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Northolt connections

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graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:08 am Post subject: Northolt connections

I work near Northolt London and wondered about flying in, does anyone have any connections there. It would be prohibitively expensive through normal biz jet channels I think.

_________________
Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
Kit 1 G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS 912S, Woodcomp G(@)gdbmk.co.uk

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:56 am Post subject: Northolt connections

Graeme



It's inside the Heathrow CTR which is Cat A airspace.



Pete



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graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Northolt connections

and ?, Valance Byways strip  is 200 yds north of Gatwick runway and class A and I have landed there many times, Denham and Fairoaks is in class A.

houlihan(at)blueyonder.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:08 pm Post subject: Northolt connections

Just for info Gatwick is class D not A



Tim



On 18 February 2013 21:42, graeme bird <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>

  

 and ?, Valance Byways strip  is 200 yds north of Gatwick runway and class A and I have landed there many times, Denham and Fairoaks is in class A.

 

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Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: Northolt connections

Yes, Class A infringement would bring big big trouble.

So please don,t do it, the CAA are just waiting, like those sodding radar traps just round the corner miles from anywhere.

Alan

JonSmith

Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 110

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:39 am Post subject: Re: Northolt connections

Hi!  I know nothing about Northolt, but it does indeed say in Pooleys that it's not available to civilian single engine aircraft so I guess that (unless you know someone to slip a few quid to!) then sadly that's a show stopper in this case.



But as a principle, being in the Heathrow class A CTR would not be a problem itself.  VFR flight is not permitted in any class A airspace but SPECIAL VFR clearance can be requested for entry into any CTR irrespective of the class of the CTR.  This special VFR procedure is an "authorisation by ATC for a pilot to fly within a CTR even though he is unable to comply with IFR requirements" and can be used to fly to an airfield within, or transit a CTR.  Note this applies specifically to CTR's (Control ZONES) and NOT CTA's (anything else such as TMA's, CTA's, airways etc).  



I have several times when flying N or S past London obtained a SVFR clearance to route through the Heathrow CTR; Burnham - Ascot seems to work well.  Clearance is often not above 1000'.  You don't need to file a flight plan but you MUST obtain clearance from Heathrow radar.  It's usually empty and seems much safer than the corridor of hell around the outside of the CTR at 2400'!



Nb. Some small airfields within the London class A CTR (eg. Fairoaks, White Waltham etc) have specific special agreements for "Local Flying Areas" within the CTR.  Flight within these areas are still technically considered SVFR flights but clearance from Heathrow is not required (and indeed is not obtainable).



In the case of, for example, flying to Vallance near Gatwick, SVFR is not needed because Gatwick CTR is class D airspace so we can obtain a VFR clearance to enter there.  It's only to enter class A CTR's that SVFR clearance is relevant and required - another example being to enter the channel islands class A CTR.

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Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:07 am Post subject: Re: Northolt connections

Hi  Jon.

Nice concise article, That,s how the CAA books on Aviation Law should be written, so its easily understandable and giving an example.

Well done.

I have flown into them all many years ago, as far as i can remember White Waltham was like Headcorn Bumpy.

Alan

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:23 am Post subject: Northolt connections

Thanks for a sensible explanation.  



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Paul M 383

Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 97
Location: United Kingdom

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Northolt connections

If you want to know if you can fly to anywhere, the AD2 from the AIP is the only definitive source for what you can and cannot do. Pooley's & AFE etc are very useful guides, and good for info such as hotels & taxis, but the AIP (as amended by NOTAMs, also on the AIS website, btw) describe the legal conditions.



In the UK, go to www.ais.org.uk > IAIP > Aerodrome Index - Specific.



Other countries have their own - search France AIP, for example.



If the info you want is not in the AIP give 'em a call - the contact number will be in there.



For Northolt:



EGWU AD 2.20 LOCAL TRAFFIC REGULATIONS



1 Airport Regulations

(a) Northolt is a Government Aerodrome regulated by the Ministry of Defence. No guarantee can be given that this airfield meets the requirements of ICAO Annex 14...

...

(f) Civil single-engined fixed-wing aircraft are not permitted. Military single- engine aircraft are permitted by prior arrangement.



HTH



Paul M

graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Northolt connections

exactly, its connections/ RAF contacts that I was fishing for. Not people to tell me I cant fly in airspace that I and others frequently get permission to fly in.



I am sure if it were MOD business, I could get permission.



Thanks for all the replies though.



Incidentally the route across London City is also interesting - haven't done that for three years or so though so it may have changed.



And shame on Northolt if they don't allow single engine aircraft in - there is a spitfire on a podium just inside the perimeter.

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Northolt connections

Hello.

No one has told you, you can,t fly or where to fly, its up to you where you fly but it would be unwise to infringe controlled airspace because you get fined.

Its a Forum to help pilots, and i for one appreciate the time put in by others  to look up the rules and regulations and post them on the forum, and thanks to Jon, who has done a good job in refreshed my memory, i will request a VFR clearance next time i approach Gatwick.

Alan

Paul M 383

Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 97
Location: United Kingdom

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:43 am Post subject: Re: Northolt connections

Can I ask where the idea that the CAA will fine you as soon as look at you (or your radar trace!) comes from? Has anybody here been fined, or know anybody who has? Or any sort of enforcement action?



I work for a private jet operator as my day job, and a flying school at weekends; and I have been involved in 3 airspace infringement investigations (not me!) In all of them the CAA simply asked for an explanation of events and advised more care in the future. I have heard of additional training being advised for other cases I was not involved in.



They have a clear Enforcement Policy which is available for all to see on their website - http://www.caa.co.uk/enforcement . 



In it they talk about "just culture" and "proportionate and risk-based approach" ... I have found this to be true in any dealings I have had with them.



The CAA will not punish a genuine lapse of concentration of lack of expertise - but they will look unfavourably on wilful stupidity or blatant flouting of the law.



I have found them to be slow, inflexible and frustratingly uncompromising, but not vindictive or petty - anybody have any other experiences?



Paul M

383

XS Mono 912S

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Northolt connections

Hello Paul.

I am not going into great detail, More important to me is to defend the time and effort of others who have contributed to this topic and made good sense.

Not in detail,but i went up to the LAA rally, my first visit, some CAA representatives where talking to the public,

I asked two question, one on infringing controlled airspace,and the other

on locator beacons,

I said if i clip the corner of controlled airspace inadvertently, ie just by a mile or two, would i be in trouble,

Answer briefly and i can,t remember the numbers given. 

He said all my track would have been recorded on radar, and airlines on approach have a separation distance  from invading traffic, and if a plane is seen entering (infringing the airspace)while an airline is on approach he would have to instruct a go around.

I said even if i was only just inside, He said we have no way of telling what you are going to do. That,s it right or wrong that,s what the man told me,

not many prosecuted but they intend to prosecute more in the future.

I very much appreciate those who have posted in on VFR,SVFR ete , i read the forum, and that was all good useful stuff. 



My Other Question to the CAA.

I want to carry a locator  beacon, and switch it on if i have engine failure,

or EFATO, no radio at the time,  and then make a successfully landing, With i be in trouble from the CAA. as the rescue services may be on there way.

NO  



Alan

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