it dialed in. It's attached with #6 screws right now. I'm pretty much there now and it ended up at the same angle as my rudder tab. I think it's in the neighborhood of 22 to 25 degrees. I'll attach it permanently after I paint it....next spring. It's the dead of winter here right now. My tab is the width of 1 rib bay but a longer narrower tab could be used and would give more attach points if you so desired. I was scared while drilling the ribs that the drill bit would slip and I would ruin my cover job but managed without incident. Just slow and careful is the rule here with new bullet tip drill bit. In conclusion, I'm glad I did it. My only regret is that I needed a tab at all. Was it a building error or P-factor? I'm don't know but am not gointg to worry about it. The plane flies well now. It's possible I may have lost a mph or 2 but my firefly is so light and quick that I can't tell for sure since I'm affected by winds more than you. I have an install picture but am having trouble getting it small enough to post here. I'll work on that. Meanwhile, I can E-mail one to you if you are interested.
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Gregg Kaat
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t41pilot
Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 38
Location: Howard City, Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
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Here's the pic of my Tab. I'll paint to match in the spring
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Gregg Kaat
2011 Firefly |
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lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:46 am Post subject: Aileron trim-drag question |
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Fireflies must be different than Firestars, Mine is pointed in the other direction. You probably should make sure that you need the elevator to go up or down before you fasten it in a permanent fashion.Larry
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 11:32 AM, t41pilot <t41pilot(at)frontier.com (t41pilot(at)frontier.com)> wrote:
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If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.
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t41pilot
Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 38
Location: Howard City, Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
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Not sure what you meant by elevator up or down. This is an aileron trim tab. I determined what direction the ailerons needed to move before I made the tab to achieve the desired trim. The tab can be mounted up or down as long as the proper aileron side is chosen to do the type of mount you desire and the aileron deflects in the direction desired. In my case, I would achieve the same result with a downward pointing tab mounted on the opposite aileron. It may be a matter of what is more visually appealing to a person. The plane has already flown in the current configuration and my trim problem was solved. I just haven't got it mounted permanently yet. It's possible that a tab may work better in one configuration as compared with the other but an engineer would have to help with that. I don't know that answer.
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Gregg Kaat
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lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:19 pm Post subject: Aileron trim-drag question |
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Oops, I thought that it was an elevator. You are of course correct. ( The sun was shining on my computer screen and I couldn't see the screen clearly. You believe that?)Larry
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 1:51 PM, t41pilot <t41pilot(at)frontier.com (t41pilot(at)frontier.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "t41pilot" <t41pilot(at)frontier.com (t41pilot(at)frontier.com)>
Not sure what you meant by elevator up or down. This is an aileron trim tab. I determined what direction the ailerons needed to move before I made the tab to achieve the desired trim. The tab can be mounted up or down as long as the proper aileron side is chosen to do the type of mount you desire and the aileron deflects in the direction desired. In my case, I would achieve the same result with a downward pointing tab mounted on the opposite aileron. It may be a matter of what is more visually appealing to a person. The plane has already flown in the current configuration and my trim problem was solved. I just haven't got it mounted permanently yet. It's possible that a tab may work better in one configuration as compared with the other but an engineer would have to help with that. I don't know that answer.
--------
Gregg Kaat
2011 Firefly
Read this topic online here:
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:49 pm Post subject: Aileron trim-drag question |
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My Ultrastar was off in roll trim when I bought it. The top cross tube on the cage was visibly bent, not enough to be unsafe but enough to reduce the left wing incidence. I fixed it by making a new universal joint block (on the US the U-joint is at the main spar) with one hole offset about 1/8". Now the wings are even and the plane flies straight.
My point in relating this is that if the roll trim is off, this is a simple way to fix it without adding a trim tab.
-Dana
--
The only correct outcome to an armed robbery attempt is a dead armed robber.
[quote][b]
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:14 am Post subject: Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
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Gregg,
I think you will find a trim tab to be more effective (and thus can be smaller and/or bent at less angle) if it is bent into the high pressure airstream (below the wing instead of above the wing). Of course to get the aileron bias you want it would have to be mounted on opposite aileron.
do not archive
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Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
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racerjerry
Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
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To diagnose the reason for need of an aileron trim tab, beg/buy/borrow a digital level and tape it to a straight 5-foot wooden furring strip. If you have a problem that requires aileron trim; the reason is that either that the wing has a built-in twist or there is a slight difference in incidence between the two wings. Digital levels are neat because you can zero at any point and directly observe any difference when checking incidence at any point along the wing.
I have seen a lot of wings with an unintentional built-in twist. If both wings were built with the same degree of twist, you would probably never know the difference. The problem is that if your construction table has a built-in twist, your two wings will be built with a twist in the opposite direction of each other; guaranteeing a roll trim problem.
I was lucky to have acquired a digital level to set up a table for wing assembly. I was also lucky to have a cast iron bench and two long lengths of straight 3 x 3 square tubing to form a base for my plywood table. For anything lass rigid, during wing assembly, you need to recheck the table each day end-for-end to make sure one of your kids didn’t bump the table.
Also, there is nothing better than using a digital level when drilling that final hole at the wig root tab that sets wing incidence forever.
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
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I doubt that you are going to add much drag regardless of how you do it, so do it the way you want to. My preference to was to make an easily adjustable trim tab and adjust it for either solo or a passenger as part of my preflight. Simple and after a number of years, very reliable. In the link it still shows the original setup, I modified it with large nylon R/C aircraft hinges, & I like it much better now.
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg6.htm
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Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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t41pilot
Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 38
Location: Howard City, Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Aileron trim-drag question |
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It's certainly possible that one or the other wing could have a twist. This was my first aircraft build. The wing halves were actually built in a bedroom of my house last winter on a set of heavy sawhorses. My basement has a 90 deg turn in the stairway so couldn't get wings built down there. I actually had to bring my drag struts through the window for install since they had to fit through a little guide tube on the inboard steel ribs. My leading edges on the wings line up perfectly and of course the trailing edges attach at the U joint. Doesn't mean that there still couldn't be a problem with incidence. I can even see how twist could be induced during the covering process with too much shrinking. I think I could fix an incidence problem using Dana's method but twist sounds like a teardown to me. The plane flies well now with the tab so I'll start the summer with that and then look into seeing if I can fix anything. The key will be if I go to a get together somewhere and somebody can give me some help looking it over.
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Gregg Kaat
2011 Firefly |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:03 am Post subject: Aileron trim-drag question |
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The plane flies well now with the tab so I'll start the summer with that
and then look into seeing if I can fix anything.
Gregg Kaat
2011 Firefly
Seems to me you fixed the problem with the trim tab. Most airplanes use
trim tabs on all three axes.
I have a rudder trim tab on my MKIII. Pitch and roll trim pressures are
relieved with forced trim.
My Ultrastar and Firestar had tabs on all three axes.
There are many, many things that can cause a wing to fly more or less than
its partner. Our homebuilt airplanes constructed by amateurs are not
precision machines. Neither am I.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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rlaird
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:40 am Post subject: Aileron trim-drag question |
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So, where do you put the trim tabs on YOU, John? 
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:03 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:
[quote]There are many, many things that can cause a wing to fly more or less than
its partner. Our homebuilt airplanes constructed by amateurs are not
precision machines. Neither am I.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:04 am Post subject: Aileron trim-drag question |
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You'll never guess.
I flew the MKIII a half bubble out of trim for many, many hours, before coming up with a rudder trim tab that would correct the adverse yaw. Got the MKIII flying in trim, but I have always been a half bubble out.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
So, where do you put the trim tabs on YOU, John?
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:03 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:
There are many, many things that can cause a wing to fly more or less than
its partner. Our homebuilt airplanes constructed by amateurs are not
precision machines. Neither am I.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
[quote] [b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:30 am Post subject: Aileron trim-drag question |
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What is done is done. I had a roll trim issue on my VW powered MKIIIC but decided to fix it with the optional Kolb adjustable rear attachment fitting. You move washers around till it flies the way you want it. No extra trim tab needed. I personally feel you will have less drag if the wings arealignedproperly but I can't prove it.
Worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW POwered MKIIIC
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:45 AM, t41pilot <t41pilot(at)frontier.com (t41pilot(at)frontier.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "t41pilot" <t41pilot(at)frontier.com (t41pilot(at)frontier.com)>
It's certainly possible that one or the other wing could have a twist. This was my first aircraft build. The wing halves were actually built in a bedroom of my house last winter on a set of heavy sawhorses. My basement has a 90 deg turn in the stairway so couldn't get wings built down there. I actually had to bring my drag struts through the window for install since they had to fit through a little guide tube on the inboard steel ribs. My leading edges on the wings line up perfectly and of course the trailing edges attach at the U joint. Doesn't mean that there still couldn't be a problem with incidence. I can even see how twist could be induced during the covering process with too much shrinking. I think I could fix an incidence problem using Dana's method but twist sounds like a teardown to me. The plane flies well now with the tab so I'll start the summer with that and then look into seeing if I can fix anything. The key will be if I go to a get together somewhere and !
somebody can give me some help looking it over.
--------
Gregg Kaat
2011 Firefly
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392635#392635
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byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:43 pm Post subject: Aileron trim-drag question |
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| Quote: | I have flown with john and never saw a trim tab on him.. only his plane
BUT------ I did see photos of Beauford with VG’s on his helmet!!!
lol boyd
do not archive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So, where do you put the trim tabs on YOU, John?
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:03 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | There are many, many things that can cause a wing to fly more or less than
its partner. Our homebuilt airplanes constructed by amateurs are not
precision machines. Neither am I.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
|
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[quote][b]
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beauford173(at)tampabay.r
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:05 pm Post subject: Aileron trim-drag question |
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Brother Boyd …
Have been following this string about aileron trim and drag with interest…but some detachment.
Fer what it’s worth, a small aileron tab worked fine for me on the trim… took out almost all of the
work on my oversize fifteen inch ailerons…my scrawny arms applauded the help.
The matter of aileron drag… is much more complex and well beyond the scope of ‘ol Beauford’s experience with the Fly. From where I sit, analyzing
the nuances of aileron drag on a Fire Fly is roughly akin to trying to hone a fine edge on an Angus heifer. Those of you fortunate enough to
operate the high speed, low drag Kolbs are breathing different air and talking a different language…
In my humble thinking, to mention “drag” in the same sentence with “FireFly” seems unnecessary.. My chubby 22 ft wings waddle through the atmosphere at roughly the same angle as a loosely held table knife making its way through a jar of extra-crunchy JIF peanut butter. From my observations, the Kleenex Kolb shares its drag coefficient with the average full-rigged schooner. What I laughingly refer to as my “cruise” performance is a non-issue. If the evil 447 were to surrender abruptly (again) and a “glide” were to ensue, I believe I could strap a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood across my somewhat sunken chest and not see an appreciable change in the pre-impact trajectory of my machine toward its final home in the grit. Based on my playing with it, I don’t think there are enough VG’s on the planet (or my helmet) to significantly re-locate the outcome. For those who are curious, it has been my flabby 220 lb. experience that the difference between a “glide” and a screaming “dive” in a silent FireFly is about three mph IAS… but who’s counting.
Anyway… It is indeed a worthy thread… and I applaud those of us who earnestly seek to outwit the laws of physics for an extra knot or so…
I enjoy the Kleenex Fly immensely… and always marvel when it enthusiastically lifts me arse off the turf. Kolb on…!
…worth what ye paid fer it…
beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL
If you forward this e-mail, please remove my name before sending it... I promise to do the same for you...
Thanks...
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of b young
Subject: Re: Aileron trim-drag question
[quote]
I have flown with john and never saw a trim tab on him.. only his plane
BUT------ I did see photos of Beauford with VG’s on his helmet!!!
lol boyd
do not archive
| Quote: | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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So, where do you put the trim tabs on YOU, John?
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:03 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:
There are many, many things that can cause a wing to fly more or less than
its partner. Our homebuilt airplanes constructed by amateurs are not
precision machines. Neither am I.
[b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:20 pm Post subject: Aileron trim-drag question |
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I enjoy the Kleenex Fly immensely… and always marvel when it enthusiastically lifts me arse off the turf. Kolb on…!
…worth what ye paid fer it…
beauford
FF-076
Brandon, FL | Quote: | | Me too! I have personally witnessed Beauford commit aviation in his Kleenex Kolb. It is a blur in the sky. A screaming banshee. A wonderful feeling. I committed got out the mkIII, flew 11 miles to 08A, Wetumpka Airport, got 10 gals of 100LL, shot an approach on the N/S grass strip, the headed back to Gantt International Airport. Felt good, although I was terribly rusty after a two month period without flying. First time I rolled out the mkIII since returning from the Kolb Homecoming the middle of Nov. john h |
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:30 pm Post subject: Aileron trim-drag question |
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Gonna have to start proof reading before I hit the send button.
Should have read:
A wonderful feeling. I committed aviation this afternoon. Pushed out the MKIII, …………..
john
| Quote: | | A wonderful feeling. I committed got out the mkIII, flew 11 miles to 08A, Wetumpka Airport, got 10 gals of 100LL, shot an approach on the N/S grass strip, the headed back to Gantt International Airport. Felt good, although I was terribly rusty after a two month period without flying. First time I rolled out the mkIII since returning from the Kolb Homecoming the middle of Nov. john hmkIIITitus, Alabama - The Kolb-List Email Forum -A wonderful feeling. I committed got out the mkIII, flew 11 miles to 08A, Wetumpka Airport, got 10 gals of 100LL, shot an approach on the N/S grass strip, the headed back to Gantt International Airport. Felt good, although I was terribly rusty after a two month period without flying. First time I rolled out the mkIII since returning from the Kolb Homecoming the middle of Nov. |
0 | Quote: | | A wonderful feeling. I committed got out the mkIII, flew 11 miles to 08A, Wetumpka Airport, got 10 gals of 100LL, shot an approach on the N/S grass strip, the headed back to Gantt International Airport. Felt good, although I was terribly rusty after a two month period without flying. First time I rolled out the mkIII since returning from the Kolb Homecoming the middle of Nov. |
1 | Quote: | | A wonderful feeling. I committed got out the mkIII, flew 11 miles to 08A, Wetumpka Airport, got 10 gals of 100LL, shot an approach on the N/S grass strip, the headed back to Gantt International Airport. Felt good, although I was terribly rusty after a two month period without flying. First time I rolled out the mkIII since returning from the Kolb Homecoming the middle of Nov. |
2 | Quote: | | A wonderful feeling. I committed got out the mkIII, flew 11 miles to 08A, Wetumpka Airport, got 10 gals of 100LL, shot an approach on the N/S grass strip, the headed back to Gantt International Airport. Felt good, although I was terribly rusty after a two month period without flying. First time I rolled out the mkIII since returning from the Kolb Homecoming the middle of Nov. |
3 | Quote: | | A wonderful feeling. I committed got out the mkIII, flew 11 miles to 08A, Wetumpka Airport, got 10 gals of 100LL, shot an approach on the N/S grass strip, the headed back to Gantt International Airport. Felt good, although I was terribly rusty after a two month period without flying. First time I rolled out the mkIII since returning from the Kolb Homecoming the middle of Nov. |
4 | Quote: | | A wonderful feeling. I committed got out the mkIII, flew 11 miles to 08A, Wetumpka Airport, got 10 gals of 100LL, shot an approach on the N/S grass strip, the headed back to Gantt International Airport. Felt good, although I was terribly rusty after a two month period without flying. First time I rolled out the mkIII since returning from the Kolb Homecoming the middle of Nov. |
5 | Quote: | | A wonderful feeling. I committed got out the mkIII, flew 11 miles to 08A, Wetumpka Airport, got 10 gals of 100LL, shot an approach on the N/S grass strip, the headed back to Gantt International Airport. Felt good, although I was terribly rusty after a two month period without flying. First time I rolled out the mkIII since returning from the Kolb Homecoming the middle of Nov. |
6 | Quote: | | A wonderful feeling. I committed got out the mkIII, flew 11 miles to 08A, Wetumpka Airport, got 10 gals of 100LL, shot an approach on the N/S grass strip, the headed back to Gantt International Airport. Felt good, although I was terribly rusty after a two month period without flying. First time I rolled out the mkIII since returning from the Kolb Homecoming the middle of Nov. |
7 | Quote: | | A wonderful feeling. I committed got out the mkIII, flew 11 miles to 08A, Wetumpka Airport, got 10 gals of 100LL, shot an approach on the N/S grass strip, the headed back to Gantt International Airport. Felt good, although I was terribly rusty after a two month period without flying. First time I rolled out the mkIII since returning from the Kolb Homecoming the middle of Nov. |
8 | Quote: | | A wonderful feeling. I committed got out the mkIII, flew 11 miles to 08A, Wetumpka Airport, got 10 gals of 100LL, shot an approach on the N/S grass strip, the headed back to Gantt International Airport. Felt good, although I was terribly rusty after a two month period without flying. First time I rolled out the mkIII since returning from the Kolb Homecoming the middle of Nov. |
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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