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rmhou(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:57 pm Post subject: Valve Guide Reaming |
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I am wondering if the "rope trick" to ream valve guides on Lycoming and TCM engines would work on Huosai or M14? http://www.theleftseat.net/stickyvalvereaming.html
If so, is there anything special one should look out for? For example, on number 5 & 6 cylinders, wouldn't their push rods fall out once rock arms were removed?
Thanks in advance,
Robin
[quote][b]
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:08 pm Post subject: Valve Guide Reaming |
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Yes the push rods will fall out on the bottom cylinders. Try to find away to hold them in place (maybe stuffing a clean rag around them. The "rope trick" should work.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 2/11/2013 8:58:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rmhou(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | I am wondering if the "rope trick" to ream valve guides on Lycoming and TCM engines would work on Huosai or M14? http://www.theleftseat.net/stickyvalvereaming.html
If so, is there anything special one should look out for? For example, on number 5 & 6 cylinders, wouldn't their push rods fall out once rock arms were removed?
Thanks in advance,
Robin
|
[quote][b]
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:37 pm Post subject: Valve Guide Reaming |
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Simple answer, yes. When the push rod is pulled from the tube watch out for the tappet ( push rod cup) and spring that it sits on top of. They can fall out. There are two of the little cup like creatures. One rides the lobe on the cam plate. The spring fits in the center of both. The half most likely to fall out sits at the tip of the push rod. Incidentally, these can come off from any of the push rods. More likely on the gravity prone cylinders though.
Now do you really mean grind the valve seats? This is usually because the exhaust valve is leaking on the compression test.
I hope you are not going to ream your valve guides. To replace valve guides you will need to pull the cylinders. The rope trick will not work for that.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 11, 2013, at 7:54 PM, Robin Hou <rmhou(at)yahoo.com (rmhou(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]I am wondering if the "rope trick" to ream valve guides on Lycoming and TCM engines would work on Huosai or M14? http://www.theleftseat.net/stickyvalvereaming.html
If so, is there anything special one should look out for? For example, on number 5 & 6 cylinders, wouldn't their push rods fall out once rock arms were removed?
Thanks in advance,
Robin
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Vic
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 115
Location: Southern Bavaria
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Valve Guide Reaming |
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Hi Robin,
basically the rope trick itself should work. I used this for replacing valve guide seals in car engines a few times. But in case of the M 14 these have 14mm spark plug threads, 1.25mm pitch, not 3/4 " or 18mm, so with a 14mm exhaust valve stem you won´t be able to pull the valve stem through the spark hole to polish the seized stem.
But after feeling the rather sloppy fit of an M14 ex valve I would not believe that this Lycontisaurus problem is common to M 14 radials as well. Anyone knows more about this topic ??
Sure I had stuck ex valves in earlier times on vintage motor bikes when I put bronce guides in cast iron heads. But soon I found out that the bronce definitely reduced its inner diameter with time - no carbon build up in the bore. The reamer had to take quite a bit of bronce to restore the initial fit. So I learned to bake the bronce before finish turning the guide, apply only minimal press fit and provide extra clearance for the stem. And I lived happily ever after ........
Cheers
Vic
P.S. : When pulling the rockers : there are lots of loose needle rollers in them ! Keep a plastic bag ready !
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:04 am Post subject: Valve Guide Reaming |
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Pappy,
Can you explain how the "rope trick" will work when trying to ream a
valve guide with the cylinder in place on the engine?
In order to ream a valve guide, the valve must be completely removed
from the guide. The "rope trick" is used to keep a valve from dropping
out of the valve guide by stuffing the rope between the top of the
piston and the base of the valve.
FYI - On the M14 and Housai engines, if one brings the piston to TDC,
then release the valve keepers and springs, the valve can be moved all
the way down until it touches the top of the piston and there will still
be about 1/8"- 3/16" of the valve stem still protruding out the top of
the valve guide. This will allow you to grab the top of the valve stem
and pull the valve back into position. If you move the piston off of
TDC, the end of the valve stem will move down into the valve guide. So
be careful if you ever do this.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 2/11/2013 9:06 PM, cjpilot710(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | Yes the push rods will fall out on the bottom cylinders. Try to find
away to hold them in place (maybe stuffing a clean rag around them.
The "rope trick" should work.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 2/11/2013 8:58:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
rmhou(at)yahoo.com writes:
I am wondering if the "rope trick" to ream valve guides on
Lycoming and TCM engines would work on Huosai or M14?
http://www.theleftseat.net/stickyvalvereaming.html
If so, is there anything special one should look out for? For
example, on number 5 & 6 cylinders, wouldn't their push rods fall
out once rock arms were removed?
Thanks in advance,
Robin
*
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
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p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:08 am Post subject: Valve Guide Reaming |
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The "rope trick" is used to keep the valve from sliding down through the
guide and into the cylinder. By stuffing the rope into the combustion
chamber through the spark plug hole, the rope is between the piston and
the valve. This assumes the piston is already fairly close to TDC. So
when the valve spring and keepers are removed the valve slips down on to
the rope. Thus preventing the valve from dropping completely out of the
guide.
The "rope trick" is sometimes used when using a borescope look at the
valve and seat. It can also be used if you are planning on lapping a
valve without removing the cylinder.
I have never heard of using the rope trick to ream a valve guide because
the only way to ream a valve guide would be to drop the valve stem
completely out of the guide. Not a good idea with the cylinder
remaining in place on the engine.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 2/11/2013 9:53 PM, Vic wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Robin,
basically the rope trick itself should work. I used this for replacing valve guide seals in car engines a few times. But in case of the M 14 these have 14mm spark plug threads, 1.25mm pitch, not 3/4 " or 18mm, so with a 14mm exhaust valve stem you won´t be able to pull the valve stem through the spark hole to polish the seized stem.
But after feeling the rather sloppy fit of an M14 ex valve I would not believe that this Lycontisaurus problem is common to M 14 radials as well. Anyone knows more about this topic ??
Sure I had stuck ex valves in earlier times on vintage motor bikes when I put bronce guides in cast iron heads. But soon I found out that the bronce definitely reduced its inner diameter with time - no carbon build up in the bore. The reamer had to take quite a bit of bronce to restore the initial fit. So I learned to bake the bronce before finish turning the guide, apply only minimal press fit and provide extra clearance for the stem. And I lived happily ever after ........
Cheers
Vic
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394119#394119
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cjpilot710(at)AOL.COM
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:49 am Post subject: Valve Guide Reaming |
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Dennis,
You are correct. I didn't read the question and that the sticky valve was the problem.
Pappy
Sent from my iPad from some where on The 3rd rock from the Sun.
On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:01 AM, "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Pappy,
Can you explain how the "rope trick" will work when trying to ream a valve guide with the cylinder in place on the engine?
In order to ream a valve guide, the valve must be completely removed from the guide. The "rope trick" is used to keep a valve from dropping out of the valve guide by stuffing the rope between the top of the piston and the base of the valve.
FYI - On the M14 and Housai engines, if one brings the piston to TDC, then release the valve keepers and springs, the valve can be moved all the way down until it touches the top of the piston and there will still be about 1/8"- 3/16" of the valve stem still protruding out the top of the valve guide. This will allow you to grab the top of the valve stem and pull the valve back into position. If you move the piston off of TDC, the end of the valve stem will move down into the valve guide. So be careful if you ever do this.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 2/11/2013 9:06 PM, cjpilot710(at)aol.com wrote:
> Yes the push rods will fall out on the bottom cylinders. Try to find away to hold them in place (maybe stuffing a clean rag around them. The "rope trick" should work.
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
> In a message dated 2/11/2013 8:58:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rmhou(at)yahoo.com writes:
>
> I am wondering if the "rope trick" to ream valve guides on
> Lycoming and TCM engines would work on Huosai or M14?
> http://www.theleftseat.net/stickyvalvereaming.html
>
> If so, is there anything special one should look out for? For
> example, on number 5 & 6 cylinders, wouldn't their push rods fall
> out once rock arms were removed?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Robin
>
> *
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> ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
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> *
>
>
> *
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Vic
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 115
Location: Southern Bavaria
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Valve Guide Reaming |
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Hi all,
I think Robin has specifically asked about a way to ream the guide in a case of seizure and a stuck ex valve as often happens with Lycontisaurus flat engines. So of course you need the rope trick to dismount all components of each valve and drop it in the cylinder completely. After performing the reaming and polishing the valve stem you need the rope trick once more to assemble the springs and keys. This may be a successful procedure for flat engines but as I said not possible on M 14s . The ex valve stem is too big to pass the spark plug thread for polishing.
But what I would like to hear : Has anybody ever experienced a stuck ex valve on an M 14 ?
Vic
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GeorgeCoy
Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:11 am Post subject: Valve Guide Reaming |
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YES
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:27 am Post subject: Valve Guide Reaming |
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If one adds 1 quart of MMO to the oil and runs the engine normally for a
few hours, the MMO typically seems to eliminate a sticking valve.
Why would anyone want to ream a valve guide with the cylinder in place
on the case? The fine metal particles from the reaming would end up
inside the cylinder. And are you saying you pull the valve stem out of
the spark plug hole to polish the valve stem? Then the valve stem has to
be reinstalled in the guide with the cylinder in place? You have got to
be kidding, right? I'm not trying to sound sarcastic here, but before I
would ever attempt to do that, I'd remove the cylinder to do the job.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 2/12/2013 9:01 AM, Vic wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi all,
I think Robin has specifically asked about a way to ream the guide in a case of seizure and a stuck ex valve as often happens with Lycontisaurus flat engines. So of course you need the rope trick to dismount all components of each valve and drop it in the cylinder completely. After performing the reaming and polishing the valve stem you need the rope trick once more to assemble the springs and keys. This may be a successful procedure for flat engines but as I said not possible on M 14s . The ex valve stem is too big to pass the spark plug thread for polishing.
But what I would like to hear : Has anybody ever experienced a stuck ex valve on an M 14 ?
Vic
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394133#394133
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:29 am Post subject: Valve Guide Reaming |
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Sticking, but not stuck! MMO in the oil cured the problem.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 2/12/2013 9:09 AM, George Coy wrote:
[quote]
YES
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Vic
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 115
Location: Southern Bavaria
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Valve Guide Reaming |
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Hi Dennis,
not sure I would do this myself but the bloke in Robin´s link suggested this method for flat engines. Just care to read the link on top of the thread.
Anyway it seems that stuck ex valves are not unknown in M 14s.
Vic
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:02 am Post subject: Valve Guide Reaming |
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You are correct. They are not uncommon in M14's. I would qualify
"stuck" though as a sticking exhaust valve, which I have personally
experienced and as I said, adding a quart of MMO to the oil tank and
running the engine normally seems to clear up this problem.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 2/12/2013 9:53 AM, Vic wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Dennis,
not sure I would do this myself but the bloke in Robin´s link suggested this method for flat engines. Just care to read the link on top of the thread.
Anyway it seems that stuck ex valves are not unknown in M 14s.
Vic
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394141#394141
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rmhou(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:46 am Post subject: Valve Guide Reaming |
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Thanks for all your replies.By the way, reaming valve guides using "rope trick" without removing cylinders is in Lycoming Service Instruction 1425C: http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1425a.pdfI have no desire (read, no knowledge) to try it on my Huosai, but was wondering if this procedure would work for our round engines.
From: Vic <vicmolnar(at)aol.com>;
To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>;
Subject: Re: Valve Guide Reaming
Sent: Tue, Feb 12, 2013 3:53:00 PM
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Vic" <[url=javascript:return]vicmolnar(at)aol.com[/url]>
Hi Dennis,
not sure I would do this myself but the bloke in Robin´s link suggested this method for flat engines. Just care to read the link on top of the thread.
Anyway it seems that stuck ex valves are not unknown in M 14s.
Vic
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.w.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List" target=_blank >http://www.matronics.c========================http://www=======================
[quote][b]
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:10 am Post subject: Valve Guide Reaming |
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Yes
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:11 am Post subject: Valve Guide Reaming |
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Just FYI:
The "Rope Trick" was tried on my engine on cylinder number 2. It worked perfectly. At least ... initially. Then compression went to really bad numbers, the cylinder was pulled and three rings were found to be cracked. The conjecture is that some material dropped down into the engine and caused the rings to crack.
The cylinder was removed and honed, new rings installed, etc.
My personal opinion is that I will never allow this method to be used again on my engine. Since then I have run MMO in the fuel religiously, and in the oil right before each oil change and have never had a problem since (about 600 hours). In my view, sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and do things the right way. Time consuming and painful as it might be, cleaning out a valve guide, or re-surfacing a valve seat, simply should be done off aircraft and on the bench.
Doing it with the "rope trick" does indeed make this task much easier to accomplish, but it comes with some risks.
Mark Bitterlich
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gill.g(at)gpimail.com
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:53 am Post subject: Valve Guide Reaming |
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If you do this on either the Huosai or M14, two things to watch for catching and collecting all the rocker arm needle bearing and the lifter piston and spring on any of the lower cylinders. I have used the rope trick to replace valve seals and/or valve springs.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Hou
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 6:54 PM
To: Yak List
Subject: Valve Guide Reaming
I am wondering if the "rope trick" to ream valve guides on Lycoming and TCM engines would work on Huosai or M14? http://www.theleftseat.net/stickyvalvereaming.html
If so, is there anything special one should look out for? For example, on number 5 & 6 cylinders, wouldn't their push rods fall out once rock arms were removed?
Thanks in advance,
Robin
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
01234567
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Yakman
Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 10
Location: Auckland New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:25 am Post subject: Valve Guide Reaming |
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Hate to sound inexperienced but what is MMO, what does it do, where can I get it and what are the symptoms of a sticking Ex valve?
Andrew Park
New Zealand
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:52 am Post subject: Valve Guide Reaming |
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Good advice Gill. As you said, the 'rope trick' will work when
replacing valve seals or valve springs. An alternative to the rope
trick is to pressurize the cylinder with standard shop pressure. That
usually will keep the valve in place while releasing the valve stem keepers.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 2/12/2013 11:51 AM, Gill Gutierrez wrote:
| Quote: |
If you do this on either the Huosai or M14, two things to watch for
catching and collecting all the rocker arm needle bearing and the
lifter piston and spring on any of the lower cylinders. I have used
the rope trick to replace valve seals and/or valve springs.
Gill
*From:*owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Robin Hou
*Sent:* Monday, February 11, 2013 6:54 PM
*To:* Yak List
*Subject:* Valve Guide Reaming
I am wondering if the "rope trick" to ream valve guides on Lycoming
and TCM engines would work on Huosai or M14?
http://www.theleftseat.net/stickyvalvereaming.html
If so, is there anything special one should look out for? For
example, on number 5 & 6 cylinders, wouldn't their push rods fall out
once rock arms were removed?
Thanks in advance,
Robin
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:01 am Post subject: Valve Guide Reaming |
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Good question. Marvel Mystery Oil.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 2/12/2013 12:23 PM, Andrew Park wrote:
| Quote: |
Hate to sound inexperienced but what is MMO, what does it do, where can I get it and what are the symptoms of a sticking Ex valve?
Andrew Park
New Zealand
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