Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - More 582 Temperature Questions

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

More 582 Temperature Questions
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:51 pm Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

All,

         I ran around the airport again yesterday. The running water temp 

got up to 184, but ran on up to 214 when I shut it down. I've been told 

that I'm frying my rotary valve seal, but if I'm to keep the heat soak temp 

below 175, I'm going to have to run much cooler than when I shut it down. 

Am I worrying too much? Or should I tear into this thing now?

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:59 pm Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

Hi Guy,

184 F not out of line  but  214 F certainly is .

What is OAT when you get these temps and are you just taxing around ?

If engine is new, it eill run a little hotter for first 10 to 20 hours but 

214 F is not good news if that continues.

What temps do you get in air ?

What temps did you get when you broke in the engine ?   I assume you ran a 

hose on rad while doing this ?

Breaking on new engine should take you about 1 hour 20 mins or so.

Dave

---

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

At 06:59 PM 6/11/2006, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  184 F not out of line  but  214 F certainly is .


	


The 214 was heat soak after I shut it down. Still bad?



 	  Quote: 	
		  What is OAT when you get these temps and are you just taxing around ?


	


I think it was in the low 80's.



 	  Quote: 	
		  If engine is new, it eill run a little hotter for first 10 to 20 hours but 

214 F is not good news if that continues.

What temps do you get in air ?


	


I haven't been in the air yet. I'm trying to decide whether I should 

completely rework the cooling system. It seems odd. One of the Kitfox's at 

our field has a 912 with EXACTLY the same radiator. He has no problems. I 

wonder if my system's working well.



 	  Quote: 	
		  What temps did you get when you broke in the engine ?   I assume you ran a 

hose on rad while doing this ?


	


I didn't break it in, but temps were held below 175 for the entire time.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

Mike C

Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Ontario, Canada

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

Guy,

Do you have the short exhaust stack that blows on to the rad? The heat

from the exhaust would heat the coolant in the rad. I have an extension

on my exhaust pipe that directs the gasses below the rad.



Mike Crutchlow

KF-2, 582



--

_________________
Mike C
Kitfox II
582 Bluehead
Woodcomp 3 blade, wood/carbon fibre

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

At 02:45 PM 6/12/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Guy,

Do you have the short exhaust stack that blows on to the rad?


	


Sort of. I have a cowl over the radiator that might deflect the exhaust 

away, but I'm guessing that the circularity of the slipstream probably runs 

at least some of it in. Did you make your extension from standard pipe?

Guy

noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

I've been "reading the mail" on this one.   I'm going to assume that you

have a thermostat in the engine.  That leaves a few things that can be

wrong.  



Radiator: 

may not be in a good place for cooling; may be blocked (partially) may have

an airlock of some kind or may be too small..  



Sensor Probe:

This may be giving you false readings Check it's calibration in a container

of boiling water with a candy thermometer.  Remember water boils at lower

temps in higher altitudes.



Hoses:

Check to be sure all the hoses are intact and don't have any floppy liners

loose inside them.



Best of luck 

Noel



[quote] --

Mike C

Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Ontario, Canada

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

The pipe was on when I bought the plane. It is an extension of the

regular pipe. It's the same type of pipe that is flared and bolted on.

It keeps the exhaust heat away from the rad and the landing gear (leg

and bungee) stays clean. See the attached photo.



Mike



--

KFII.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

95.56 KB

Viewed:

400 Time(s)

_________________
Mike C
Kitfox II
582 Bluehead
Woodcomp 3 blade, wood/carbon fibre

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

At 07:12 PM 6/12/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  It keeps the exhaust heat away from the rad and the landing gear (leg

and bungee) stays clean. See the attached photo.


	


WOW! Now that's a pipe, baby! I wonder if it modifies the horsepower curve?

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:04 am Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

Check the thermostat. If you have an older 582 (pre mod 99)  It is my 

understanding that there must be a hole of some sort in the thermostat to 

allow a bypass circulation. I think this is done via a passage on the newer 

582's.

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:20 am Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

Guy,

    If you suspect the exhaust pipe, go to an auto parts place and purchase 

a cheap extension about 6" long.  Temporarily clamp it on and then go taxi. 

I had to add an extension to mine after the cowl/radiator mods.  I used a 

similar extension but had it welded on as the final mod.  I don't think 

adding a short extension on the radiator outlet changes power.  Of course, 

if you ran it all the way to the tailwheel that might make a difference.



Don Smythe

---

noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:28 am Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

Just make a short extruder tube long enough to by pass the rad.  The cold

air from the extruder will quiet your exhaust and keep the belly of your

plane clean.  Chrome it and when people ask you what it is tell them it's

the smoke system;^)



Noel



[quote] --

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

Guy,  could you take a picute of your setup ? Now that attachments can be 

added to post it would make it more clear.   Did you say you have a cowl 

over the radiator or is it  original?



And how did you maintain 175 F on breakin but not now ?  I assume with a 

hose?

New engines will generally run hotter for the first 10 to 20 hours as well.

Dave

---

Mike C

Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Ontario, Canada

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

I've never flown it without the extension so I can't judge the power

difference. It does NOT lack for power with the pipe.



Mike



--

_________________
Mike C
Kitfox II
582 Bluehead
Woodcomp 3 blade, wood/carbon fibre

kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:56 am Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

That pipe extension might also be a contributing factor for the heat problem?

  

  ns pag

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:19 pm Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

At 05:49 AM 6/13/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Guy,  could you take a picute of your setup ? Now that attachments can be

added to post it would make it more clear.   Did you say you have a cowl

over the radiator or is it  original?


	


I think it's the Speedster cowl. I've added a back plate which forces all 

the incoming air through the radiator. I'll dig up a picture.

 	  Quote: 	
		  And how did you maintain 175 F on breakin but not now ?  I assume with a

hose?

New engines will generally run hotter for the first 10 to 20 hours as well.


	


I don't know. Bob Robertson did the break in. I'm going to try the hose 

because I have to do more full throttle static runs. I'm going to put the 

mains on stands and run it for a while with the tanks near empty to make 

sure I've got good fuel flow. I'm then going to check flows with the tanks 

full. I'll probably put at least an hour on it static so I'll want the 

capability to keep it cool.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

Exhaust_1.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

47.93 KB

Viewed:

407 Time(s)

Exhaust_2.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

48.74 KB

Viewed:

399 Time(s)

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:36 pm Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

Guy nice pics,



It might be me, but that air scoop  looks like it is restricted by the cowl 

exit.

That rad cowl i doubt will help you on cooling on the ground.  In the air I 

am not sure.



Bob Robertson is a good guy and I would expect he had no cooling issues but 

most likely a larger cooling source than a OEM  Skystar rad.  My rad is 

about 4 inch x  20 inch by 2 inch thick with 582.



Fuel flow can be checked static as well. You will need min.  6 to 7 gals 

free flow per hour from gravity alone.

You should get increased fuel flow from Pitot tubes on caps if they sealed 

properly.

Sharp looking Kitfox and I hope the temperature does not run as red as the 

paint job 



I see that  it is  99.9 % done  - does that mean a test flight any day now ?



Dave



---

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:58 am Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

Guy,

    Nice pics.  You can do a fuel flow check easily by taking loose the fuel 

line at the input of the fuel pump and letting it gravity drain in a bucket. 

You want 150% fuel flow based on the max fuel usage of the engine or say, 

150% X 7 gallons = 10.5 gallons per hour.  Just drain a quart and do the 

rest by math.  BTW, keep the collection bucket at the same height as the 

fuel pump.  If you extend the line down to the hanger floor it will give you 

incorrect fuel flow readings.

    I noticed something in your picture that I think it wrong.  Your fuel 

pump is mounted on it's side and should be mounted flat with the pulse line 

on the bottom.  I've read this in several articles and not sure how 

important it is.  I've seen a batch of ultralights with the pump mounted on 

it side.

    Just curious as to why you need to do another hours worth of high speed 

engine running???  BTW, I'll bet your heating problem will go away once in 

the air. Or at least be OK during cruise.  I always had a problem during 

climb on hot days.  I think my modifications pretty well fixed everything. 

Yesterday I flew with 167 degrees on an extended climb and temps went to 165 

at cruise (OAT was 80).  The input / output temps of the radiator were 10 

degrees different.



Don Smythe

---

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:57 am Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

At 10:34 PM 6/13/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Guy nice pics,



It might be me, but that air scoop  looks like it is restricted by the cowl

exit.


	


Well the ONLY exit is the radiator, so in a sense it IS restricted. I 

thought that might be a good thing, increasing the static pressure in front 

of the radiator. I suppose it's possible that the radiator cools around the 

edges as much as across the core...



 	  Quote: 	
		  Bob Robertson is a good guy and I would expect he had no cooling issues but

most likely a larger cooling source than a OEM  Skystar rad.  My rad is

about 4 inch x  20 inch by 2 inch thick with 582.


	


That sounds about like mine, though I doubt mine is two inches thick, more 

like 1.5. It's the stock Skystar unit. I like Murle's aluminum radiator a 

lot. I wonder if it's interchangeable with the Skystar unit?



 	  Quote: 	
		  Fuel flow can be checked static as well. You will need min.  6 to 7 gals

free flow per hour from gravity alone.


	


I had 12 gph static sitting on the wheels with 1 gallon in the tanks. I 

plan to put the mains on 10"  ramps and check it again.



 	  Quote: 	
		  You should get increased fuel flow from Pitot tubes on caps if they sealed

properly.


	


Yeah, I heard about the sealing problem. It's a good reminder to make sure 

they seal well.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Sharp looking Kitfox and I hope the temperature does not run as red as the

paint job 


	


Thanks.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I see that  it is  99.9 % done  - does that mean a test flight any day now ?


	


My DAR will be in town the 17th. I'm hoping to have it inspected within the 

week. I think I'll then trailer it up to Corona and have Dave Stevenson 

check it out and fly it. Bottom line - less than two weeks.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:03 am Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

At 04:57 AM 6/14/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Guy,

    Nice pics.


	


Thanks.



 	  Quote: 	
		  You can do a fuel flow check easily by taking loose the fuel

line at the input of the fuel pump and letting it gravity drain in a bucket.

You want 150% fuel flow based on the max fuel usage of the engine or say,

150% X 7 gallons = 10.5 gallons per hour.


	


I did that and got about 12 gph with 1 gallon in the tanks. I'm going to do 

it again with the mains on ramps.



 	  Quote: 	
		      I noticed something in your picture that I think it wrong.  Your fuel

pump is mounted on it's side and should be mounted flat with the pulse line

on the bottom.  I've read this in several articles and not sure how

important it is.  I've seen a batch of ultralights with the pump mounted on

it side.


	


Yes. I've heard about this. The micro drain for the pulse pump is in the 

input elbow which enters the center of the back side of the pump. Thus, 

with the pump sideways the pressure side of the pump will eventually fill 

with fluid to half way, possibly reducing the efficiency of the pump. (I 

haven't decided if it will, as theoretically the pump would work even full 

of fluid, but with some reduction in efficiency caused by the increased 

fluid friction of the liquid.) However, the hole for the drain is so small, 

(so as to minimize the pulse loss,) that I have serious doubts it would 

drain fuel if horizontal! (Small hole syndrome.  Of course, once the 

pulsing started it would probably spit out any fuel in that cavity.) 

Unfortunately my pump was mounted when I got the aircraft; It's what 

Skystar recommended; no SB or SL's come out about it; and many others have 

mounted them the same way. I think I will replace the input elbow with one 

with no hole, then drill a similar sized hole in the bottom of the pulse 

cavity - same effect, vertical mount.



 	  Quote: 	
		      Just curious as to why you need to do another hours worth of high speed

engine running???


	


I want to check the extreme climb, empty tank flow and the extreme descent, 

empty tank time to exhaustion.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:19 am Post subject: More 582 Temperature Questions

"Well the ONLY exit is the radiator, so in a sense it IS restricted. I 

thought that might be a good thing, increasing the static pressure in front 

of the radiator. I suppose it's possible that the radiator cools around the 

edges as much as across the core..."

Guy, one of the rules of thumb is that adequate cooling requires 3 times the exit area in relation to the inlet area.  There are always exceptions, but it is possible that restricting the flow of air through the engine compartment increases the heat-soak condition previously described.  Note that in Don's previous post that he was getting 10* temp drop through the radiator.  That number is consistant with other reports seen in the past.  I believe that the 582 is expected to operate in a free-air environment.

 John Kerr

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> 

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan 

 At 10:34 PM 6/13/2006, you wrote: 

 >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" 

 > 

 >Guy nice pics, 

 > 

 >It might be me, but that air scoop looks like it is restricted by the cowl 

 >exit. 

 Well the ONLY exit is the radiator, so in a sense it IS restricted. I 

 thought that might be a good thing, increasing the static pressure in front 

 of the radiator. I suppose it's possible that the radiator cools around the 

 edges as much as across the core... 

 >Bob Robertson is a good guy and I would expect he had no cooling issues but 

 >most likely a larger c  ooling  source than a OEM Skystar rad. My rad is 

 >about 4 inch x 20 inch by 2 inch thick with 582. 

 That sounds about like mine, though I doubt mine is two inches thick, more 

 like 1.5. It's the stock Skystar unit. I like Murle's aluminum radiator a 

 lot. I wonder if it's interchangeable with the Skystar unit? 

 >Fuel flow can be checked static as well. You will need min. 6 to 7 gals 

 >free flow per hour from gravity alone. 

 I had 12 gph static sitting on the wheels with 1 gallon in the tanks. I 

 plan to put the mains on 10" ramps and check it again. 

 >You should get increased fuel flow from Pitot tubes on caps if they sealed 

 >properly. 

 Yeah, I heard about the sealing problem. It's a good reminder to make sure 

 they seal well. 

 >Sharp looking Kitfox and I hope the temperature does not run as red as the 

&  gt; &g  >>

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum