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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:19 pm Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some suggestions about what to do.

  I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case. Â Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists and added what I thought was appropriate.

  



So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience, please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious errors. Â I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with a happy ending. Â Still, ya gotta try.

  



For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea. Â I don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Â Just seemed prudent.

  



For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. Â My only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. Â I have aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.

  





Dave Saylor

831-750-0284 CL

N921AC_EFIS_FAILURE_Checklist_3-30-13.pdf

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Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: EFIS failure checklist

Dave,



I'd suggest: "Airspeed: maintain". In the heat of the moment there's no need to be messing around with airspeed, especially if pitot data is in question. You might add: "cross check with gps ground speed".



If, like many, you can drive your autopilot off your EFIS or directly off a gps source, make sure you add:"Autopilot: EFIS source off" or however your EFIS/independent op switch is labeled. And of course, if your autopilot is only driven off the EFIS it should be "autopilot - off".



Finally, all is definitely not lost. My last IPC the cfii shut down all my GRT screens (put them all on an engine page, actually), turned off all NAV's in the panel. Using the internal battery powered D-6, and a battery powered, hand held VOR (could have been a gps, too) I was able to make a passable VOR approach to non precision minimums. But if the visibility were less than a mile, it would definitely be best to go somewhere else!

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:36 pm Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

That is when you call the nearest radar facility, say "I have lost my 

gyros, need no-gyro surveillance approach to nearest airport.

Anything that limits your need to do more than stay straight and level. 

If you haven't done one, or not in many moons, good to go to less busy 

approach control that has radar approach listed in approach plates book, 

and ask for one. It is definitely different than doing your own nav 

approaches.



On 3/30/2013 5:35 PM, Bob Turner wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   -

 Finally, all is definitely not lost. My last IPC the cfii shut down all my GRT screens (put them all on an engine page, actually), turned off all NAV's in the panel. Using the internal battery powered D-6, and a battery powered, hand held VOR (could have been a gps, too) I was able to make a passable VOR approach to non precision minimums. But if the visibility were less than a mile, it would definitely be best to go somewhere else!



 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397366#397366






	


-----

No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:48 pm Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

Thanks Bob. Â "Airspeed: maintain" is better. Â I changed the autopilot item reply from "ON" to "PUSH AP". Â That way the EFIS is out of the system and the AP holds current heading and vertical speed by its own gyros. Â Hopefully I can stabilize things from there. Â Maybe it's best to avoid following a GPS flight plan altogether, and just fly an assigned heading.

   

When I said there wouldn't be much hope, I meant in a total and complete failure...even then I'm still gonna try! Â IÂ thoroughlyÂ expect to land if a single item or two should fail.

   



Edits to checklist attached.

 Dave Saylor

[url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url] CL

 



On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		      --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>

 

 Dave,

 

 I'd suggest: "Airspeed: maintain". In the heat of the moment there's no need to be messing around with airspeed, especially if pitot data is in question. You might add: "cross check with gps ground speed".

     

 If, like many, you can drive your autopilot off your EFIS or directly off a gps source, make sure you add:"Autopilot: EFIS source off" or however your EFIS/independent op switch is labeled. And of course, if your autopilot is only driven off the EFIS it should be "autopilot - off".

     

 Finally, all is definitely not lost. My last IPC the cfii shut down all my GRT screens (put them all on an engine page, actually), turned off all NAV's in the panel. Using the internal battery powered D-6, and a battery powered, hand held VOR (could have been a gps, too) I was able to make a passable VOR approach to non precision minimums. But if the visibility were less than a mile, it would definitely be best to go somewhere else!

     

 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397366#397366

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ===========

 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 e -

  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

N921AC_EFIS_FAILURE_Checklist_3-30-13.pdf

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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:52 pm Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

Kelly, isn't that the ol' "turn left--stop turn, turn right--stop turn" thing? Â Yes, it's been a while. Â And never frequent.



  Dave Saylor

831-750-0284 CL

 



On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 7:35 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

[quote]  --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

 

 That is when you call the nearest radar facility, say "I have lost my gyros, need no-gyro surveillance approach to nearest airport.

 Anything that limits your need to do more than stay straight and level. If you haven't done one, or not in many moons, good to go to less busy approach control that has radar approach listed in approach plates book, and ask for one. It is definitely different than doing your own nav approaches.  

 

 On 3/30/2013 5:35 PM, Bob Turner wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   -

 Finally, all is definitely not lost. My last IPC the cfii shut down all my GRT screens (put them all on an engine page, actually), turned off all NAV's in the panel. Using the internal battery powered D-6, and a battery powered, hand held VOR (could have been a gps, too) I was able to make a passable VOR approach to non precision minimums. But if the visibility were less than a mile, it would definitely be best to go somewhere else!

   

 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397366#397366

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 	
 

 

 



 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

 

 

 ====================================

 " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ====================================

 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 e -

  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

 



[b]

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:00 pm Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

Yes, with 1/2 standard rate turns.



On 3/30/2013 8:52 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Kelly, isn't that the ol' "turn left--stop turn, turn right--stop 

 turn" thing?  Yes, it's been a while.  And never frequent.



 Dave Saylor

 831-750-0284 CL

 On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 7:35 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com 

 <mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com>> wrote:



     

     <kellym(at)aviating.com <mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com>>



     That is when you call the nearest radar facility, say "I have lost

     my gyros, need no-gyro surveillance approach to nearest airport.

     Anything that limits your need to do more than stay straight and

     level. If you haven't done one, or not in many moons, good to go

     to less busy approach control that has radar approach listed in

     approach plates book, and ask for one. It is definitely different

     than doing your own nav approaches.

     On 3/30/2013 5:35 PM, Bob Turner wrote:



         -

         Finally, all is definitely not lost. My last IPC the cfii shut

         down all my GRT screens (put them all on an engine page,

         actually), turned off all NAV's in the panel. Using the

         internal battery powered D-6, and a battery powered, hand held

         VOR (could have been a gps, too) I was able to make a passable

         VOR approach to non precision minimums. But if the visibility

         were less than a mile, it would definitely be best to go

         somewhere else!



         --------

         Bob Turner

         RV-10 QB





         Read this topic online here:



         http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397366#397366







     -----

     No virus found in this message.

     Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>



     ====================================

     " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

     ====================================

     MS -

     k">http://forums.matronics.com

     ====================================

     e -

              -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

     t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

     ====================================





 *

 *


	


-----

No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

ScooterF15

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 136

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:38 am Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

Dave,



I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for my POH.

 From an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea to lay out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other problems). However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a failure in IMC I doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm not to saying this is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't put these checklists in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might be the kind of checklists that you know by heart.

 



Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version shows that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a reference for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation. In my -10 I had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI, and a turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one. If I lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel' gauges (3 of which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on my emergency electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a lot of things would have to fail to lose all of those.

 



-Jim

N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold 



On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some suggestions about what to do.

 



  I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.  Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists and added what I thought was appropriate.

   



So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience, please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious errors.  I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with a happy ending.  Still, ya gotta try.

   



For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea.  I don't know if there's an accepted practice here.  Just seemed prudent.

   



For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2.  My only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass.  I have aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.

   





Dave Saylor

[url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url] CL

  

 [b]

amekler

Joined: 07 Oct 2010
Posts: 164

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:53 am Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

Dave,

On Mar 31, 2013, at 8:37 AM, James McGrew <jsmcgrew(at)alum.mit.edu (jsmcgrew(at)alum.mit.edu)> wrote:

[quote]Dave,



I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for my POH.

 From an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea to lay out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other problems). However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a failure in IMC I doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm not to saying this is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't put these checklists in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might be the kind of checklists that you know by heart.

 



Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version shows that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a reference for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation. In my -10 I had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI, and a turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one. If I lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel' gauges (3 of which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on my emergency electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a lot of things would have to fail to lose all of those.

 



-Jim

N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold 



On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some suggestions about what to do.

 



  I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.  Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists and added what I thought was appropriate.

   



So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience, please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious errors.  I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with a happy ending.  Still, ya gotta try.

   



For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea.  I don't know if there's an accepted practice here.  Just seemed prudent.

   



For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2.  My only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass.  I have aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.

   





Dave Saylor

[url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url] CL

  

 

	
[b]

amekler

Joined: 07 Oct 2010
Posts: 164

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:57 am Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

Dave,If you have the D10A with the backup lithium

 battery you should be all set if the AFS quits.

Alan

On Mar 31, 2013, at 8:37 AM, James McGrew <jsmcgrew(at)alum.mit.edu (jsmcgrew(at)alum.mit.edu)> wrote:

[quote]Dave,



I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for my POH.

 From an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea to lay out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other problems). However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a failure in IMC I doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm not to saying this is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't put these checklists in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might be the kind of checklists that you know by heart.

 



Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version shows that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a reference for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation. In my -10 I had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI, and a turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one. If I lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel' gauges (3 of which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on my emergency electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a lot of things would have to fail to lose all of those.

 



-Jim

N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold 



On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some suggestions about what to do.

 



  I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.  Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists and added what I thought was appropriate.

   



So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience, please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious errors.  I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with a happy ending.  Still, ya gotta try.

   



For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea.  I don't know if there's an accepted practice here.  Just seemed prudent.

   



For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2.  My only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass.  I have aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.

   





Dave Saylor

[url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url] CL

  

 

	
[b]

Jim Combs

Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:23 am Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

Worse case you have altitude information displayed on the transponder (327) in the right hand side of the display. (You can set it up to show altitude).  I also have a free app on my cell phone (GPS STATUS) that shows altitude heading and speed as a fully isolated powered backup.  

 



Jim C  



On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Alan Mekler MD <amekler(at)metrocast.net (amekler(at)metrocast.net)> wrote:

 [quote]Dave,

On Mar 31, 2013, at 8:37 AM, James McGrew <jsmcgrew(at)alum.mit.edu (jsmcgrew(at)alum.mit.edu)> wrote:

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  Dave,



I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for my POH.

 



 From an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea to lay out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other problems). However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a failure in IMC I doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm not to saying this is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't put these checklists in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might be the kind of checklists that you know by heart.

  



Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version shows that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a reference for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation. In my -10 I had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI, and a turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one. If I lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel' gauges (3 of which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on my emergency electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a lot of things would have to fail to lose all of those.

  



-Jim

N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold 



On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some suggestions about what to do.

  



  I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.  Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists and added what I thought was appropriate.

    



So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience, please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious errors.  I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with a happy ending.  Still, ya gotta try.

    



For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea.  I don't know if there's an accepted practice here.  Just seemed prudent.

    



For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2.  My only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass.  I have aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.

    





Dave Saylor

[url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url] CL

   

 

	




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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

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[b]

_________________
RV-10 -> N312F - Flying as of 12/2008

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:33 am Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

Some comments (IMHO).

       I don't fly IMC but do use checklists ...... and have suffered my       own inflight emergencies.Â  I think a few of us will handle       emergencies correctly, but until you really have one (hope you       don't) you really don't know how you'll react ..... will you be       cool or hit the panic button.Â  In my emergencies I didn't even       think of looking up a checklist ..... too busy.Â  Remember the       three basic items:Â  Aviate, Communicate, Navigate.

       

       You should have everything in your checklist 'automatic' when       something fails but separated into categories:

       

       The first item is 'FLY THE AIRPLANE'.

       

       If the engine fails your 'engine checklist' covers those items       pertinent to a smooth running engine.

       If something electrical fails your checklist covers things you can       change .... circuit breakers/fuses etc. although I don't recommend       changing fuses in flight, and only one attempt at resetting a       circuit breaker.

       Â 

       With essential buss and/or individual EFIS backup batteries you       should never have a total EFIS failure that you have any control       over.

       

       I'm also reminded of the suggestion:Â  'Fly the airplane as deep       into the crash as you can.'

       

       And I have one other suggestion .... practice those emergencies       every so often, and involve your front seat passenger, if you have       one, in handling your 'emergency'.Â  It's a safe bet that you'll       forget items unless you practice.Â  Checklists are great when you       have the time to use them, but under pressure ...... I really       don't think we will take the time.Â  

       Maybe it's just me and y'all are far more cool under pressure than       I am.

       Linn

       PSÂ  My off-field emergencies did no further damage to the airplane       nor property on the ground.Â  I was terribly lucky and had a whole       lot of Angels (they sit on my shoulders) to help me out.

       

       

       On 3/30/2013 11:47 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:

     

     [quote]                Thanks Bob.           Â "Airspeed: maintain" is better. Â I changed the autopilot item           reply from "ON" to "PUSH AP". Â That way the EFIS is out of the           system and the AP holds current heading and vertical speed by           its own gyros. Â Hopefully I can stabilize things from there.           Â Maybe it's best to avoid following a GPS flight plan           altogether, and just fly an assigned heading.

         

         

         

         When I said there wouldn't be much           hope, I meant in a total and complete failure...even then I'm           still gonna try! Â IÂ thoroughlyÂ expect to land if a single item           or two should fail.

         

         

         Edits to           checklist attached.

                    Dave Saylor

             [url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url] CL

           

           

           On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Bob             Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>             wrote:

              	  Quote: 	
		                 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>

               

               Dave,

               

               I'd suggest: "Airspeed: maintain". In the heat of the               moment there's no need to be messing around with airspeed,               especially if pitot data is in question. You might add:               "cross check with gps ground speed".

               

               If, like many, you can drive your autopilot off your EFIS               or directly off a gps source, make sure you               add:"Autopilot: EFIS source off" or however your               EFIS/independent op switch is labeled. And of course, if               your autopilot is only driven off the EFIS it should be               "autopilot - off".

               

               Finally, all is definitely not lost. My last IPC the cfii               shut down all my GRT screens (put them all on an engine               page, actually), turned off all NAV's in the panel. Using               the internal battery powered D-6, and a battery powered,               hand held VOR (could have been a gps, too) I was able to               make a passable VOR approach to non precision minimums.               But if the visibility were less than a mile, it would               definitely be best to go somewhere else!

               

               --------

               Bob Turner

               RV-10 QB

               

               

               

               

               Read this topic online here:

               

               http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397366#397366

               

               

               

               

               

               

               

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rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:03 am Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

Flying into Seattle about a decade ago, lost vacuum pump on an old 182 (I know, what is a vacuum pump), I had just entered the clouds....Forget the checklist, it was hard enough just to go through the memory items and keep the airplane going in the right direction....declared an emergency, and the controller immediately offered an no gyro approach and tuned me to an area with higher bases.  Once I felt I was back in control, the only indication I had of the vacuum failure was the disconnect between the attitude indicator and turn/slip, I had my father in law pull the instrument covers out of my flight bag and I covered the affected instruments and it was just like I was flying with my instructor.



In my current airplane, RV-10, I have two levels of backup, with the autopilot being the primary safety instrument......



BTW, I saw a comment about the altitude being on the transponder, that would not work for me if I lose my EFIS, the grey code for the transponder comes from EFIS.



Above everything else I have in the airplane panel....I will NOT fly IFR without my Ipad (Wingx Pro is my choice).  That will give me everything I need to navigate including GPS altitude.....



Reneâ€™

N423CF

801-721-6080



--

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:36 am Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

Takes you back to basic failure analysis and goals. What are potential single points of failure, besides CFI covering display or turning it off.

One example...two full size EFIS/MFD for flight instrumentation with dual adahars. Yes, software bug is prime suspect, although if they aren't set to display the same items, unlikely to glitch at same place. Alternator is backed by ships battery. Ship's power backed by independent backup battery for each screen. GNS-430W/GTN650 or better, independent of EFIS giving ground track and ground speed.

 Compared to original turn and bank, inclinometer, airspeed, altimeter and low freq range receiver. We have come a long ways in 75 years.

The one thing I learned from a lot of partial panel time was that keeping the dirty side down with a basic six pack keeps your brain so busy scanning and processing your basic attitude while giving you severe case of the "leans" that you have less than 1% left for figuring navigation and pushing buttons, so the simpler system you have, that takes minimal brain power to interpret/extract info, the better. That is why I suggest that if you are in radar coverage you off load all navigation responsibility to a controller. I seriously question the ability to be messing with a cell phone while trying to maintain straight and level in clouds at night with no gyros.

 

On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com (jiminlexky(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Worse case you have altitude information displayed on the transponder (327) in the right hand side of the display. (You can set it up to show altitude).  I also have a free app on my cell phone (GPS STATUS) that shows altitude heading and speed as a fully isolated powered backup.  

  



Jim C  



-------------------- 	
 

[quote] sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm

   [b]

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

jkreidler

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:35 am Post subject: Re: EFIS failure checklist

Dave, this is a good topic - I like the idea.  For those of us who have been through the entire build process we are usually aware of how the systems interact (where the encoded altitude is coming from, where the autopilot gets its data, etc.).  If this was a factory airplane it would have an extensive POH / data section written to explain all of this.  At least I assume a Cessna 172 with all glass has an extended POH.  If nothing else it is useful to document how all of these things are interacting to help trouble shoot when something starts not working.  Sometimes, not always, a failure can occur when you are in clear blue on top looking at an ocean of clouds below wondering just how you are going to get back down.  In these cases you do have some time to do some basic trouble shooting.  Many will never consider selling or letting others fly our airplanes, but documentation is key to helping new users understand how the systems work - although I would argue no amount of documentation can replace actually building and the decision making that went into the build.  After building an airplane I now realize just how ignorant I was back in the days I first started to rent, even after I had purchased a factory airplane I was still in the dark as to how these thing are really put together.  A great side benefit to this portion of our hobby is the depth of knowledge we gain about our airplanes.  It is truly ashamed that this is not reflected in our accident rates.



Sorry - now onto my question...  Back when I was writing our POH I looked at an example that had IFR procedures included, like what the basics setup of the GPS, EFIS, and Autopilot should be for various approaches.  Does anyone know where I can find an example (I looked at the examples on Tim's site and VAF)?

_________________
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617

robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:48 am Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

This discussion has been beneficial and reconfirms my feeling that in an emergency when everything appears as if you are looking through a straw and your head fills with conflicting decision paths that the safest bet is on a 100% independent back up system on its own battery (if needed). 

I was thrilled to see a new back up EFIS advertised in one of the aviation magazines I receive. Its a sweet little unit that appears to be well designed. After reading of its capabilities and watching the company video I was impressed with the SAM back up EFIS. I had to dig a little deeper to find the unit pricing. $10,800.00. Bahhhahahha 

Those poor bastards in the certified world will probably have $15K once installed by a certified mechanic. The SAM is a unit that is comparable to the TT Gemini EFIS I have in my 8A for $1,300.

I have been very pleased and impressed with my TT Gemini EFIS and I feel comfortable using that as my sole navigation device in an emergency. For $15K I can install 3 TT Gemini back up units each with its own back up battery, buy two Dynon D1 pocket EFIS, buy 3 iPads and an iPad mini plus a years worth of AV gas. 

My point is there are some quality backup devices that will provide full 6 pack info in a small footprint that are eminently affordable. Retrofitting for a TT Gemini or the like is a pretty simple task and gives great peace of mind should primary instruments start going dark on you.



Robin

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:54 am Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

Somebody said it's not the stuff you know about that gets you, it's the stuff you don't know about...I do expect to rely on the D10A if the AFS fails. Â I just want to be able to get from one to the other without going too far into the weeds.

  

Dave Saylor

831-750-0284 CL

 



On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 5:56 AM, Alan Mekler MD <amekler(at)metrocast.net (amekler(at)metrocast.net)> wrote:

[quote]  Dave,If you have the D10A with the backup lithium

Â battery you should be all set if the AFS quits.

Alan  

On Mar 31, 2013, at 8:37 AM, James McGrew <jsmcgrew(at)alum.mit.edu (jsmcgrew(at)alum.mit.edu)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Dave,  



I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for my POH.

 From an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea to lay out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other problems). However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a failure in IMC I doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm not to saying this is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't put these checklists in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might be the kind of checklists that you know by heart.

   



Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version shows that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a reference for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation. In my -10 I had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI, and a turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one. If I lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel' gauges (3 of which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on my emergency electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a lot of things would have to fail to lose all of those.

   



-Jim

N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold 



On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some suggestions about what to do.

   



  I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case. Â Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists and added what I thought was appropriate.

     



So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience, please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious errors. Â I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with a happy ending. Â Still, ya gotta try.

     



For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea. Â I don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Â Just seemed prudent.

     



For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. Â My only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. Â I have aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.

     





Dave Saylor

[url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url] CL

    

 

	
	






  	  Quote: 	
		  



3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	


[b]

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:54 am Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

Jim, as Linn touched on as well, the checklist is to verify that I'm on the right track. Â I don't expect to be calm enough to know I'm out of control and also cooly reach for the checklist. Â As you've said, memorize the first items (Autopilot:AP, Refer to backups) and then use the checklist to refocus and do things in the right order.

  



I thinkÂ referringÂ to the checklist at some point is very important. Â A few things have to be automatic though.

  



As far as how to set up equipment, the AFS manual is pretty good to get you in the ballpark for normal operations. Â Everyone has preferences and training that makes each setup unique. Â It's good to write it down, though, to force yourself to think about it. Â I've modified my checklist a bunch of times to fine tune it and to account for changing equipment.

  



I don't have a spinning mass gyro. Â If I loose all attitudeÂ referenceÂ  it's up to the autopilot'sÂ separateÂ gyros and whatever info I can cobble together. Â If I built it again, or if I do a remodel, I'd add one. Â My thinking has changed over the years to want to now include at least a TC. Â But a decent electric attitudeÂ indicatorÂ is pretty dang expensive. Â A TC is a lot less and probably more reliable for a given dollar amount.

  



That's a whole different thread though, I was hoping for (and getting) some feedback on the structure of the checklist.

  



Thanks!



Dave Saylor

831-750-0284 CL

 



On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 5:37 AM, James McGrew <jsmcgrew(at)alum.mit.edu (jsmcgrew(at)alum.mit.edu)> wrote:

[quote]  Dave,



I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for my POH.

 From an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea to lay out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other problems). However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a failure in IMC I doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm not to saying this is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't put these checklists in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might be the kind of checklists that you know by heart.

   



Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version shows that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a reference for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation. In my -10 I had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI, and a turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one. If I lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel' gauges (3 of which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on my emergency electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a lot of things would have to fail to lose all of those.

   



-Jim

N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold 



On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some suggestions about what to do.

   



  I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case. Â Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists and added what I thought was appropriate.

     



So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience, please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious errors. Â I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with a happy ending. Â Still, ya gotta try.

     



For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea. Â I don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Â Just seemed prudent.

     



For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. Â My only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. Â I have aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.

     





Dave Saylor

[url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url] CL

    

 



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:59 am Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

Good point to cover the inopÂ instruments. Â I don't know if the big red X on the AFS or grey screen on the D10A will suffice to make me not want to look at them. Â Hopefully I could ignore them but I've heard at least one study that says they'reÂ irresistibleÂ to our eyeballs, even knowing they're inop.

  

Dave Saylor

831-750-0284 CL

 



On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 7:03 AM, Rene <rene(at)felker.com (rene(at)felker.com)> wrote:

[quote]  --> RV10-List message posted by: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com (rene(at)felker.com)>

 

 Flying into Seattle about a decade ago, lost vacuum pump on an old 182 (I know, what is a vacuum pump), I had just entered the clouds....Forget the checklist, it was hard enough just to go through the memory items and keep the airplane going in the right direction....declared an emergency, and the controller immediately offered an no gyro approach and tuned me to an area with higher bases. Â Once I felt I was back in control, the only indication I had of the vacuum failure was the disconnect between the attitude indicator and turn/slip, I had my father in law pull the instrument covers out of my flight bag and I covered the affected instruments and it was just like I was flying with my instructor.

   

 In my current airplane, RV-10, I have two levels of backup, with the autopilot being the primary safety instrument......

 

 BTW, I saw a comment about the altitude being on the transponder, that would not work for me if I lose my EFIS, the grey code for the transponder comes from EFIS.

 

 Above everything else I have in the airplane panel....I will NOT fly IFR without my Ipad (Wingx Pro is my choice). Â That will give me everything I need to navigate including GPS altitude.....

 

 Reneâ€™

 N423CF

 [url=tel:801-721-6080]801-721-6080[/url]

 

 --

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:07 am Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

Jâ€‹ason, I think I put a reply to you in another post...anyway, the AFS manual is pretty good at getting you set up for different scenarios. Â They don't use a checklist format, more of a paragraph description, but you can glean the information from that. Â Of course you have to using similar equipment--digiflght or AFS autopilot and G430/530. Â They might have procedures for the GTNs by now.â€‹

  

Dave Saylor

831-750-0284 CL

 



On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:35 AM, jkreidler <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com (jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com)> wrote:

[quote]  --> RV10-List message posted by: "jkreidler" <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com (jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com)>

 

 Dave, this is a good topic - I like the idea. Â For those of us who have been through the entire build process we are usually aware of how the systems interact (where the encoded altitude is coming from, where the autopilot gets its data, etc.). Â If this was a factory airplane it would have an extensive POH / data section written to explain all of this. Â At least I assume a Cessna 172 with all glass has an extended POH. Â If nothing else it is useful to document how all of these things are interacting to help trouble shoot when something starts not working. Â Sometimes, not always, a failure can occur when you are in clear blue on top looking at an ocean of clouds below wondering just how you are going to get back down. Â In these cases you do have some time to do some basic trouble shooting. Â Many will never consider selling or letting others fly our airplanes, but documentation is key to helping new users understand how the systems work - although I would argue no amount of do!

   Â cumentation can replace actually building and the decision making that went into the build. Â After building an airplane I now realize just how ignorant I was back in the days I first started to rent, even after I had purchased a factory airplane I was still in the dark as to how these thing are really put together. Â A great side benefit to this portion of our hobby is the depth of knowledge we gain about our airplanes. Â It is truly ashamed that this is not reflected in our accident rates.

   

 Sorry - now onto my question... Â Back when I was writing our POH I looked at an example that had IFR procedures included, like what the basics setup of the GPS, EFIS, and Autopilot should be for various approaches. Â Does anyone know where I can find an example (I looked at the examples on Tim's site and VAF)?

   

 --------

 Jason Kreidler

 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI

 Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler

 N44YH - Flying - #40617

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397418#397418

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ===========

 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 e -

  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:19 am Post subject: EFIS failure checklist

Is that the L3 unit? Â I remember seeing the price and thinking oh brother. Â I'd rather install a vacuum system, and buy the 3 indicators that are gonna to fail over a couple thousand hours.

  

Dave Saylor

831-750-0284 CL

 



On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Robin Marks <robin(at)painttheweb.com (robin(at)painttheweb.com)> wrote:

[quote]  --> RV10-List message posted by: Robin Marks <robin(at)painttheweb.com (robin(at)painttheweb.com)>

 

 This discussion has been beneficial and reconfirms my feeling that in an emergency when everything appears as if you are looking through a straw and your head fills with conflicting decision paths that the safest bet is on a 100% independent back up system on its own battery (if needed).

   I was thrilled to see a new back up EFIS advertised in one of the aviation magazines I receive. Its a sweet little unit that appears to be well designed. After reading of its capabilities and watching the company video I was impressed with the SAM back up EFIS. I had to dig a little deeper to find the unit pricing. $10,800.00. Bahhhahahha

   Those poor bastards in the certified world will probably have $15K once installed by a certified mechanic. The SAM is a unit that is comparable to the TT Gemini EFIS I have in my 8A for $1,300.

 I have been very pleased and impressed with my TT Gemini EFIS and I feel comfortable using that as my sole navigation device in an emergency. For $15K I can install 3 TT Gemini back up units each with its own back up battery, buy two Dynon D1 pocket EFIS, buy 3 iPads and an iPad mini plus a years worth of AV gas.

   My point is there are some quality backup devices that will provide full 6 pack info in a small footprint that are eminently affordable. Retrofitting for a TT Gemini or the like is a pretty simple task and gives great peace of mind should primary instruments start going dark on you.

   

 Robin

 

 

 ===========

 " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ===========

 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 e -

  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 



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