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24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)

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holger-d(at)shadowbrush.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:39 pm Post subject: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)

Hi Bob, all,



Do you have an update on this project? I tried to follow the thread back to the start, but couldn't quite. Are you testing with these lights: 

http://24x7diy.com/product_info.php/products_id/94

Are they emitting RF noise? A friend of mine installed lights similar to these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170941144735?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

He reports no discernible RF noise. 

I was considering a pair of these for installation into the cowling:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-40W-Work-Light-Flood-Spot-Lamp-Offroad-Truck-Mining-Boat-4WD-UTE-SUV-12V-24V-/150974253408?clk_rvr_id=458017945559&mfe=sidebar

One flood (60˚), another spot (30˚). The flood light could stay turned on at all times as collision protection.

Thank you,

Holger (the removable antenna guy)



On Feb 25, 2013, at 1:07 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>



The first-pass filter I crafted last week

only offers about 12 dB of attenuation of

noises in the VHF Comm spectrum. I've got

some tubing ordered that will let me

'box up' the filter components and bring

power connection out to a connector.



Working on plan-b.



========= PLAN B ===========



Wasn't able to put my hands on the tubing

I wanted but I ordered an alternative today

which is coming out of Oklahoma. Hope

to get a more effective filter crafted

shortly.

  Bob . . .  

[b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:46 am Post subject: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)

At 10:38 PM 3/11/2013, you wrote:

Hi Bob, all,



Do you have an update on this project? I tried to follow the thread 

back to the start, but couldn't quite. Are you testing with these lights:



http://24x7diy.com/product_info.php/products_id/94



Are they emitting RF noise? A friend of mine installed lights similar to these:



http://www.ebay.com/itm/170941144735?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649



He reports no discernible RF noise.



I was considering a pair of these for installation into the cowling:



      Adapting commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS)

      products into alternative environments comes

      with some risks. Fortunately risks are very

      low for the LED lighting experiments. One

      first looks for a source of adequate light

      output. After finding a suitable candidate,

      is it easily mounted to the aircraft? Finally,

      does it produce noise that exceeds limits for

      your design goals?



      For some builders, no amount of noise is a

      big deal, no so for others.



      The 23x7diy products are nicely packaged,

      they DO produce a non-quantified level of

      noise that the builder believed was problematic

      and there's a nice recess at the rear of the

      housing conducive to a well considered

      installation of a filter. The last of the

      materials I need came in the mail yesterday

      so I'll proceed with the filter project for

      these lamps.



      The fixture you cited will have to go through

      the same processes. First see if the light

      output is adequate to your needs. I used to

      shine a 6v fisherman's lantern around the

      attendees of my seminars while asking them

      to consider if the light output was sufficient

      for night landings. I suggested that I'd

      be willing to duct-tape it to my J-3's

      struts and demonstrate adequacy to the task.

      That was a 3-watt landing light!!! Bottom

      line is that it takes very little total

      light to assist you in conducting greasers on

      the otherwise dark terra firma.



      Then see if the noise (there is ALWAYS

      emitted noise) is too much for your

      situation, If too much, then you go after

      it as a separate but final issue.



      Bob . . .

   Bob . . .

holger-d(at)shadowbrush.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:41 am Post subject: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)

On Mar 12, 2013, at 7:44 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		       The last of the

     materials I need came in the mail yesterday

     so I'll proceed with the filter project for

     these lamps.


	


Thank you for your response, and update on your noise filter project. I'll wait to hear from your further findings. No noise would allow leaving the lights on for collision protection.



Also, I'm interested in as much light as I can get for an emergency off-field landing and when taxiing around in the dark. 



Thanks!



Holger

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:27 am Post subject: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)

At 11:40 AM 3/12/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Holger Selover-Stephan <holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com>



 On Mar 12, 2013, at 7:44 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 >     The last of the

 >     materials I need came in the mail yesterday

 >     so I'll proceed with the filter project for

 >     these lamps.



 Thank you for your response, and update on your noise filter project. I'll wait to hear from your further findings. No noise would allow leaving the lights on for collision protection. 	


    Keep in mind that my work here is on one product

    based on non-quantified perceptions of noise.

    The owner of these lights complained about it,

    I could detect it here and have a plan for

    attenuating it . . . but just how much noise

    is created compared to contemporary limits for

    qualification onto a type certificated aircraft

    cannot be known without going to the lab.



    The fact that this particular product produced

    detectable noise is not a guarantee that (1)

    contemporary qualification limits will be achieve

    with my experiments nor (2) does it guarantee

    that user perceptions of noise will be driven 

    below acceptable limits.



    Filters are  NEVER 100.000% effective.

    They are attenuators tailored to reduce noise

    to acceptable levels which is never zero. For

    example, here's a plot of the noise from a blower

    motor that was tearing up the ADF on a King Air

    after I crafted a filter for it.



    All I had to do was get the noise below the limit line

     . . . in this case the filter was exceedingly effective.

    But had my efforts produced a plot that was still

    trashy out to 30MHz, all I have to do is get

    below the limit line.



 [img]cid:.0[/img] 



 

     Until we do similar investigations for our experiments,

     the best we can expect is: "This experiment reduced noise

     to the point where the customer doesn't care about what's

     left over." It may still fail miserably in the DO-160

     lab. Just because the original observer is satisfied with

     the outcome does not mean all future observers will share

     the perception.



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  Also, I'm interested in as much light as I can get for an emergency off-field landing and when taxiing around in the dark. 

 	


    Okay, your design goals call for LOTS of light

    but in situations that may amount to 0.0001%

    and 1.0% of total operations respectively.

    These may be situations wherein noise is the

    last of your worries.



 

   Bob . . .

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holger-d(at)shadowbrush.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:26 pm Post subject: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)

On Mar 12, 2013, at 10:26 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		      Keep in mind that my work here is on one product

    based on non-quantified perceptions of noise.

    The owner of these lights complained about it,

    I could detect it here and have a plan for

    attenuating it . . . but just how much noise

    is created compared to contemporary limits for

    qualification onto a type certificated aircraft

    cannot be known without going to the lab.

I think my expectations, or I should rather say: hopes, are in line with this. My aircraft is not type certified, and if there's a little noise during short-timed operation, I'll take that over paying several hundred dollars for one of the aviation lights, which might not fare all that much better even.

 	  Quote: 	
		      The fact that this particular product produced

    detectable noise is not a guarantee that (1)

    contemporary qualification limits will be achieve

    with my experiments nor (2) does it guarantee

    that user perceptions of noise will be driven 

    below acceptable limits.

    Filters are  NEVER 100.000% effective.

    They are attenuators tailored to reduce noise

    to acceptable levels which is never zero.

Interesting what you say. And I think I follow, aided by a background in science in my gray past, alas in a different field.

 	  Quote: 	
		       Until we do similar investigations for our experiments,

     the best we can expect is: "This experiment reduced noise

     to the point where the customer doesn't care about what's

     left over." It may still fail miserably in the DO-160

     lab. Just because the original observer is satisfied with

     the outcome does not mean all future observers will share

     the perception.

OK, fair enough. My investment is time while waiting for another report from you, and some $150 for the lights. Should I, and maybe others, contribute to expenses of this experiment? Having an off-the-shelf, sub $200 landing light pair should be of interest to a few others as well. And yes, no guarantee for noise levels.

 	  Quote: 	
		  > 

> Also, I'm interested in as much light as I can get for an emergency off-field landing and when taxiing around in the dark. 

    Okay, your design goals call for LOTS of light

    but in situations that may amount to 0.0001%

    and 1.0% of total operations respectively.

    These may be situations wherein noise is the

    last of your worries.

Agreed, in the case of an off-field landing and taxiing, noise isn't a great concern. But not so for the always-on flood light, and admittedly, that's a nice-to-have.

Thanks,

Holger

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:07 am Post subject: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)

At 11:24 PM 3/12/2013, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com>



OK, fair enough. My investment is time while waiting for another 

report from you, and some $150 for the lights. Should I, and maybe 

others, contribute to expenses of this experiment? Having an 

off-the-shelf, sub $200 landing light pair should be of interest to 

a few others as well. And yes, no guarantee for noise levels.


	


    I don't think there's much value in waiting

    for me or anyone else to put a band-aid on

    any particular COTS offering for lights.

    That market is evolving very rapidly and as

    OBAM aviation participants, limiting our

    selection of products to those which have

    be successfully 'bandaged' is counter-productive.



    I think I've written on these pages numerous

    times that I've never encountered a noise

    problem that couldn't be whipped. With that

    assertion in mind, I would encourage folks

    to try anything that floats their boat. If

    it produces light sufficient to your needs

    then let's tackle noise problems as a separate

    issue.



    Dollars is not the limiting factor for my

    efforts, it's time. Further, the time thing

    is more involved than having a clear bench

    or wrestling with procurement delays. The

    elegant solution has to be tempered against

    the tools I have to produce it along with

    trading out assembly methods and techniques.

    I can tell you that what I'm carving on now

    for the 24x7diy assemblies is in its third

    generation.



    The risk is that once the elegant solution

    for 24x7diy is achieved, they might go out

    of business or something better might come

    along. That's the down-side of OBAM aviation.



    Things done on the TC side of the house tend

    to become carved in stone. Some of my designs

    at Electro-Mech are still in production after 30

    years. Many of those out of production were

    canned because critical components are not made

    any more!



    Things we do in OBAM aviation are more likely

    to be pushed overboard because something better

    came along, not because critical parts have

    reached end of market life. It's a different

    ball game entirely.



    So I would advise you to search out and

    try lighting products that meet your design

    goals . . . let's whip what ever noise issues

    arise later.

   Bob . . .

Tundra10

Joined: 14 Jun 2010
Posts: 102
Location: Scarborough, Ontario

Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:12 am Post subject: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)

 	  Quote: 	
		   It occurs to me that we could do a HID version

 of this flasher that automatically forces a

 one-minute warm up period before allowing wig-wag

 operations to commence.


	


XeVision has a patent on the "technique" of delaying flashing until  

the lamps have warmed up.



http://xevision.com/hid_pulsing.html



Many of their ballasts have a control input that allows flashing  

without switching the power to the ballast.



Jeff Page

Dream Aircraft Tundra #10

holger-d(at)shadowbrush.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:36 pm Post subject: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)

On Mar 13, 2013, at 8:06 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     I don't think there's much value in waiting

   for me or anyone else to put a band-aid on

   any particular COTS offering for lights.

   That market is evolving very rapidly and as

   OBAM aviation participants, limiting our

   selection of products to those which have

   be successfully 'bandaged' is counter-productive.


	


OK, understood, Bob. If it's that much of a moving target. I'll pipe up again when I have the lights and checked for noise. 



Very much appreciate the time you took to explain the situation. 



Thanks,



Holger

holger-d(at)shadowbrush.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:31 pm Post subject: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 13, 2013, at 8:06 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

>  I don't think there's much value in waiting

>  for me or anyone else to put a band-aid on

>  any particular COTS offering for lights.

>  That market is evolving very rapidly and as

>  OBAM aviation participants, limiting our

>  selection of products to those which have

>  be successfully 'bandaged' is counter-productive.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   


	


Bob, I ordered this light now: 



http://www.ebay.com/itm/221136934512?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649



..and will report my findings after returning from a trip abroad in a few weeks. This one had the most light output for the size I can fit into the cowling. 



Thanks



Holger

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:03 pm Post subject: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)

On 03/22/2013 05:30 PM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> On Mar 13, 2013, at 8:06 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

>>   I don't think there's much value in waiting

>>   for me or anyone else to put a band-aid on

>>   any particular COTS offering for lights.

>>   That market is evolving very rapidly and as

>>   OBAM aviation participants, limiting our

>>   selection of products to those which have

>>   be successfully 'bandaged' is counter-productive.

 Bob, I ordered this light now:

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/221136934512?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

 ...and will report my findings after returning from a trip abroad in a few weeks. This one had the most light output for the size I can fit into the cowling.

 Thanks

 Holger

Hi Holger,

I hope it works; that isn't a bad price for that power. However, it does 

claim to be a 'flood' light. Got to wonder if it will have too wide a 

spread to get enough throw to use as a landing light.

Charlie

holger-d(at)shadowbrush.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:00 pm Post subject: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)

On Mar 22, 2013, at 5:03 PM, Charlie England wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hi Holger,



I hope it works; that isn't a bad price for that power. However, it does claim to be a 'flood' light. Got to wonder if it will have too wide a spread to get enough throw to use as a landing light.



Charlie

	




Hi Charlie,



Good to hear from you! I wanted flood lights after seeing LED light "shoot outs" posted somewhere. Tail dragger driver here, I need some light on the runway edges. And at 40W LED, I hope the throw will be adequate. I'll let you know how they work out. 



Holger

 [quote][b]

holger-d(at)shadowbrush.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:23 pm Post subject: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)

The light arrived today. I'm very pleased with the output and the distance. It does emit RF noise, drowning out an Icom A6 with the squelch turned down to level 8 and held closer than 5 ft. WX transmissions are still clear even with the radio right next to the light. No idea that means trouble later in flight. I may just take it up and turn it on to try it out. 



The other thing is, it's fairly heavy: 1lb 12oz. I'll open it up to see if a lighter heatsink can be made for it. I'll report again in a few weeks.



Holger

holger-d(at)shadowbrush.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:27 am Post subject: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)

A couple more information about this light: it's sealed and I don't see a way of opening it up and closing it without damage to the case. I may do it anyway to do something about the weight. Also, the packaging reveals they come with these beam angle: 20˚, 30˚, 40˚, 60˚ and 120˚. I have the 40˚, and that may actually be the best option for a landing light.  The manufacturer appears to be "Advanced German Technology - AGT", and the model number "SZW-SM12317: http://i.imgur.com/AEIcNNe.jpg 



Holger



On Mar 23, 2013, at 11:21 PM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The light arrived today. I'm very pleased with the output and the distance. It does emit RF noise, drowning out an Icom A6 with the squelch turned down to level 8 and held closer than 5 ft. WX transmissions are still clear even with the radio right next to the light. No idea that means trouble later in flight. I may just take it up and turn it on to try it out. 

 

 The other thing is, it's fairly heavy: 1lb 12oz. I'll open it up to see if a lighter heatsink can be made for it. I'll report again in a few weeks.

 

 Holger

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:32 pm Post subject: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)

Hi Holger,

Thanks for the update; that's useful info. I'd love to hear about a 

side-by-side comparison with one of the common homebuilt lights, and 

with the 'stock' aviation landing light. If you have one of the older 

systems to do the comparison, please post the results.

Charlie

On 03/24/2013 11:03 AM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 A couple more information about this light: it's sealed and I don't see a way of opening it up and closing it without damage to the case. I may do it anyway to do something about the weight. Also, the packaging reveals they come with these beam angle: 20˚, 30˚, 40˚, 60˚ and 120˚. I have the 40˚, and that may actually be the best option for a landing light.  The manufacturer appears to be "Advanced German Technology - AGT", and the model number "SZW-SM12317: http://i.imgur.com/AEIcNNe.jpg

 Holger

 On Mar 23, 2013, at 11:21 PM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote:

> The light arrived today. I'm very pleased with the output and the distance. It does emit RF noise, drowning out an Icom A6 with the squelch turned down to level 8 and held closer than 5 ft. WX transmissions are still clear even with the radio right next to the light. No idea that means trouble later in flight. I may just take it up and turn it on to try it out.

>

> The other thing is, it's fairly heavy: 1lb 12oz. I'll open it up to see if a lighter heatsink can be made for it. I'll report again in a few weeks.

>

> Holger

>

holger-d(at)shadowbrush.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:58 pm Post subject: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)

On Mar 24, 2013, at 1:25 PM, Charlie England wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi Holger,

 

 Thanks for the update; that's useful info. I'd love to hear about a side-by-side comparison with one of the common homebuilt lights, and with the 'stock' aviation landing light. If you have one of the older systems to do the comparison, please post the results.

 

 Charlie


	




Hi Charlie,



Yes, I have a PAR-36 light here, and will point both lights down the runway when I'm back in town in 2-3 weeks. 



Holger

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