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brad(at)runawaymedia.co.z
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 Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:15 am Post subject: Engine is making aluminum |
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Oh dear, was all i could muster after my AME called. The engine is 30hrs old .During a routine climb out at 80%, the aircraft developed a significant rhythmic hum.enough for me to look for an alternative landing option. Throttling back to 68% the vibration settled down and almost faded all together. Pullong in to the Amo I askedhim to look at it.
Prop 30hrs
Engine 650hrs tt
Smoh 30hrs
The AME found that at 45% the instrument testing vibration reads 0, 2 then at80% was last seen passing 10.
The AME pulled the prop and had the oil tested. No chrome or bearing material but an unusual amount of aluminium in the hub (due to the centrifuge effect).
The run out is zero on the flange and there is no noticeable lash or give in the propeller shaft.
We are planning on a complete flush of the oil .
And fit a spare prop to rule out the prop as a source of the vibration.
Any one wanting to take a shot at were the aluminium is being produced?
Regards brad
Sent from Samsung Mobile
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bwade154(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:05 am Post subject: Engine is making aluminum |
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I remember reading about an oil ring that was replaced incorrectly quite a few years ago that put enough metal through the engine to light the chip detector. I don't recall if a vibration was detected, I think the fellow that it happened to still monitors the list.
Bill Wade
From: Bradly Banks <brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 1:11 PM
Subject: Engine is making aluminum
Oh dear, was all i could muster after my AME called. The engine is 30hrs old .During a routine climb out at 80%, the aircraft developed a significant rhythmic hum.enough for me to look for an alternative landing option. Throttling back to 68% the vibration settled down and almost faded all together. Pullong in to the Amo I askedhim to look at it.
Prop 30hrs
Engine 650hrs tt
Smoh 30hrs
The AME found that at 45% the instrument testing vibration reads 0, 2 then at80% was last seen passing 10.
The AME pulled the prop and had the oil tested. No chrome or bearing material but an unusual amount of aluminium in the hub (due to the centrifuge effect).
The run out is zero on the flange and there is no noticeable lash or give in the propeller shaft.
We are planning on a complete flush of the oil .
And fit a spare prop to rule out the prop as a source of the vibration.
Any one wanting to take a shot at were the aluminium is being produced?
Regards brad
Sent from Samsung Mobile
¦·›~‰í²,Þg(–ŠÓM4ÓGÚqü¢êâz¹ÞÁÊ.®'«8^a©ŠËD™¨¥Šî�,zØ^1«k¢xœ°¸¬´Wš¶êÞ°Ö¯Š¢»hnº0±í…隟"â²ÛŠX‰ë,¹ÈZ°¸¬µIÿJæìr¸©¶*'
[quote][b]
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brad(at)runawaymedia.co.z
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| Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:21 am Post subject: Engine is making aluminum |
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Thankyou Bill, ill keep you posted on the progress.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: bill wade <bwade154(at)yahoo.com>
Date:
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Engine is making aluminum
I remember reading about an oil ring that was replaced incorrectly quite a few years ago that put enough metal through the engine to light the chip detector. I don't recall if a vibration was detected, I think the fellow that it happened to still monitors the list.
Bill Wade
From: Bradly Banks <brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 1:11 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Engine is making aluminum
Oh dear, was all i could muster after my AME called. The engine is 30hrs old .During a routine climb out at 80%, the aircraft developed a significant rhythmic hum.enough for me to look for an alternative landing option. Throttling back to 68% the vibration settled down and almost faded all together. Pullong in to the Amo I askedhim to look at it.
Prop 30hrs
Engine 650hrs tt
Smoh 30hrs
The AME found that at 45% the instrument testing vibration reads 0, 2 then at80% was last seen passing 10.
The AME pulled the prop and had the oil tested. No chrome or bearing material but an unusual amount of aluminium in the hub (due to the centrifuge effect).
The run out is zero on the flange and there is no noticeable lash or give in the propeller shaft.
We are planning on a complete flush of the oil .
And fit a spare prop to rule out the prop as a source of the vibration.
Any one wanting to take a shot at were the aluminium is being produced?
Regards brad
Sent from Samsung Mobile
¦·›~‰í²,Þg(–ŠÓM4ÓGÚqü¢êâz¹ÞÁÊ.®'«8^a©ŠËD™¨¥Šî�,zØ^1«k¢xœ°¸¬´Wš¶êÞ°Ö¯Š¢»hnº0±í…隟"â²ÛŠX‰ë,¹ÈZ°¸¬µIÿJæìr¸©¶*'
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:17 pm Post subject: Engine is making aluminum |
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If your sure its aluminum it could very well be a piston. I had a new M-14p right from the factory where the #3 piston had a scraper ring in place of the oil ring. (Things happen like that even very "controlled" countries). Anyway (at 438 hours) the chip light came on right as I started the engine during a fuel stop returning from OSH. While mine didn't exhibit a vibration, its not out of the question, particular if the balance is thrown off some. The pistons are machined from aluminum castings, and bits are not unusual to find in a filter. But large amounts are a no, no. In many cases the "lands" of the piston brake off and at the same time the steel rings may brake also. The steel edges will chew the softer aluminum. If you're lucky and the steel ring pieces haven't started migrating though the engine, the aluminum is soft and less destructive.
A compression check may be able spot the offending cylinder and hopefully only require a replacement. This can be done in 2 days if all the parts, tools, and willing hands are at hand, along with a couple cans of beer for your buds. OR it can be much worse.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 4/28/2013 3:21:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za writes:
| Quote: |
Thankyou Bill, ill keep you posted on the progress.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: bill wade <bwade154(at)yahoo.com>
Date:
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engine is making aluminum
I remember reading about an oil ring that was replaced incorrectly quite a few years ago that put enough metal through the engine to light the chip detector. I don't recall if a vibration was detected, I think the fellow that it happened to still monitors the list.
Bill Wade
From: Bradly Banks <brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 1:11 PM
Subject: Engine is making aluminum
Oh dear, was all i could muster after my AME called. The engine is 30hrs old .During a routine climb out at 80%, the aircraft developed a significant rhythmic hum.enough for me to look for an alternative landing option. Throttling back to 68% the vibration settled down and almost faded all together. Pullong in to the Amo I askedhim to look at it.
Prop 30hrs
Engine 650hrs tt
Smoh 30hrs
The AME found that at 45% the instrument testing vibration reads 0, 2 then at80% was last seen passing 10.
The AME pulled the prop and had the oil tested. No chrome or bearing material but an unusual amount of aluminium in the hub (due to the centrifuge effect).
The run out is zero on the flange and there is no noticeable lash or give in the propeller shaft.
We are planning on a complete flush of the oil .
And fit a spare prop to rule out the prop as a source of the vibration.
Any one wanting to take a shot at were the aluminium is being produced?
Regards brad
Sent from Samsung Mobile
¦·›~‰í²,Þg(–ŠÓM4ÓGÚqü¢êâz¹ÞÁÊ.®'«8^a©ŠËD™¨¥Šî�,zØ^1«k¢xœ°¸¬´Wš¶êÞ°Ö¯Š¢»hnº0±í…隟"â²ÛŠX‰ë,¹ÈZ°¸¬µIÿJæìr¸©¶*'
~44} r{(8^a j',.+-歺5h,z+-إ؞˜ bp+ry' 塧{ ,x(ZP>-kkj+yky&j',r5h.+-(BIa1$y\{^֥j)ZnWayg |
[quote][b]
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brad(at)runawaymedia.co.z
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| Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:51 pm Post subject: Engine is making aluminum |
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Thanks pappy, we are holding our breath at the moment, I seem to remember a morning 3weeks back it was very cold and the oil pressure struggled to get past 1, 5 for a few minutes then rose to 6 where it usually resides we are a thicker 120 oil for our hotter temps. My thinking is that the debris could be from the lobes in the oil pump.Time will tell.
Thanks for all you kind input.
BRAD
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Date:
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Engine is making aluminum
If your sure its aluminum it could very well be a piston. I had a new M-14p right from the factory where the #3 piston had a scraper ring in place of the oil ring. (Things happen like that even very "controlled" countries). Anyway (at 438 hours) the chip light came on right as I started the engine during a fuel stop returning from OSH. While mine didn't exhibit a vibration, its not out of the question, particular if the balance is thrown off some. The pistons are machined from aluminum castings, and bits are not unusual to find in a filter. But largeamounts are a no, no. In many cases the "lands" of the piston brake off and at the same time the steel rings may brake also. The steel edges will chew the softer aluminum. If you're lucky and the steel ring pieces haven't started migrating though the engine, the aluminum is soft and less destructive.
A compression check may be ablespot the offending cylinder and hopefully only require a replacement. This can be done in 2 days if all the parts, tools, and willing handsare at hand, along with a couple cans of beer for your buds. OR it can be much worse.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 4/28/2013 3:21:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za writes:
| Quote: |
Thankyou Bill, ill keep you posted on the progress.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: bill wade <bwade154(at)yahoo.com>
Date:
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Engine is making aluminum
I remember reading about an oil ring that was replaced incorrectly quite a few years ago that put enough metal through the engine to light the chip detector.I don't recall if a vibration was detected, I think the fellow that it happened to still monitors the list.
Bill Wade
From: Bradly Banks <brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 1:11 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Engine is making aluminum
Oh dear, was all i could muster after my AME called. The engine is 30hrs old .During a routine climb out at 80%, the aircraft developed a significant rhythmic hum.enough for me to look for an alternative landing option. Throttling back to 68% the vibration settled down and almost faded all together. Pullong in to the Amo I askedhim to look at it.
Prop 30hrs
Engine 650hrs tt
Smoh 30hrs
The AME found that at 45% the instrument testing vibration reads 0, 2 then at80% was last seen passing 10.
The AME pulled the prop and had the oil tested. No chrome or bearing material but an unusual amount of aluminium in the hub (due to the centrifuge effect).
The run out is zero on the flange and there is no noticeable lash or give in the propeller shaft.
We are planning on a complete flush of the oil .
And fit a spare prop to rule out the prop as a source of the vibration.
Any one wanting to take a shot at were the aluminium is being produced?
Regards brad
Sent from Samsung Mobile
¦·›~‰í²,Þg(–ŠÓM4ÓGÚqü¢êâz¹ÞÁÊ.®'«8^a©ŠËD™¨¥Šî�,zØ^1«k¢xœ°¸¬´Wš¶êÞ°Ö¯Š¢»hnº0±í…隟"â²ÛŠX‰ë,¹ÈZ°¸¬µIÿJæìr¸©¶*'
~44} r{(8^a j',.+-歺5h,z+-إ؞˜ bp+ry' 塧{ ,x(ZP>-kkj+yky&j',r5h.+-(BIa1$y\{^֥j)ZnWayg |
[quote][b]
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ariekert
Joined: 19 Jun 2011
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:38 am Post subject: Re: Engine is making aluminum |
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Brad,
when your A&P measures vibrations, he should be able to tell the frequency of it. Crank shaft and prop speeds are quite different an easy to tell from each other. That way you can rule out one system before taking everything apart......
Cheers,
Armin
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:53 am Post subject: Engine is making aluminum |
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Brad,
Not meaning to disagree with Pappy, because every word he said is true... so this is not in disagreement with anyone or anything.
However, I know a tiny bit about the M-14 and how it works, and these thoughts come to mind.
1. In my 43 years of working on larger aircraft as a Field Engineer, the one axiom that works more often than not is: When you have an unusual problem, look at what was just worked on (or changed) last, and eliminate that possibility first. In your case, the prop has 30 hours on it, and there is aluminum in the hub. Props can make engines vibrate. As in: Ya think? The engine has 650 hours on it without a problem of this nature. Although pistons and rings do come apart, it is the second thing I would look for and not the first given 30 hours on the prop. New prop, prop has aluminum in it, prop can make engine vibrate, hmmm... look at prop! (And yes, you already figured this out I know)
2. The prop governor has an oil screen. Has it been checked? Quite important that it DOES get checked. If there is no aluminum in the prop governor screen and none in the main oil screen, then it is more than likely that the aluminum came from inside the prop to begin with... and then there is the fact that it has only been on the engine for 30 hours .. hint hint. 
So check the oil screens .... ALL of them, before you start flushing anything.
Just my two cents, and ask some of the better engine guys, like the folks that rebuild them ... George Coy, etc.
Mark
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Bill vH
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:28 am Post subject: Re: Engine is making aluminum |
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Mark,
Engine is 30 SMOH, too.
Bill
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:11 am Post subject: Engine is making aluminum |
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Saw that too and decided to keep my mouth shut. I have a new engine that had been pickled for 6 years. I'm afraid to even ask what it is making right now.
Doc
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brad(at)runawaymedia.co.z
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:37 am Post subject: Engine is making aluminum |
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This was also in storage for 5 , Mark is quite right it's a bit like asking "how long is a piece of string".lets just hope that it isn't a disaster that we can't recover from . This engine is the equivalent to 5 yrs university, or a fully paid up Com licence.
Thanks again for all the time takrn by the contributors to this forum.
Brad
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: Roger Kemp <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>
Date:
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine is making aluminum
--> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>
Saw that too and decided to keep my mouth shut. I have a new engine that had been pickled for 6 years. I'm afraid to even ask what it is making right now.
Doc
--
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:04 pm Post subject: Engine is making aluminum |
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Copy Brad, good luck.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 29, 2013, at 1:34 PM, Bradly Banks <brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za (brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za)> wrote:
[quote]
This was also in storage for 5 , Mark is quite right it's a bit like asking "how long is a piece of string".lets just hope that it isn't a disaster that we can't recover from . This engine is the equivalent to 5 yrs university, or a fully paid up Com licence.
Thanks again for all the time takrn by the contributors to this forum.
Brad
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: Roger Kemp <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)>
Date:
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Engine is making aluminum
--> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)>
Saw that too and decided to keep my mouth shut. I have a new engine that had been pickled for 6 years. I'm afraid to even ask what it is making right now.
Doc
--
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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