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rehn(at)rockisland.com
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 Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:45 am Post subject: 914 rough running |
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A little history. Engine has about 450 hours, always ran quite well, replaced upper ignition module about two years ago.
On recent full boost takeoff, got to about 900 feet leveled off, pulled throttle back and engine ran severe rough, pulled back to idle and engine ran ok, didn’t stop! Landed. Checked fuel filter, ok, looked for anything around carbs, nothing. Tried several full run ups, ok. Tried second take off everything fine, pulled back and again engine ran severe rough, pulled back to idle, ran rough, landed. Parked plane, got tools, next day removed carbs looked for issues. Found one of the four screws that holds down the rubber diaphragm loose, very strange because I have never removed this before. Anyway figured this was my problem. Fixed took off all ok. Got home. Next day tried full boost, same issue again, didn’t take off. Got carburetor repair kit and went through both carbs. Reinstalled carbs double checked. Started right up, as I move the throttle past 2300 rpm the yellow caution light starts blinking, engine runs rough, reduce rpm the light goes off, increase the light comes back on. Seems the engine runs off the idle jet ok but not on the main jet.
I have also checked the waste gate for proper function, fuel pressure ok, turbo lights come on and go off as they should when master is tuned on, I have looked at the vent lines. The yellow blinking light can indicate a sensor failure, seems like it would continue blinking if there was a failure. Seems odd that it stops at low rpm. Seems I have some kind of a vacuum or pressure issue, but am running out of ideas. I am about to go and recheck again! Could a faulty sensor cause this?
Hope someone out there has some wise thoughts on this frustrating problem. Worse yet, we have beautiful spring flying weather!
Thanks for help.
Jerry
914 Mono XS
[quote][b]
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:58 am Post subject: 914 rough running |
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Jerry,
When you rebuilt the carbs, did the rebuild kit come with "O" rings rather than gaskets for the big bolt that holds the carb bowl on?
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)
On May 5, 2013, at 2:43 PM, Jerry Rehn <rehn(at)rockisland.com (rehn(at)rockisland.com)> wrote:
A little history. Engine has about 450 hours, always ran quite well, replaced upper ignition module about two years ago.
On recent full boost takeoff, got to about 900 feet leveled off, pulled throttle back and engine ran severe rough, pulled back to idle and engine ran ok, didn’t stop! Landed. Checked fuel filter, ok, looked for anything around carbs, nothing. Tried several full run ups, ok. Tried second take off everything fine, pulled back and again engine ran severe rough, pulled back to idle, ran rough, landed. Parked plane, got tools, next day removed carbs looked for issues. Found one of the four screws that holds down the rubber diaphragm loose, very strange because I have never removed this before. Anyway figured this was my problem. Fixed took off all ok. Got home. Next day tried full boost, same issue again, didn’t take off. Got carburetor repair kit and went through both carbs. Reinstalled carbs double checked. Started right up, as I move the throttle past 2300 rpm the yellow caution light starts blinking, engine runs rough, reduce rpm the light goes off, increase the light comes back on. Seems the engine runs off the idle jet ok but not on the main jet.
I have also checked the waste gate for proper function, fuel pressure ok, turbo lights come on and go off as they should when master is tuned on, I have looked at the vent lines. The yellow blinking light can indicate a sensor failure, seems like it would continue blinking if there was a failure. Seems odd that it stops at low rpm. Seems I have some kind of a vacuum or pressure issue, but am running out of ideas. I am about to go and recheck again! Could a faulty sensor cause this?
Hope someone out there has some wise thoughts on this frustrating problem. Worse yet, we have beautiful spring flying weather!
Thanks for help.
Jerry
914 Mono XS
[quote][b]
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rehn(at)rockisland.com
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:13 pm Post subject: 914 rough running |
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Bob
The kit didn't include the o ring, go figure. I had to order them separately, but that's what I have on now, which replaced the old style flat washer.
Sent from my iPad
On May 5, 2013, at 12:57 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)> wrote:
[quote]Jerry,
When you rebuilt the carbs, did the rebuild kit come with "O" rings rather than gaskets for the big bolt that holds the carb bowl on?
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)
On May 5, 2013, at 2:43 PM, Jerry Rehn <rehn(at)rockisland.com (rehn(at)rockisland.com)> wrote:
A little history. Engine has about 450 hours, always ran quite well, replaced upper ignition module about two years ago.
On recent full boost takeoff, got to about 900 feet leveled off, pulled throttle back and engine ran severe rough, pulled back to idle and engine ran ok, didn’t stop! Landed. Checked fuel filter, ok, looked for anything around carbs, nothing. Tried several full run ups, ok. Tried second take off everything fine, pulled back and again engine ran severe rough, pulled back to idle, ran rough, landed. Parked plane, got tools, next day removed carbs looked for issues. Found one of the four screws that holds down the rubber diaphragm loose, very strange because I have never removed this before. Anyway figured this was my problem. Fixed took off all ok. Got home. Next day tried full boost, same issue again, didn’t take off. Got carburetor repair kit and went through both carbs. Reinstalled carbs double checked. Started right up, as I move the throttle past 2300 rpm the yellow caution light starts blinking, engine runs rough, reduce rpm the light goes off, increase the light comes back on. Seems the engine runs off the idle jet ok but not on the main jet.
I have also checked the waste gate for proper function, fuel pressure ok, turbo lights come on and go off as they should when master is tuned on, I have looked at the vent lines. The yellow blinking light can indicate a sensor failure, seems like it would continue blinking if there was a failure. Seems odd that it stops at low rpm. Seems I have some kind of a vacuum or pressure issue, but am running out of ideas. I am about to go and recheck again! Could a faulty sensor cause this?
Hope someone out there has some wise thoughts on this frustrating problem. Worse yet, we have beautiful spring flying weather!
Thanks for help.
Jerry
914 Mono XS
| Quote: |
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tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
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cs.com
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matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:45 pm Post subject: 914 rough running |
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Jerry,
OK. That's your problem if you tightened the bolt to published Rotax torque specs.
The O-ring is considerably thicker than the flat fiber washer. It deforms the base of the carb bowl upwards so that it restricts the fuel flow into the main jet. You don't have enough fuel flow to get your RPM above 2200-2400 RPM.
I chased this same problem for almost 3 months before Nathan, the Rotax tech from U.S.Aviation, happened to stop by the hanger one day. He looked at it and immediately saw the problem as he'd worked on another Europa with the same issue. I taxied the aircraft over to his shop and he had it fixed in 2 days. He took the carb bowls off and restored them to the correct shape. Then reassembled them carefully with just enough torque on the bolt to seat the O-ring but not deform the bowl.
I don't know what technique Nathan used to correct the bent bowl bottom, but that will have to be done. Maybe you can find a Rotax tech in your area familiar with the problem who can do it for you.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)
On May 5, 2013, at 7:12 PM, Jerry Rehn <rehn(at)rockisland.com (rehn(at)rockisland.com)> wrote:
Bob
The kit didn't include the o ring, go figure. I had to order them separately, but that's what I have on now, which replaced the old style flat washer.
Sent from my iPad
[quote][b]
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rehn(at)rockisland.com
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:37 pm Post subject: 914 rough running |
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Bob
Any idea what torque setting he used? And how he reshaped the bowls?
Sent from my iPad
On May 5, 2013, at 5:45 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)> wrote:
[quote]Jerry,
OK. That's your problem if you tightened the bolt to published Rotax torque specs.
The O-ring is considerably thicker than the flat fiber washer. It deforms the base of the carb bowl upwards so that it restricts the fuel flow into the main jet. You don't have enough fuel flow to get your RPM above 2200-2400 RPM.
I chased this same problem for almost 3 months before Nathan, the Rotax tech from U.S.Aviation, happened to stop by the hanger one day. He looked at it and immediately saw the problem as he'd worked on another Europa with the same issue. I taxied the aircraft over to his shop and he had it fixed in 2 days. He took the carb bowls off and restored them to the correct shape. Then reassembled them carefully with just enough torque on the bolt to seat the O-ring but not deform the bowl.
I don't know what technique Nathan used to correct the bent bowl bottom, but that will have to be done. Maybe you can find a Rotax tech in your area familiar with the problem who can do it for you.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)
On May 5, 2013, at 7:12 PM, Jerry Rehn <rehn(at)rockisland.com (rehn(at)rockisland.com)> wrote:
Bob
The kit didn't include the o ring, go figure. I had to order them separately, but that's what I have on now, which replaced the old style flat washer.
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: |
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tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
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cs.com
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matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:08 am Post subject: 914 rough running |
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Jerry,
No to both questions. I hope to be at the airport later this morning. I'll see if Nathan is working today or when he is working so I can ask him.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)
On May 5, 2013, at 10:36 PM, Jerry Rehn <rehn(at)rockisland.com (rehn(at)rockisland.com)> wrote:
Bob
Any idea what torque setting he used? And how he reshaped the bowls?
Sent from my iPad
[quote][b]
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h&jeuropa
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:58 am Post subject: Re: 914 rough running |
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Jerry,
We also have a 914 with about 425 hours on it. SN is 4418263. When we had the carbs rebuilt in November by LEAF, the bowl attachment screw 963-281 was replaced. The explanation was that O ring needs a different attachment bolt and the o ring has superseded the flat gasket as the current revision of the carb. And yes, the O rings were not part of the overhaul kit - they were another $6.31 each.
The attachment bolt is a pricy little item, $72.50 each!!
Hope this helps. Talk to Brett at LEAF 800-532-3462 for more info.
Jim & Heather
N241BW
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klinefelter.kevin(at)gmai
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 5:31 am Post subject: 914 rough running |
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I know that if you over-tourqe this that the little brass rods that the floats ride up and down on will splay outward as the bottom of the bowl is deformed. You should be able to see if that's the problem.
Kevin
On May 6, 2013, at 3:07 AM, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)> wrote:
[quote]Jerry,
No to both questions. I hope to be at the airport later this morning. I'll see if Nathan is working today or when he is working so I can ask him.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)
On May 5, 2013, at 10:36 PM, Jerry Rehn <rehn(at)rockisland.com (rehn(at)rockisland.com)> wrote:
Bob
Any idea what torque setting he used? And how he reshaped the bowls?
Sent from my iPad
[b]
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rehn(at)rockisland.com
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 5:57 am Post subject: 914 rough running |
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Bob &Kevin, thanks for info, I am back out to take off and exam bowl, makes a lot of sense, for issues I'm having.
Sent from my iPad
On May 6, 2013, at 6:30 AM, Kevin Klinefelter <klinefelter.kevin(at)gmail.com (klinefelter.kevin(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]I know that if you over-tourqe this that the little brass rods that the floats ride up and down on will splay outward as the bottom of the bowl is deformed. You should be able to see if that's the problem.
Kevin
On May 6, 2013, at 3:07 AM, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Jerry,
No to both questions. I hope to be at the airport later this morning. I'll see if Nathan is working today or when he is working so I can ask him.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)
On May 5, 2013, at 10:36 PM, Jerry Rehn <rehn(at)rockisland.com (rehn(at)rockisland.com)> wrote:
Bob
Any idea what torque setting he used? And how he reshaped the bowls?
Sent from my iPad
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
a-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
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//forums.matronics.com
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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rehn(at)rockisland.com
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 5:59 am Post subject: 914 rough running |
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Thanks Jim.
Sent from my iPad
On May 6, 2013, at 3:58 AM, "h&jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Jerry,
We also have a 914 with about 425 hours on it. SN is 4418263. When we had the carbs rebuilt in November by LEAF, the bowl attachment screw 963-281 was replaced. The explanation was that O ring needs a different attachment bolt and the o ring has superseded the flat gasket as the current revision of the carb. And yes, the O rings were not part of the overhaul kit - they were another $6.31 each.
The attachment bolt is a pricy little item, $72.50 each!!
Hope this helps. Talk to Brett at LEAF 800-532-3462 for more info.
Jim & Heather
N241BW
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400034#400034
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rehn(at)rockisland.com
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:12 am Post subject: 914 rough running |
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Fred Klein
Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:04 am Post subject: 914 rough running |
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On May 6, 2013, at 6:59 AM, Jerry Rehn wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | The attachment bolt is a pricy little item, $72.50 each!!
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Jim...tell me that you've misplaced a decimal point...
Fred
do not archive
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budyerly(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:42 pm Post subject: 914 rough running |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Jerry,
Please note that the 914 is a bugger to troubleshoot, and all the advice so far is notable and spot on.
Since the engine has two problems: (1) Rough after pulling it back and (2) TCU Caution light, I will deal with 2 first...
2. The caution light is most probably your throttle pot is not hooked up electrically or the pot was not set to idle with the throttle plate closed so check your connections and pot rotation after doing the carb. Easy mistake, especially since the book doesn't cover it. If not set properly, the TCU gets the wrong throttle position for the Turbo boost and pressure sensors.
1. With you having the same hours I have on my engine, I have noticed that with all the tubing and carb float bowl items operating properly and no fuel leaks, the engine on power reduction runs very rough but idles well and runs well above 4000 RPM. I suspect yours is similar.
It is not uncommon that one of the carb pistons is hanging up. Once the piston goes up on full throttle, one doesn't want to come down. I removed the carburetors again. I completely drained and freed both my carbs of fuel to prevent an explosion. I rigged my vacuum cleaner and pulled air from the manifold side and noted the movement of the piston. On the left carb it was clearly hanging up. After much cleaning, sanding with 1000 and 1500 grit paper, polishing and more cleaning, the piston is acceptable in its movement and smoothness. If your carb pistons move smoothly and in unison (checked by noting the throttle angle vs piston position) then that should make the carbs balance in the mid range. If the main carb body is worn or scored badly, some small grit has gotten into the carb and I am afraid you can save a lot of time and trouble by buying two new carbs. By the way, that is about the price of a small car down payment.
To Bob Borgers comment, I have found that leaving the float bowl gasket in place and adding the new extra O ring (with a bit of lube) allows me to install the original float bowl attachment screw and I torque it to 48 inch pounds. Be sure to soak your paper gasket in fuel for a few minutes. Note that the old manual said 5.5 nm or 45 foot pounds. Obviously 45 foot pounds is going to seriously bend the bottom of the carb bowl and the pins. Luckily, a quick $100 per float bowl will fix that. I have found that it necessary to pay attention to the translation and conversions in the old manual. The new manual has the torque hidden in the verbage so well that I had to post it to my board in the shop. Please pay close attention to your brass float pins and the float bowl. Also make sure your float needle valve and arms are undamaged.
I have been very disappointed in the fit of the new carb parts such as the needle fixation screw with the O ring. It sucks.
I hope your carbs just need a little tender love and care and not replacement. I am at my last straw with my 1/3 side carb, so I may be spending some big bucks.
Regards,
Bud Yerly
[quote] ---
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budyerly(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 1:33 pm Post subject: 914 rough running |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Jerry,
OOPS,
I forgot to add that at 450 hours, if you have been running rough for a while, the needle and its jet tends bang around and wear a bit. Suggest you change those.
Also, the main jet in my aircraft were 162s. The SB 914-002 was never accomplished (by the dealer) because the engine ran well. I didn't mic my jets but went ahead and put in the recommended 160 and 164 jets recommended on 1/3 and 2/4 respectively. It really helps.
Finally, the float bowl nut mentioned: I still use my old nut, but I use the fiber and the O ring together to keep the nut from bottoming out on the main jet. Don't forget to soak your paper gaskets. Torque it up, then wait overnight and torque again as that pesky O ring tends to take a set and sure enough at full power at altitude the gasket just may leak.
Regards,
Bud
[quote] ---
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rehn(at)rockisland.com
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| Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:15 pm Post subject: 914 rough running |
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Thanks for your advice, I’m working my way through all this, waiting for new float bowls, so should be next week before I fire up the engine.
Regards and thanks
Jerry
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Yerly
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 2:42 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: 914 rough running
Jerry,
Please note that the 914 is a bugger to troubleshoot, and all the advice so far is notable and spot on.
Since the engine has two problems: (1) Rough after pulling it back and (2) TCU Caution light, I will deal with 2 first...
2. The caution light is most probably your throttle pot is not hooked up electrically or the pot was not set to idle with the throttle plate closed so check your connections and pot rotation after doing the carb. Easy mistake, especially since the book doesn't cover it. If not set properly, the TCU gets the wrong throttle position for the Turbo boost and pressure sensors.
1. With you having the same hours I have on my engine, I have noticed that with all the tubing and carb float bowl items operating properly and no fuel leaks, the engine on power reduction runs very rough but idles well and runs well above 4000 RPM. I suspect yours is similar.
It is not uncommon that one of the carb pistons is hanging up. Once the piston goes up on full throttle, one doesn't want to come down. I removed the carburetors again. I completely drained and freed both my carbs of fuel to prevent an explosion. I rigged my vacuum cleaner and pulled air from the manifold side and noted the movement of the piston. On the left carb it was clearly hanging up. After much cleaning, sanding with 1000 and 1500 grit paper, polishing and more cleaning, the piston is acceptable in its movement and smoothness. If your carb pistons move smoothly and in unison (checked by noting the throttle angle vs piston position) then that should make the carbs balance in the mid range. If the main carb body is worn or scored badly, some small grit has gotten into the carb and I am afraid you can save a lot of time and trouble by buying two new carbs. By the way, that is about the price of a small car down payment.
To Bob Borgers comment, I have found that leaving the float bowl gasket in place and adding the new extra O ring (with a bit of lube) allows me to install the original float bowl attachment screw and I torque it to 48 inch pounds. Be sure to soak your paper gasket in fuel for a few minutes. Note that the old manual said 5.5 nm or 45 foot pounds. Obviously 45 foot pounds is going to seriously bend the bottom of the carb bowl and the pins. Luckily, a quick $100 per float bowl will fix that. I have found that it necessary to pay attention to the translation and conversions in the old manual. The new manual has the torque hidden in the verbage so well that I had to post it to my board in the shop. Please pay close attention to your brass float pins and the float bowl. Also make sure your float needle valve and arms are undamaged.
I have been very disappointed in the fit of the new carb parts such as the needle fixation screw with the O ring. It sucks.
I hope your carbs just need a little tender love and care and not replacement. I am at my last straw with my 1/3 side carb, so I may be spending some big bucks.
Regards,
Bud Yerly
[quote]
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rehn(at)rockisland.com
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 7:08 pm Post subject: 914 rough running |
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Bud
I have the new float chambers and new orings for the retraining nut and now see the oring wants to buldge out a bit on torquing down. I assume the new revised bolt has provisions for the oring that the current bolt does not. You indicated that yours worked ok. I am hoping to not have to purchase the new bolts at about $80 each!
But I am not happy with the oring not fitting perfectly. I see you left the old washers in place as well, I don't see how that will keep the oring from pressing out. I torqued down to only 46 inch. I didn't lube them, thought this would make it worse? Tomorrow I will try some lube but welcome any other suggestions.
Thanks
Regards
Jerry
Sent from my iPad
On May 6, 2013, at 2:41 PM, "Bud Yerly" <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
[quote] (at)page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; } P.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } LI.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } DIV.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.EmailStyle17 { FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: windowtext; mso-style-type: personal-compose } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } <?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Jerry,
Please note that the 914 is a bugger to troubleshoot, and all the advice so far is notable and spot on.
Since the engine has two problems: (1) Rough after pulling it back and (2) TCU Caution light, I will deal with 2 first...
2. The caution light is most probably your throttle pot is not hooked up electrically or the pot was not set to idle with the throttle plate closed so check your connections and pot rotation after doing the carb. Easy mistake, especially since the book doesn't cover it. If not set properly, the TCU gets the wrong throttle position for the Turbo boost and pressure sensors.
1. With you having the same hours I have on my engine, I have noticed that with all the tubing and carb float bowl items operating properly and no fuel leaks, the engine on power reduction runs very rough but idles well and runs well above 4000 RPM. I suspect yours is similar.
It is not uncommon that one of the carb pistons is hanging up. Once the piston goes up on full throttle, one doesn't want to come down. I removed the carburetors again. I completely drained and freed both my carbs of fuel to prevent an explosion. I rigged my vacuum cleaner and pulled air from the manifold side and noted the movement of the piston. On the left carb it was clearly hanging up. After much cleaning, sanding with 1000 and 1500 grit paper, polishing and more cleaning, the piston is acceptable in its movement and smoothness. If your carb pistons move smoothly and in unison (checked by noting the throttle angle vs piston position) then that should make the carbs balance in the mid range. If the main carb body is worn or scored badly, some small grit has gotten into the carb and I am afraid you can save a lot of time and trouble by buying two new carbs. By the way, that is about the price of a small car down payment.
To Bob Borgers comment, I have found that leaving the float bowl gasket in place and adding the new extra O ring (with a bit of lube) allows me to install the original float bowl attachment screw and I torque it to 48 inch pounds. Be sure to soak your paper gasket in fuel for a few minutes. Note that the old manual said 5.5 nm or 45 foot pounds. Obviously 45 foot pounds is going to seriously bend the bottom of the carb bowl and the pins. Luckily, a quick $100 per float bowl will fix that. I have found that it necessary to pay attention to the translation and conversions in the old manual. The new manual has the torque hidden in the verbage so well that I had to post it to my board in the shop. Please pay close attention to your brass float pins and the float bowl. Also make sure your float needle valve and arms are undamaged.
I have been very disappointed in the fit of the new carb parts such as the needle fixation screw with the O ring. It sucks.
I hope your carbs just need a little tender love and care and not replacement. I am at my last straw with my 1/3 side carb, so I may be spending some big bucks.
Regards,
Bud Yerly
[quote] ---
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rehn(at)rockisland.com
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| Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 10:57 am Post subject: 914 rough running |
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Bud
After about 4 tries the oring has an even fit!
Sent from my iPad
On May 17, 2013, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Rehn <rehn(at)rockisland.com (rehn(at)rockisland.com)> wrote:
[quote]Bud
I have the new float chambers and new orings for the retraining nut and now see the oring wants to buldge out a bit on torquing down. I assume the new revised bolt has provisions for the oring that the current bolt does not. You indicated that yours worked ok. I am hoping to not have to purchase the new bolts at about $80 each!
But I am not happy with the oring not fitting perfectly. I see you left the old washers in place as well, I don't see how that will keep the oring from pressing out. I torqued down to only 46 inch. I didn't lube them, thought this would make it worse? Tomorrow I will try some lube but welcome any other suggestions.
Thanks
Regards
Jerry
Sent from my iPad
On May 6, 2013, at 2:41 PM, "Bud Yerly" <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
[quote] (at)page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; } P.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } LI.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } DIV.MsoNormal { MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; FONT-SIZE: 12pt } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.EmailStyle17 { FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: windowtext; mso-style-type: personal-compose } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } <?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Jerry,
Please note that the 914 is a bugger to troubleshoot, and all the advice so far is notable and spot on.
Since the engine has two problems: (1) Rough after pulling it back and (2) TCU Caution light, I will deal with 2 first...
2. The caution light is most probably your throttle pot is not hooked up electrically or the pot was not set to idle with the throttle plate closed so check your connections and pot rotation after doing the carb. Easy mistake, especially since the book doesn't cover it. If not set properly, the TCU gets the wrong throttle position for the Turbo boost and pressure sensors.
1. With you having the same hours I have on my engine, I have noticed that with all the tubing and carb float bowl items operating properly and no fuel leaks, the engine on power reduction runs very rough but idles well and runs well above 4000 RPM. I suspect yours is similar.
It is not uncommon that one of the carb pistons is hanging up. Once the piston goes up on full throttle, one doesn't want to come down. I removed the carburetors again. I completely drained and freed both my carbs of fuel to prevent an explosion. I rigged my vacuum cleaner and pulled air from the manifold side and noted the movement of the piston. On the left carb it was clearly hanging up. After much cleaning, sanding with 1000 and 1500 grit paper, polishing and more cleaning, the piston is acceptable in its movement and smoothness. If your carb pistons move smoothly and in unison (checked by noting the throttle angle vs piston position) then that should make the carbs balance in the mid range. If the main carb body is worn or scored badly, some small grit has gotten into the carb and I am afraid you can save a lot of time and trouble by buying two new carbs. By the way, that is about the price of a small car down payment.
To Bob Borgers comment, I have found that leaving the float bowl gasket in place and adding the new extra O ring (with a bit of lube) allows me to install the original float bowl attachment screw and I torque it to 48 inch pounds. Be sure to soak your paper gasket in fuel for a few minutes. Note that the old manual said 5.5 nm or 45 foot pounds. Obviously 45 foot pounds is going to seriously bend the bottom of the carb bowl and the pins. Luckily, a quick $100 per float bowl will fix that. I have found that it necessary to pay attention to the translation and conversions in the old manual. The new manual has the torque hidden in the verbage so well that I had to post it to my board in the shop. Please pay close attention to your brass float pins and the float bowl. Also make sure your float needle valve and arms are undamaged.
I have been very disappointed in the fit of the new carb parts such as the needle fixation screw with the O ring. It sucks.
I hope your carbs just need a little tender love and care and not replacement. I am at my last straw with my 1/3 side carb, so I may be spending some big bucks.
Regards,
Bud Yerly
[quote] ---
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budyerly(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 9:03 am Post subject: 914 rough running |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Jerry,
The idea of using an O-ring is cheap for Rotax, but without lube, the O-ring is going to squeeze out poorly, and can even roll over themselves under torqueing. The proper seal would be a flat rubber or compression washer or design a bolt with a curved recess for the O-ring. There is nothing in the industry that makes such a bolt for sealing with an O-ring, only way to seal quickly and inexpensively to a flat surface is a flat washer. My understanding is that the new bolt is slightly longer and allows the jet to not bind on the bolt recess as it did on the older 914s. If you use the O-ring without the fiber washer the bolt will impact the jet and bind or cut off fuel supply. Other than that, they are the same.
Just lube the O-ring and torque to spec, then wait a day and torque again, it holds very well.
My plane is down until Rotax can get me another stainless fuel line. After numerous removals of my carbs, the right carb compression fitting no longer seals. $178 bucks and it will be 6 weeks. Lockwood is trying to locate one or a set in the US.
I think I would be happy with a 912S. Push on barb fittings are a pain, but hose is fairly cheap, reliable and easily replaced. As I get older, I like simple. Planes in our shop get the easiest to change fittings and hoses I can find. I could care less if a hose has to be cut off the barb and be replaced, as I make sure I have access to all my hoses. I use quick disconnects from CPC for my fuel filters for rapid and cheap filter changes. Just keep extra O rings.
Regards,
Bud
[quote] ---
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brian.davies(at)clara.co.
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| Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 10:42 am Post subject: 914 rough running |
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Bob,
Try Googling "Dowty washer" an old fashioned idea that works!- and much to my surprise, they make them in metric sizes.
Regards
Brian Davies
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Yerly
Sent: 19 May 2013 18:03
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: 914 rough running
Jerry,
The idea of using an O-ring is cheap for Rotax, but without lube, the O-ring is going to squeeze out poorly, and can even roll over themselves under torqueing. The proper seal would be a flat rubber or compression washer or design a bolt with a curved recess for the O-ring. There is nothing in the industry that makes such a bolt for sealing with an O-ring, only way to seal quickly and inexpensively to a flat surface is a flat washer. My understanding is that the new bolt is slightly longer and allows the jet to not bind on the bolt recess as it did on the older 914s. If you use the O-ring without the fiber washer the bolt will impact the jet and bind or cut off fuel supply. Other than that, they are the same.
Just lube the O-ring and torque to spec, then wait a day and torque again, it holds very well.
My plane is down until Rotax can get me another stainless fuel line. After numerous removals of my carbs, the right carb compression fitting no longer seals. $178 bucks and it will be 6 weeks. Lockwood is trying to locate one or a set in the US.
I think I would be happy with a 912S. Push on barb fittings are a pain, but hose is fairly cheap, reliable and easily replaced. As I get older, I like simple. Planes in our shop get the easiest to change fittings and hoses I can find. I could care less if a hose has to be cut off the barb and be replaced, as I make sure I have access to all my hoses. I use quick disconnects from CPC for my fuel filters for rapid and cheap filter changes. Just keep extra O rings.
Regards,
Bud
[quote]
---
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