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LED landing light filter experiment

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:30 am Post subject: LED landing light filter experiment

A reader sent me a pair of high intensity LED fixtures after he

 discovered that they generated an unacceptable radio noise level.



  http://tinyurl.com/aytljbg



 I jury-rigged a filter from components I use on the BuckPuk supplies

 and mounted it to the back of the fixture on short leads.



 [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20130123131905.01e43b70(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img] 



 

 The reduction of noise at 130 MHz is pronounced. I estimate

 30 dB or better. Unfortunately, I've misplaced my set of

 precision attenuators so I'm unable to make a quantitative

  A vs. B comparison for effectiveness of the filter.



 Fortunately, they're cheap. I've ordered some that should be

 in early next week. I can put some real numbers on the

 experiment then.



 The goal is to head off the noise effects at the source. Wiring

 to the airplane will be ordinary, off-the-spool unshielded wire.

 When I'm ready to send these back to try on his airplane, I'll

 try them out on my '87 GMC truck to see how they compare with the stock

 headlights.



 Watch this space.



 

   Bob . . .

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james(at)etravel.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:56 am Post subject: LED landing light filter experiment

Nice work Bob. Â Do you mind me asking... what is about these LED lights that makes them so noisy? Â In my head, LEDs are completely inert and therefore wouldn't create any interference.



 On 23 January 2013 19:28, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     A reader sent me a pair of high intensity LED fixtures after he

 discovered that they generated an unacceptable radio noise level.



  http://tinyurl.com/aytljbg



 I jury-rigged a filter from components I use on the BuckPuk supplies

 and mounted it to the back of the fixture on short leads.



 [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20130123131905.01e43b70(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img] 



 

 The reduction of noise at 130 MHz is pronounced. I estimate

 30 dB or better. Unfortunately, I've misplaced my set of

 precision attenuators so I'm unable to make a quantitative

 Â A vs. B comparison for effectiveness of the filter.



 Fortunately, they're cheap. I've ordered some that should be

 in early next week. I can put some real numbers on the

 experiment then.



 The goal is to head off the noise effects at the source. Wiring

 to the airplane will be ordinary, off-the-spool unshielded wire.

 When I'm ready to send these back to try on his airplane, I'll

 try them out on my '87 GMC truck to see how they compare with the stock

 headlights.



 Watch this space.



 

 Â  Bob . . .

9bf4435.jpg

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Filesize:

156.93 KB

Viewed:

6287 Time(s)

uuccio(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:25 pm Post subject: LED landing light filter experiment

Hi Bob,

If you get satisfactory results from this, I for one would be very interested. 

Sacha





On 23/gen/2013, at 19:28, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:



[quote]  A reader sent me a pair of high intensity LED fixtures after he

 discovered that they generated an unacceptable radio noise level.



  http://tinyurl.com/aytljbg



 I jury-rigged a filter from components I use on the BuckPuk supplies

 and mounted it to the back of the fixture on short leads.



 <9bf4435.jpg> 



 

 The reduction of noise at 130 MHz is pronounced. I estimate

 30 dB or better. Unfortunately, I've misplaced my set of

 precision attenuators so I'm unable to make a quantitative

  A vs. B comparison for effectiveness of the filter.



 Fortunately, they're cheap. I've ordered some that should be

 in early next week. I can put some real numbers on the

 experiment then.



 The goal is to head off the noise effects at the source. Wiring

 to the airplane will be ordinary, off-the-spool unshielded wire.

 When I'm ready to send these back to try on his airplane, I'll

 try them out on my '87 GMC truck to see how they compare with the stock

 headlights.



 Watch this space.



 

   Bob . . .  

[b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:09 pm Post subject: LED landing light filter experiment

At 02:24 PM 1/23/2013, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi Bob,

If you get satisfactory results from this, I for one would be very 

interested.

Sacha




	


   Whether or not this particular configuration is

   the dragon slayer remains to be seen . . . but

   the dragon will be slain.



   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:09 pm Post subject: LED landing light filter experiment

At 01:54 PM 1/23/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Nice work Bob. Â Do you mind me asking... what is about these LED lights that makes them so noisy? Â In my head, LEDs are completely inert and therefore wouldn't create any interference.

 	


   You are, of course, correct. The LEDs are very quiet.

   Not zero noise . . . the electrical activity in the

   light emitting junction is pretty frenetic. But

   the aperture (antenna area) is very tiny so it's

   hard to detect . . . much less a risk for a noise

   source.



   The problem is that LEDs are CURRENT operated

   devices. You're probably familiar with the ubiquitous

   resistor wired in series with an LED to SET the

   current flowing through the device. To light an

   red LED (typical voltage drop on the order of

   2 volts) from a 14v bus, you have to pick a resistor

   that causes the desired LED current to flow (30 mA) 

   with a DROP of 12 volts. This means that the series

   resistor dissipates 6 TIMES as much energy as the

   LED . . . but it's so small as to be insignificant.



   POWER LEDs will demand much larger current values.

   Consider this device



  http://tinyurl.com/a2sggv4



   which is rated at 10 watts. Note that it's rated

   to operate at 3 amps so one would guess that

   the operating voltage is about 3.3 volts (typical

   for white). So, using a simple series resistor

   for 14 volt systems would dissipate 30 watts . . .

   NOT insignificant.



   The elegant solution demands a special kind of

   DC to DC converter. VARIABLE voltage input

   (say 10 to 16 volts) and CONSTANT current

   output (3 A). Now, we can hook perhaps 3 to

   6 lamps in series (10 to 20 volt operation)

   but at a constant current.



   This bit of electronic magic is ALWAYS 

   noisy. Your computer, tv, and countless

   other appliances have similar power supplies

   but they're generally qualified to FCC part

   15 rules for expected but limited emissions.

   No so with LED lamp fixtures from Fuzzy Joe's

   Motorcycle shop . . . or  24xydiy.com either.



   We had some discussions here on the list about

   LED position lights wherein a number of

   builders using a particular DIY kit were

   experiencing radio noise from the LuxDrive

   power supplies recommended for the installation.



   This prompted development of the filtered version

   of the LuxDrive part which I've offered now

   for several years



   



   This board is the foundation for the experimental filter

   I crafted for the aforementioned experiment. This jeeped

   experiment may not be the ideal way to go for an on-purpose

   filter but then, the then, the boards are already fabricated

   and in stock.



   Our very own Eric Jones offers an LED based tail light



  http://tinyurl.com/b377jtv



   Which has enjoyed the benefits of creative tailoring to

   the task and generates no objectionable noises.



 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

wynaire(at)citlink.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:16 am Post subject: LED landing light filter experiment

Bob:

 1. Why do we LED DIY-fer's need an LED driver for a  12 vdc [forward voltage] LED [10 Watt] when we have a clean 12 vdc source  [aircraft]?

 Answering my own question, maybe: Is it primarily  to provide minimum ripple current to the driven LED?

  

 2. What is the simplest way to detect HF noise from  an LED; maybe an FM or AM  radio receiver, or better yet, an aircraft  nav/com receiver?  

 Trying to KIS.. 

 Thanks in advance,

 Mike W

 Moab

 *********

 [quote]   ---

Bob McC

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:04 am Post subject: LED landing light filter experiment

Because an LED is not a voltage driven device. It is a current driven device. The required "driver" is a current source. If your 10 watt LED has a forward voltage drop of 2 volts and is designed to be driven by lets say 5 amps of current then without a current driver to regulate that current you would need to add a resistor to drop the other 10 volts of your 12 volt source. This means 10 volts being dropped by 5 amps through a resistor or 50 watts of heat. (Pretty big HOT resistor) So much for the power saving of the LED. Your "10 watt" LED is now consuming 60 watts. If you use a "driver" to regulate the current the losses within the driver are minimal and your 10 watt LED consumes approximatly 10 watts. Also with a resistor to regulate current what happens when your voltage is 14.5 being supported by the alternator? Now you power consumption goes even higher and you risk overdriving the LED wheras with a "driver" the current remains constant at the design level.



Bob McC



(I'm sure the "other" Bob can explain it better, but that's the jist of it.) 

From: wynaire(at)citlink.net

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: LED landing light filter experiment

Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 11:14:30 -0700



       Bob:

 1. Why do we LED DIY-fer's need an LED driver for a  12 vdc [forward voltage] LED [10 Watt] when we have a clean 12 vdc source  [aircraft]?

 Answering my own question, maybe: Is it primarily  to provide minimum ripple current to the driven LED?

  

 2. What is the simplest way to detect HF noise from  an LED; maybe an FM or AM  radio receiver, or better yet, an aircraft  nav/com receiver?  

 Trying to KIS.. 

 Thanks in advance,

 Mike W

 Moab

 *********

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
(just starting)

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:28 pm Post subject: LED landing light filter experiment

 	  Quote: 	
		   

  

 2. What is the simplest way to detect HF noise from an LED; maybe an FM or AM  radio receiver, or better yet, an aircraft nav/com receiver?  

 Trying to KIS.. 	


    There was a time when an airplane might have

    several kinds of receivers vulnerable to radiated

    and conducted signals from potential antagonists.

    In order of spectrum they would have included

    ADF/AM Broadcast receivers, Loran, HF communications,

    Marker Beacon, VOR/LOC, VHF Comm, Glideslope

    all topped off with DME, transponders and GPS.



    That list is certainly diminished. Most OBAM

    builders radios of interest are limited to

    VOR/LOC, VHF Comm, Glideslope, Xpndr and

    GPS.  Each potential victim presents a unique

    signature and magnitude for immunity to extraneous

    signals.



    The easiest way to test for vulnerability is

    in flight and testing each potential victim

    at the fringes of its normal performance range.

    See if turning the antagonist on/off makes any

    observable difference in performance.



    This real-life/in-situ A-B comparison requires

    no calibration of measurement. Obviously, the

    hand held or bench receiver with some sort of

    'sniffer' antenna can be used to see if any noise

    can be detected . . . but the noise being heard

    may not be so strong as to be significant.



    The tests I'm performing now use a filtered and

    an unfiltered LED assembly. The detector is a full

    coverage communications receiver with a precision

    attenuator between the receiver and the sense

    antenna. The filtered lamp assembly is fired up

    and a noise level measurement taken on the receiver's

    strength meter. I then turn on the unfiltered

    device (which is stronger) and then switch in

    values of attenuation until the receiver sees

    the same level of noise. The value of attenuation

    tells me how GOOD the filter is. I.E. the noise

    a some frequency of interest is reduced by XX

    dB.  30 dB is a factor of 1000 reduction.



    Now, putting real numbers on those signal strengths

    is a separate experiment. The experiment cited

    only speaks to filter effectiveness and says nothing

    about gross numbers for the radiated noise.



    Hand held, un-calibrated detectors are very handy

    for detecting the presence of noise and to a 

    limited degree, measuring the efficacy of a noise

    reduction technique. The REAL test is to fly it

    and see how the antagonist system affects the

    victim in a weak signal situation. A noise you

    can detect with a hand-held transceiver may not 

    be significant in the real world.



    Bob . . .



 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

wynaire(at)citlink.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:20 pm Post subject: LED landing light filter experiment

Thanks Bob.

  I'm with you for about 75% of the electro-magic  here.

 My real world [table top] on the test bench: My  design rated 12 vdc 6000k LED [with heat sink attached] is working very well  "pulling 10 vdc and 500 ma."  Power supply is a Micronta Dual Tracking  Adjustable DC Power Supply. If I understand you correctly, the main (only?)  reason that I should add another component [the LED driver] is to insure a  steady-state current supply to my LED?  PS: My final lighting goal is   to use these (mounted under FAA-PMA red, green & clear glass lens) for  wing-tip and tail nav lights, and to strobe them (white) at the same  positions.

  

 Your thoughts are sincerely appreciated. There is only so  much that  one can gain from studying texts... 

  

 Mike

 ********

 [quote]   ---

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:36 pm Post subject: LED landing light filter experiment

At 04:13 PM 1/25/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks Bob. Â Appreciate the explanation. Â 



 On the subject of Eric, I seem to recall that it was he who recommended flexible LED strips instead of my noisy EL wire for cockpit lighting. Â 



 These run on 12V... are they likely to produce noise in the same way then?Â 	


   No . . . those are the same kind of strips I was

   talking about some months back. I've got about

   8 feet of that strip material in two rows on the

 ' under side of a kitchen cabinet to replace a 40-year

   old, 18W fluorescent fixture. These strips

   are an array of 3 lamps and a resistor in

   series parallel with each trio spread out over

   about 2" of strip. Are these red lights? Usable

   light at 7.5 volts suggests that the threshold

   of 2v x 3 lamps (6v) gives you about 1.5 volts

   of drop across the installed resistor to set

   the operating current. 

   



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  I'm guessing not, because in testing them the other day, they produced the right level of light at about 7.5V and drew hardly any current at all -- less then 0.01A, according to my bench PSU. 	


   Yep. These lamps are biased up using the 'simple' but

   inefficient configuration where the losses are

   acceptably insignificant. No noisy switch

   mode power supply necessary.



   The lamps we're wrestling with are arrays in the

   25 to 35 watt class used for position lights,

   landing/taxi lights and perhaps strobes.



   They DO have power supplies that WILL be noisy

   if not properly filtered.



   Bob . . .



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  James



 

 On 23 January 2013 23:06, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

   At 01:54 PM 1/23/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Nice work Bob. Ã‚ Do you mind me asking... what is about these LED lights that makes them so noisy? Ã‚ In my head, LEDs are completely inert and therefore wouldn't create any interference. 	


  Â  You are, of course, correct. The LEDs are very quiet.

  Â  Not zero noise . . . the electrical activity in the

  Â  light emitting junction is pretty frenetic. But

  Â  the aperture (antenna area) is very tiny so it's

  Â  hard to detect . . . much less a risk for a noise

  Â  source.



  Â  The problem is that LEDs are CURRENT operated

  Â  devices. You're probably familiar with the ubiquitous

  Â  resistor wired in series with an LED to SET the

  Â  current flowing through the device. To light an

  Â  red LED (typical voltage drop on the order of

  Â  2 volts) from a 14v bus, you have to pick a resistor

  Â  that causes the desired LED current to flow (30 mA) 

  Â  with a DROP of 12 volts. This means that the series

  Â  resistor dissipates 6 TIMES as much energy as the

  Â  LED . . . but it's so small as to be insignificant.



  Â  POWER LEDs will demand much larger current values.

  Â  Consider this device



  http://tinyurl.com/a2sggv4 



  Â  which is rated at 10 watts. Note that it's rated

  Â  to operate at 3 amps so one would guess that

  Â  the operating voltage is about 3.3 volts (typical

  Â  for white). So, using a simple series resistor

  Â  for 14 volt systems would dissipate 30 watts . . .

  Â  NOT insignificant.



  Â  The elegant solution demands a special kind of

  Â  DC to DC converter. VARIABLE voltage input

  Â  (say 10 to 16 volts) and CONSTANT current

  Â  output (3 A). Now, we can hook perhaps 3 to

  Â  6 lamps in series (10 to 20 volt operation)

  Â  but at a constant current.



  Â  This bit of electronic magic is ALWAYS 

  Â  noisy. Your computer, tv, and countless

  Â  other appliances have similar power supplies

  Â  but they're generally qualified to FCC part

  Â  15 rules for expected but limited emissions.

  Â  No so with LED lamp fixtures from Fuzzy Joe's

  Â  Motorcycle shop . . . orÂ  24xydiy.com either.



  Â  We had some discussions here on the list about

  Â  LED position lights wherein a number of

  Â  builders using a particular DIY kit were

  Â  experiencing radio noise from the LuxDrive

  Â  power supplies recommended for the installation.



  Â  This prompted development of the filtered version

  Â  of the LuxDrive part which I've offered now

  Â  for several years



     Â 



  Â  This board is the foundation for the experimental filter

  Â  I crafted for the aforementioned experiment. This jeeped

  Â  experiment may not be the ideal way to go for an on-purpose

  Â  filter but then, the then, the boards are already fabricated

  Â  and in stock.



  Â  Our very own Eric Jones offers an LED based tail light



  http://tinyurl.com/b377jtv

 

  Â  Which has enjoyed the benefits of creative tailoring to

  Â  the task and generates no objectionable noises.



 



  Â  Bob . . . 



  	  Quote: 	
		  

ist"

target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



tp://forums.matronics.com



_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[/b] 	
 



  	  Quote: 	
		  



AeroElectric-List Email Forum -



http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

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[/b] 	


 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

 01/25/13 	
 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:48 pm Post subject: LED landing light filter experiment

At 04:19 PM 1/25/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks Bob.

  I'm with you for about 75% of the electro-magic here.

 My real world [table top] on the test bench: My design rated 12 vdc 6000k LED [with heat sink attached] is working very well "pulling 10 vdc and 500 ma."  Power supply is a Micronta Dual Tracking Adjustable DC Power Supply. If I understand you correctly, the main (only?) reason that I should add another component [the LED driver] is to insure a steady-state current supply to my LED?  PS: My final lighting goal is  to use these (mounted under FAA-PMA red, green & clear glass lens) for wing-tip and tail nav lights, and to strobe them (white) at the same positions.

  

 Your thoughts are sincerely appreciated. There is only so much that  one can gain from studying texts... 	


   Are you using any series resistance in your installtion?

   How do you intend to establish and maintain the desired

   500 mA operating point?  What the rated operating current

   for the device.  Are these white lights that you're going

   to filter into red and green? Keep in mind that filters

   of white light are VERY inefficient. They block a majority

   of the lamp's total output allowing only the desired color

   to pass. If you use leds designed to produce red and green

   light, then no filtering (with attendant losses) are

   necessary.



   But assuming that you DO use three such arrays at 500

   ma each. Then you need to drop about 5 volts in a resistor

   in series with each array for 2.5 watts each. That's

   7.5 watts tossed off in heat for each fixture with 15 watts

   being used by the lamps. Should the alternator quit,

   your bus drops to 12v and you now bias each array at

   only 200 mA for a 60% drop in light output.



   Now, if you hook all the lamps in series and power them

   with a 500 mA constant current switchmode supply, the

   light output can remain constant throughout an operating

   range of 10 to 15 volts for the bus with only a couple of

   watts tossed off by the supply. That's what these guys

   do for the OBAM aircraft position lights that were being

   discussed here on the list a few years back. This particular

   supply will put out any practical excitation value between

   100 and 1000 mA . . . and is filtered.



    



 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

wynaire(at)citlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:45 am Post subject: LED landing light filter experiment

Thanks for the replies.

 I cannot answer your first questions  until  further education on my part. However, by re-reading your para 2 & 3,  the fog is thinning! Thanks. 

  

 Currently there are no resisters in series with the  LED. The "operating point" will be the aircraft battery / alternator system  buss. Apparently your "switch mode supply" handles well any voltage  fluctuation event, as referenced in para 3. Point well made. We  will go with that item.

  

  Since posting my last question,  I've located for sale a  multi-vdc 30 watt RGB LED, with a  separate contact tab for each color, as opposed to a ganged contact used  with remote LED controls for color choice. (My terminology may not be perfect  here...) This LED-heat sink package should (as you stated) fit my needs much  better than "filtering white light thru red and green glass wingtip filter  lens."   I'll plan on  using the white LED's only as  strobes.  

  

 As always, the education one receives from the  build-it-yourself effort is well worth the initial confusion. 

 Best regards,

 Mike W.

 ****************

  

  

 ---

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:52 pm Post subject: LED landing light filter experiment

 	  Quote: 	
		    Since posting my last question, I've located for sale a  multi-vdc 30 watt RGB LED, with a separate contact tab for each color, as opposed to a ganged contact used with remote LED controls for color choice. (My terminology may not be perfect here...) This LED-heat sink package should (as you stated) fit my needs much better than "filtering white light thru red and green glass wingtip filter lens."   I'll plan on  using the white LED's only as strobes.  	


   Hmmmm . . . multi-colored devices also suggest

   less than the best efficiency compared to a single

   color device. I'm pretty sure that the most successful

   LED replacements for incandescent lamps will be

   single color-specific devices.



 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

edpav8r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:51 pm Post subject: LED landing light filter experiment

Mike,

RGB devices like the one you found are intended to be driven by a controller that can vary the intensity of each color as required to achieve "full color" output.  The eye mixes the colors so you "see" the intended color -- think of each device as akin to a single pixel in a color "jumbotron" stadium screen and you'll have the basic idea.

For aircraft position lights, you'd probably be better off from an output intensity, size and cost perspective to find suitable single-color LEDs.

Pay close attention to color wavelength with LEDs.  Their output is very narrow and specific.  Red doesn't necessarily mean red and green doesn't necessarily mean green.  Both colors have specifically defined wavelengths as far as the FAA is concerned.

Also pay close attention to beam angles.  LEDs come with all kinds of optics molded into them.  Wide angles obviously cover more area, but throw less light in any given direction.  Narrow beam devices throw more light, but you'll need more of them, carefully aimed, to cover the desired viewing area.

I believe it was the other Eric who posted something a few months back about LED use for aircraft position lighting.  I recall something about aviation green being very hard to duplicate with LEDs.  Perhaps you can find it in the archives, or the OP will see this and kindly repost.

Eric

On Jan 26, 2013, at 11:43 AM, "SWAN MGT LLC/M  WYNN" <wynaire(at)citlink.net (wynaire(at)citlink.net)> wrote:

[quote]Thanks for the replies.

I cannot answer your first questions  until further education on my part. However, by re-reading your para 2 & 3, the fog is thinning! Thanks.

 

Currently there are no resisters in series with the LED. The "operating point" will be the aircraft battery / alternator system buss. Apparently your "switch mode supply" handles well any voltage fluctuation event, as referenced in para 3. Point well made. We will go with that item.

 

 Since posting my last question, I've located for sale a  multi-vdc 30 watt RGB LED, with a separate contact tab for each color, as opposed to a ganged contact used with remote LED controls for color choice. (My terminology may not be perfect here...) This LED-heat sink package should (as you stated) fit my needs much better than "filtering white light thru red and green glass wingtip filter lens."   I'll plan on  using the white LED's only as strobes. 

 

As always, the education one receives from the build-it-yourself effort is well worth the initial confusion.

Best regards,

Mike W.

****************

[b]

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