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heat treat problem

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:34 am Post subject: heat treat problem

I've got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm

 building a recovery parachute control system that

 uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found

 a really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr

 and proceed with my endeavors.



 One of the last operations during assembly called for

 cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then

 drilling a 3/16" hole in the last 1/2".  The hole

 accepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on a guide

 collar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain

 rotation.



 [img]cid:.0[/img]

 

 When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the

 it turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what.

 It's the right length but now I need to drill the hole. No

 chance with any tools I have.



 I think I recall that steel can be heated to some pretty

 ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and cooled

 slowly to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is

 very un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and heat

 with a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents

 but the without some time consuming study, no immediate

 notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this part

 so that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills.



 Are there any folks on the list with some practical experience

 in this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but

 it ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any

 suggestions from the List?



   Bob . . .

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racerjerry

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:43 am Post subject: Re: heat treat problem

EDM  aka Electrical Discharge Machining.  Google it for a machine shop that has that capability in your area.  EDM easily penetrates any conductive material.



Good luck, Bob



P.S.  You would need to locate a RAM type (plunge) EDM setup as opposed to a wire type EDM machine if you intend to go this route.

_________________
Jerry King

Last edited by racerjerry on Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:57 am; edited 1 time in total

klehman(at)albedo.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:43 am Post subject: heat treat problem

I don't do a lot of this but if it is carbon steel just heat it up to a

nice red color and air cool it. The hardening only occurs if it is shock

cooled in oil or water or the attached heat sink is relatively massive.

A room temperature slow cool should take out the hardness.



A good carbide masonry bit running slow will sometimes go through pretty

hard steel. A hardware store cobalt bit is dramatically better than an

High Speed Steel bit.



Ken



 	  Quote: 	
		   

<nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I've got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm

 building a recovery parachute control system that

 uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found

 a really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr

 and proceed with my endeavors.

 

 One of the last operations during assembly called for

 cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then

 drilling a 3/16" hole in the last 1/2".  The hole

 accepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on a guide

 collar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain

 rotation.

 

 Emacs!

 

 

 When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the

 it turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what.

 It's the right length but now I need to drill the hole. No

 chance with any tools I have.

 

 I think I recall that steel can be heated to some pretty

 ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and cooled

 slowly to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is

 very un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and heat

 with a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents

 but the without some time consuming study, no immediate

 notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this part

 so that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills.

 

 Are there any folks on the list with some practical experience

 in this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but

 it ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any

 suggestions from the List?

 

    Bob . . .

csmale(at)bak.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:02 am Post subject: heat treat problem

rv7a.builder(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:20 am Post subject: heat treat problem

Is EDM an option?

 



    

From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com 

Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 10:32 AM

Subject: heat treat problem

  I've got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm

building a recovery parachute control system that

uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found

a really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr

and proceed with my endeavors.



One of the last operations during assembly called for

cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then

drilling a 3/16" hole in the last 1/2".  The hole

accepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on a guide

collar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain

rotation.



[img]cid:1.2922996926(at)web163601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com[/img]

 When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the

it turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what.

It's the right length but now I need to drill the hole. No

chance with any tools I have.



I think I recall that steel can be heated to some pretty

ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and cooled

slowly to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is

very un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and heat

with a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents

but the without some time consuming study, no immediate

notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this part

so that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills.



Are there any folks on the list with some practical experience

in this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but

it ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any

suggestions from the List?



  Bob . .  .

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Mark(at)wessonair.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:47 am Post subject: heat treat problem

There are many people that will say duh, but there may be a few that will

later thank me.



I have heard many complain about drilling the stainless firewall and taking

an hour and one drill bit per hole.

I will share what I learned the hard way.

I am able to drill the stainless in less that one minute and not dull a bit.



It is all about removing heat from the drill bit and the part you are

drilling.

If you use a high speed and it doesn't cut it will burn up the bit.

In order to remove the heat you need to have chips flying.

Aluminum is soft so the 4000rpm air drills we use work fine.

The chips are a flying carring the heat away.

For harder metals you need to increase the pressure and slow the bit down

until the chips fly.

It is as easy as that. Slow the drill speed down and increase the pressure

until the heat is removed by flying metal chips.

Now I have not tried anything too hard since I learned this but I sure have

made butter out of the stainless that other people complain about.  

Mark W

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:52 am Post subject: heat treat problem

Good Afternoon Bob, 

  

 Maybe this will jog a few memories.

  

 Back when I was in High School (Seventy Years Ago) My shop teacher taught  us how to make great hunting knives out of worn out files, We heated them with  an acetylene torch to bright red then stuck them into some sort of powder to  cool. Once they had cooled they were very easy to grind to the knife shape.  

  

 We then heated them back up again and quenched them in a light oil to  harden the edge. 

  

 My thought is that the powder we slow cooled them in was ordinary baking  flour. Anyone know for sure? 

  

 I am also fuzzy on just what liquid we used for the quick cool. May have  been something other than light oil.  All very far back in my faulty  memory, but maybe that will jog some one else's memory.  Worked like a  champ to turn those files in hunting knives.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

  

  In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:13:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I've got    a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm

building a recovery parachute    control system that

uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found

a    really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr

and proceed with my    endeavors.



One of the last operations during assembly called    for

cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then

drilling a    3/16" hole in the last 1/2".  The hole

accepts a roll-pin that runs in    the slot on a guide

collar to set stroke of the handle and to    restrain

rotation.

   

When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the

it    turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what.

It's the right    length but now I need to drill the hole. No

chance with any tools I    have.



I think I recall that steel can be heated to some    pretty

ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and cooled

slowly    to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is

very un-critical. I can    put a thermocouple on it and heat

with a torch. I've browsed some    heat-treat documents

but the without some time consuming study, no    immediate

notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this part

so    that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills.



Are there any    folks on the list with some practical experience

in this area? Hoping to    deliver this thing tomorrow but

it ain't gonna happen without the pin    installed. Any

suggestions from the List?



  Bob . . .

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N20DG

Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 61
Location: lancaster, texas

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:00 am Post subject: heat treat problem

Old Bob

 Probably that far back in our high school days it was sand any how that is  what my dad taught me to use when converting the worn out file to something  useful

 Older Dick

  

  In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:54:16 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Good Afternoon Bob, 

    

   Maybe this will jog a few memories.

    

   Back when I was in High School (Seventy Years Ago) My shop teacher taught    us how to make great hunting knives out of worn out files, We heated them with    an acetylene torch to bright red then stuck them into some sort of powder to    cool. Once they had cooled they were very easy to grind to the knife shape.    

    

   We then heated them back up again and quenched them in a light oil to    harden the edge. 

    

   My thought is that the powder we slow cooled them in was ordinary baking    flour. Anyone know for sure? 

    

   I am also fuzzy on just what liquid we used for the quick cool. May have    been something other than light oil.  All very far back in my faulty    memory, but maybe that will jog some one else's memory.  Worked like a    champ to turn those files in hunting knives.

    

   Happy Skies,

    

   Old Bob

    

      In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:13:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time,    nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes:

    	  Quote: 	
		  I've      got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm

building a recovery parachute      control system that

uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found

a      really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr

and proceed with my      endeavors.



One of the last operations during assembly called      for

cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then

drilling a      3/16" hole in the last 1/2".  The hole

accepts a roll-pin that runs      in the slot on a guide

collar to set stroke of the handle and to      restrain

rotation.

     

When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the

it      turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what.

It's the right      length but now I need to drill the hole. No

chance with any tools I      have.



I think I recall that steel can be heated to some      pretty

ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and      cooled

slowly to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is

very      un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and heat

with a torch. I've      browsed some heat-treat documents

but the without some time consuming      study, no immediate

notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this      part

so that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills.



Are      there any folks on the list with some practical experience

in this area?      Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but

it ain't gonna happen without      the pin installed. Any

suggestions from the List?



  Bob . . .

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Viewed:

8379 Time(s)

billp(at)wwpc.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:26 am Post subject: heat treat problem

handainc(at)madisoncounty
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:36 am Post subject: heat treat problem

Bob - 



If the part is not critical, just heat it up red hot, hold it there for a minute or so, and let it air cool.  Here is a fair discussion of the process. http://www.efunda.com/processes/heat_treat/softening/annealing.cfm

Alternatively, a very sharp drill bit, turned very slowly will also work with lots of cooling fluid.  I set up my drill press for that very purpose (had to drill some spring steel with out having to re-treat it) by installing a secondary motor with small pulley.  Liked it so well that way that I just left it set up.  Doesn't do well on soft metals, but is not nearly as hard on drill bits, and works for nearly any type of steel.  

M. Haught 

On Apr 3, 2013, at 1:51 PM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) wrote:[quote]   Good Afternoon Bob, 

  

 Maybe this will jog a few memories.

  

 Back when I was in High School (Seventy Years Ago) My shop teacher taught  us how to make great hunting knives out of worn out files, We heated them with  an acetylene torch to bright red then stuck them into some sort of powder to  cool. Once they had cooled they were very easy to grind to the knife shape.  

  

 We then heated them back up again and quenched them in a light oil to  harden the edge. 

  

 My thought is that the powder we slow cooled them in was ordinary baking  flour. Anyone know for sure? 

  

 I am also fuzzy on just what liquid we used for the quick cool. May have  been something other than light oil.  All very far back in my faulty  memory, but maybe that will jog some one else's memory.  Worked like a  champ to turn those files in hunting knives.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

  

  In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:13:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I've got    a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm

building a recovery parachute    control system that

uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found

a    really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr

and proceed with my    endeavors.



One of the last operations during assembly called    for

cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then

drilling a    3/16" hole in the last 1/2".  The hole

accepts a roll-pin that runs in    the slot on a guide

collar to set stroke of the handle and to    restrain

rotation.



<1efc966e.jpg>



When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the

it    turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what.

It's the right    length but now I need to drill the hole. No

chance with any tools I    have.



I think I recall that steel can be heated to some    pretty

ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and cooled

slowly    to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is

very un-critical. I can    put a thermocouple on it and heat

with a torch. I've browsed some    heat-treat documents

but the without some time consuming study, no    immediate

notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this part

so    that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills.



Are there any    folks on the list with some practical experience

in this area? Hoping to    deliver this thing tomorrow but

it ain't gonna happen without the pin    installed. Any

suggestions from the List?



  Bob . . .    	




[b]

millner(at)me.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:14 pm Post subject: heat treat problem

On 4/3/2013 11:51 AM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com)       wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		   the         powder we slow cooled them in was ordinary baking flour. Anyone         know for sure? 	
     

     Flour is combustible, and if you generate flour dust, explosive...     probably not a good thing to put very hot metal objects into.

     

     Paul

      [quote][b]

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:36 pm Post subject: heat treat problem

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:08 pm Post subject: heat treat problem

At 02:35 PM 4/3/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob - 



 If the part is not critical, just heat it up red hot, hold it there for a minute or so, and let it air cool.  Here is a fair discussion of the process.  http://www.efunda.com/processes/heat_treat/softening/annealing.cfm 	


   Essentially that's what I did. 



  	  Quote: 	
		  Alternatively, a very sharp drill bit, turned very slowly will also work with lots of cooling fluid.  I set up my drill press for that very purpose (had to drill some spring steel with out having to re-treat it) by installing a secondary motor with small pulley.  Liked it so well that way that I just left it set up.  Doesn't do well on soft metals, but is not nearly as hard on drill bits, and works for nearly any type of steel.  	


   I tried that earlier but the stuff was so hard

   my center punch wouldn't even mark it! Couldn't

   get a bit to set still in one spot long enough to

   remove any material.



   Softening it up worked great.



 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:09 pm Post subject: heat treat problem

Based on the old         articles I've read about heat             treating and tempering it could have been               sifted wood ash, or                   asbestos.  Just things I've read about people using.  It was probably oil you dipped in to quench.

                           

                                 	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
       On 04/03/2013 01:51 PM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                         Good Afternoon Bob, 

          

         Maybe this will jog a few memories.

          

         Back when I was in High School (Seventy Years Ago) My shop           teacher taught us how to make great hunting knives out of worn           out files, We heated them with an acetylene torch to bright           red then stuck them into some sort of powder to cool. Once           they had cooled they were very easy to grind to the knife           shape. 

          

         We then heated them back up again and quenched them in a           light oil to harden the edge. 

          

         My thought is that the powder we slow cooled them in was           ordinary baking flour. Anyone know for sure? 

          

         I am also fuzzy on just what liquid we used for the quick           cool. May have been something other than light oil.  All very           far back in my faulty memory, but maybe that will jog some one           else's memory.  Worked like a champ to turn those files in           hunting knives.

          

         Happy Skies,

          

         Old Bob

          

                    In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:13:38 P.M. Central Daylight             Time, nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)             writes:

            	  Quote: 	
		  I've               got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm

               building a recovery parachute control system that

               uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found

               a really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr

               and proceed with my endeavors.

               

               One of the last operations during assembly called for

               cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then

               drilling a 3/16" hole in the last 1/2".  The hole

               accepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on a guide

               collar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain

               rotation.

               

             	
         

       	
     

     Image removed

     [quote]                     	  Quote: 	
		                    

When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel,                   the

                   it turned out to bet harder than the                   hubs-of-you-know-what.

                   It's the right length but now I need to drill the                   hole. No

                   chance with any tools I have.

                   

                   I think I recall that steel can be heated to some                   pretty

                   ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and                   cooled

                   slowly to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area                   is

                   very un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and                   heat

                   with a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents

                   but the without some time consuming study, no                   immediate

                   notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this                   part

                   so that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed                   drills.

                   

                   Are there any folks on the list with some practical                   experience

                   in this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow                   but

                   it ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any

                   suggestions from the List?

                   

                     Bob . . .                	
         

        [b]

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