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Alan Carter
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.
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 Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 12:59 pm Post subject: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Hello ALL
Well its less than a year ago I had this problem and ended up changing one of the ignition coils and spending around £300 for parts.
All I remember it was a sod of a job and I did not want to do it.
I use to have a rotary mag/start switch but now have independent switching so I can start on L,R,or Both.
I have marked my left system Red, and my Right system Green
but really did not mark enough of this sodding system.
So can any one answer or check my progress.
Starting the reverse way round. just me I find it easier doing things backwards.
Top row of plugs (green), go to (2)ignition coils (green), then to the top module (green), then to my RIGHT Mag switch (green)
This is called ignition system A.
Bottom row of plugs, (Red) yes you've got it (red/port/LEFT)Stb RIGHT is
Green so much for the colour coding.
Go to the (2) ignition coils (Red) then to the modules (Red) then to the
LEFT mag switch (Red)
This is ignition system B.
Now having labelled it all up is it correctly ?? or does B do the top plugs,?
I could pull of all the red top leads and select L and try to start and if it does not start I have it correct, but been told not a good idea as may damage modules.
Alan
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:56 pm Post subject: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Hi Alan,
If it's all wired up and configured as per the installation manual (section 19.4.4 page 116):
Ignition Module/Circuit A controls the top plugs of 1 & 2 and the bottom plugs of 3 & 4
Ignition Module/Circuit B controls the bottom plug of 1 & 2 and the top plugs of 3 & 4
There's probably a good reason for this arrangement, but if someone informed me of said reason, I don't remember it.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On May 20, 2013, at 3:59 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:
Hello ALL
Well its less than a year ago I had this problem and ended up changing one of the ignition coils and spending around £300 for parts.
All I remember it was a sod of a job and I did not want to do it.
I use to have a rotary mag/start switch but now have independent switching so I can start on L,R,or Both.
I have marked my left system Red, and my Right system Green
but really did not mark enough of this sodding system.
So can any one answer or check my progress.
Starting the reverse way round. just me I find it easier doing things backwards.
Top row of plugs (green), go to (2)ignition coils (green), then to the top module (green), then to my RIGHT Mag switch (green)
This is called ignition system A.
Bottom row of plugs, (Red) yes you've got it (red/port/LEFT)Stb RIGHT is
Green so much for the colour coding.
Go to the (2) ignition coils (Red) then to the modules (Red) then to the
LEFT mag switch (Red)
This is ignition system B.
Now having labelled it all up is it correctly ?? or does B do the top plugs,?
I could pull of all the red top leads and select L and try to start and if it does not start I have it correct, but been told not a good idea as may damage modules.
Alan
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rehn(at)rockisland.com
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 5:09 pm Post subject: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Bob
What you show for the ignition modules is correct for the 912, however the 914 is wired differently. The top module fires the top plugs and the bottom module the bottom plugs.
I went through this last year and had to replace the top module, only two of the top plugs failed on mine module so through a process of pulling wires on plugs I was able to find it. I sent the suspect module in for testing and it confirmed what I found. Switching the the two modules to see if the problem moves is also a method to discover the issue.
Alan, hope you are able to isolate your issue, this stuff can drive one nuts!
Jerry
Sent from my iPad
On May 20, 2013, at 4:55 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Alan,
If it's all wired up and configured as per the installation manual (section 19.4.4 page 116):
Ignition Module/Circuit A controls the top plugs of 1 & 2 and the bottom plugs of 3 & 4
Ignition Module/Circuit B controls the bottom plug of 1 & 2 and the top plugs of 3 & 4
There's probably a good reason for this arrangement, but if someone informed me of said reason, I don't remember it.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On May 20, 2013, at 3:59 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:
Hello ALL
Well its less than a year ago I had this problem and ended up changing one of the ignition coils and spending around £300 for parts.
All I remember it was a sod of a job and I did not want to do it.
I use to have a rotary mag/start switch but now have independent switching so I can start on L,R,or Both.
I have marked my left system Red, and my Right system Green
but really did not mark enough of this sodding system.
So can any one answer or check my progress.
Starting the reverse way round. just me I find it easier doing things backwards.
Top row of plugs (green), go to (2)ignition coils (green), then to the top module (green), then to my RIGHT Mag switch (green)
This is called ignition system A.
Bottom row of plugs, (Red) yes you've got it (red/port/LEFT)Stb RIGHT is
Green so much for the colour coding.
Go to the (2) ignition coils (Red) then to the modules (Red) then to the
LEFT mag switch (Red)
This is ignition system B.
Now having labelled it all up is it correctly ?? or does B do the top plugs,?
I could pull of all the red top leads and select L and try to start and if it does not start I have it correct, but been told not a good idea as may damage modules.
Alan
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 5:28 pm Post subject: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Jerry,
I thought it was as you said, but when I went to the 914 installation manual it showed different:
[img]cid:23F981DB-2DC9-460E-BA03-4A0CAE1C6E9D[/img]
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)
On May 20, 2013, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Rehn <rehn(at)rockisland.com (rehn(at)rockisland.com)> wrote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: Jerry Rehn <rehn(at)rockisland.com (rehn(at)rockisland.com)>
Bob
What you show for the ignition modules is correct for the 912, however the 914 is wired differently. The top module fires the top plugs and the bottom module the bottom plugs.
I went through this last year and had to replace the top module, only two of the top plugs failed on mine module so through a process of pulling wires on plugs I was able to find it. I sent the suspect module in for testing and it confirmed what I found. Switching the the two modules to see if the problem moves is also a method to discover the issue.
Alan, hope you are able to isolate your issue, this stuff can drive one nuts!
Jerry
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rehn(at)rockisland.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:53 pm Post subject: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Bob
I think they are out to confuse us!
That diagram is for the 912 , don't know why it's in that manual unless there is a footnote
Somewhere. I do know that my 914 top module, top plugs, bottom module, bottom plugs.
Guess we need a rotax guy to pipe in on this. Maybe can explain whats what!
Jerry
Sent from my iPad
On May 20, 2013, at 6:27 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)> wrote:
[quote]Jerry,
I thought it was as you said, but when I went to the 914 installation manual it showed different:
<914 ignition.jpg>
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)
On May 20, 2013, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Rehn <rehn(at)rockisland.com (rehn(at)rockisland.com)> wrote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: Jerry Rehn <rehn(at)rockisland.com (rehn(at)rockisland.com)>
Bob
What you show for the ignition modules is correct for the 912, however the 914 is wired differently. The top module fires the top plugs and the bottom module the bottom plugs.
I went through this last year and had to replace the top module, only two of the top plugs failed on mine module so through a process of pulling wires on plugs I was able to find it. I sent the suspect module in for testing and it confirmed what I found. Switching the the two modules to see if the problem moves is also a method to discover the issue.
Alan, hope you are able to isolate your issue, this stuff can drive one nuts!
Jerry
[b]
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:40 am Post subject: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Jerry,
I'm with you on that thought. I seem to remember from my Rotax 9xx class that the 912 was arranged like that but the 914 was simple A/top & B/Bottom. But the Rotax 914 current Installation manual shows different.
I've gone to the 912/914 Heavy Maintenance Manual, Ed. 1/ Rev. 0 date May 01/2007 Section 74-00-00 3.1.0) page 19:
[img]cid:D92C2BA8-655E-4DC4-B2AD-CFE586A2EC86[/img]
It shows the 914 as A/Top B/Bottom, which I believe is correct from what I remember from my school.
It looks like the 2008 revision of the Installation Manual may be incorrect.
I'll stop by the hanger some time today and dig up my copy of the original installation manual that came with my 914 and see what it says.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)
On May 20, 2013, at 9:52 PM, Jerry Rehn <rehn(at)rockisland.com (rehn(at)rockisland.com)> wrote:
Bob
I think they are out to confuse us!
That diagram is for the 912 , don't know why it's in that manual unless there is a footnote
Somewhere. I do know that my 914 top module, top plugs, bottom module, bottom plugs.
Guess we need a rotax guy to pipe in on this. Maybe can explain whats what!
Jerry
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Alan Carter
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.
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| Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Hello Chaps.
I don't think Rotax has any bloody standardisation in fact from a logical design point of view I could do better.
What I wanted to know was ,when the say "L" mag switch is selected ON, what's components are live and working. So the last time I replaced a coil I colour coded all from the plugs to the mag switch.
"R" was green and the top plugs,
"L" was red and the bottom plugs.
Simple follow the red or the green all the way.
So I have trouble down the green route ie to the top plugs, so have been looking in this area.
But today I found out I colour coded it the wrong way round,
My green route actually goes to the bottom plugs and not the top plugs, so my trouble is not where I thought it was. (see code above)
My Proof is:Running on BOTH >smooth
Running on "L" smooth.
Running on "R" rough, then with one lead off the bottom row, Running very rough. So "R" =Bottom Row of plugs.
It really depends on how the builder grounded the Mags on the Mag Switch
WHAT IS THE STANDARD WAY ????????
This is my 914.
"R" (coded Red route now) > Bottom Module >Bottom Coils >Bottom Plugs(red)
"L" (coded Green route now)>Top Module > Top Coils >Top Plugs (green).
"BOTH" Top and Bottom together.
So ignition "A"= (Top plugs) which is Mag Switch position (L) down the green route.
Ignition "B" = (Bottom plugs) which is Mag Switch position (R) down the red route.
Simple YES.
Alan
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Alan Carter
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.
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| Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Hi,
Just one more point, look at the mag diagram.
4 coils, all have a (moulding shape) on the rear back side,
Three of these (moulding shapes) face upwards,
On front lower right coil, this (shape) faces downwards,
opposite way round to all the others, so be careful.
If I had designed it there would all be facing or pointing is the same direction. I am sure that in the electronics design this could have been achieved,
Alan
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Alan Carter
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Hi All.
914. Has 4 Trigger Coils, on a horizontal mounting with 2 forward and 2 Aft.
The Top Module connects to the :
The 2 forward coils which are.
Trigger coil A1/2 serves the Top sparking plugs of cylinders 1 and 2
Trigger coil A3/4 serves the Top sparking plugs of cylinders 3 and 4
These are active when the Left Mag Switch is selected ON. engine running on top plugs.
I have colour coded the entire system from the LEFT MAG SWITCH. (L)ime/yellow.
The bottom module connects to the:
The 2 Aft coils are which are.
Trigger coil B1/2 serves the bottom sparking plugs of cylinders 1 and 2
Trigger coil B3/4 serves the bottom sparking plugs of cylinders 3 and 4
I have colour coded the entire system from the RIGHT MAG SWITCH. Red
“This is my 914”, Is they a standard mag switch wiring for this engine ?????.
Should L be the top plugs.?ie ignition system A. ??
now all I have got to do is fix the bloody thing
Alan
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:54 pm Post subject: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Alan,
I don't think there's a standard ignition switch arrangement.
I use two SPST switches. One for each ignition. Labeled them "Ignition" positioned over the two switches and A & B under each switch.
FWIW, I also use those colored switch lever covers on my switches. Red on Master, Blue on Ignition, Yellow on Starter, Green on fuel pump, White on lights.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On May 22, 2013, at 3:25 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:
Hi All.
914. Has 4 Trigger Coils, on a horizontal mounting with 2 forward and 2 Aft.
The Top Module connects to the :
The 2 forward coils which are.
Trigger coil A1/2 serves the Top sparking plugs of cylinders 1 and 2
Trigger coil A3/4 serves the Top sparking plugs of cylinders 3 and 4
These are active when the Left Mag Switch is selected ON. engine running on top plugs.
I have colour coded the entire system from the LEFT MAG SWITCH. (L)ime/yellow.
The bottom module connects to the:
The 2 Aft coils are which are.
Trigger coil B1/2 serves the bottom sparking plugs of cylinders 1 and 2
Trigger coil B3/4 serves the bottom sparking plugs of cylinders 3 and 4
I have colour coded the entire system from the RIGHT MAG SWITCH. Red
“This is my 914”, Is they a standard mag switch wiring for this engine ?????.
Should L be the top plugs.?ie ignition system A. ??
now all I have got to do is fix the bloody thing
Alan
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Alan Carter
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Hi Bob.
My left mag switch fires the top plugs.
This is the 914,
On the 912 guess it does not matter as the left switch will fire a top and bottom pair.
I like the 914 arrangement as its more logical, ie
Left is the top and R is the bottom also you can eliminate it to either a problem in the top or bottom.
But i would like to know if other 914 the left mag switch fires the top plugs.
Alan
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Alan Carter
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Bob.
How much do the coil's cost in the States,
Alan
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rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 2:30 pm Post subject: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Alan,
Lockwood has the coils (part number 966 218) in stock for $299.46
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On May 22, 2013, at 5:06 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:
Bob.
How much do the coil's cost in the States,
Alan
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Alan Carter
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Hi Bob.
Have you heard the dread full news of what happened over here.
300$ is 200£
so it about £100 cheaper.
Alan
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:23 am Post subject: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Alan,
Yes, it's all over the news here. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/05/23/brave-woman-tried-to-reason-with-london-attackers/
Really ugly thing to happen.
So, your cost in is about the same as our cost in $? That sucks.
Do you think it would be worthwhile for someone to purchase it over here and then send it on? I'm sure you'd have to pay import duties, etc.
Or, if you know someone coming over who could hand-carry it back?
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On May 23, 2013, at 12:47 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:
Hi Bob.
Have you heard the dread full news of what happened over here.
300$ is 200£
so it about £100 cheaper.
Alan
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Alan Carter
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Hi Bob.
Wrote to my MP about three months ago, he did not bother to answer,
They live on a different plant, total wast of time.
I do know a pilot that fly,s to the states, but not the thing you find around the airport.
I will try a second hand suppler first, see how i get on.
Its the right mag, so know from my posts it one of the 2 front coils,
Last time i swapped top to bottom, sod of a job, rotax manual , split and remove inlet manifold to get at the nuts and bolts, crazy design, did that.
Then discovered little fingers and ball ended allen keys and a lot of cursing.
This time buy new mag , tape it in, connect supply and HT leads, start and test. its one of the two.
Any comments you can think of,
Regards.
Alan
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 12:20 pm Post subject: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Alan,
If your pilot bud comes through the DFW area and you have sufficient notice, time for me to order and receive one, I can meet him with the module.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On May 23, 2013, at 3:04 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:
Hi Bob.
Wrote to my MP about three months ago, he did not bother to answer,
They live on a different plant, total wast of time.
I do know a pilot that fly,s to the states, but not the thing you find around the airport.
I will try a second hand suppler first, see how i get on.
Its the right mag, so know from my posts it one of the 2 front coils,
Last time i swapped top to bottom, sod of a job, rotax manual , split and remove inlet manifold to get at the nuts and bolts, crazy design, did that.
Then discovered little fingers and ball ended allen keys and a lot of cursing.
This time buy new mag , tape it in, connect supply and HT leads, start and test. its one of the two.
Any comments you can think of,
Regards.
Alan
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Alan Carter
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Thanks Bob,
Dallas, i don.t know, that,s very kind of you, i will ask him ,
It would be a BA 747 , but i will give the second hand route a go first.
Alan.
PS, My new Permit came through today, now have the clamps on and the cir clips and wires fitted, will be writing about it on the Europa Form when i get time.
did i send you photo,s ?
Alan
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rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:42 pm Post subject: Right mag drop and rought running on 914 |
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Alan,
Good luck. I hope you can work something out. If not, the alternate is always there.
No, you have not sent photos. Please do.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On May 23, 2013, at 5:29 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:
Thanks Bob,
Dallas, i don.t know, that,s very kind of you, i will ask him ,
It would be a BA 747 , but i will give the second hand route a go first.
Alan.
PS, My new Permit came through today, now have the clamps on and the cir clips and wires fitted, will be writing about it on the Europa Form when i get time.
did i send you photo,s ?
Alan
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