Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Air system 'stuff'
Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

crobin(at)skyvantage.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:17 pm Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

I need an air system relief valve for my M-14P powered Wilga...  Mine is leaky and I can't find seals or a replacement anywhere.  

Any ideas?  If someone has a lead on one, please let me know!  (standard dump at 45'ish ATM)

  



Cory 801-599-7715



  [quote][b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:33 pm Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

Check with Doug Sap. The CJ stuff is pretty much interchangeable. George Coy and Jill Hayes maybe able to help also. 

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Jun 4, 2013, at 11:15 PM, Cory Robin <crobin(at)skyvantage.com (crobin(at)skyvantage.com)> wrote:

[quote]I need an air system relief valve for my M-14P powered Wilga...  Mine is leaky and I can't find seals or a replacement anywhere.  

Any ideas?  If someone has a lead on one, please let me know!  (standard dump at 45'ish ATM)

  



Cory 801-599-7715



   	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:33 pm Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

Cory, contact Doug Sapp at (509) 826-4610.



Blitz Fox415-307-2405

On Jun 4, 2013, at 9:15 PM, Cory Robin <crobin(at)skyvantage.com (crobin(at)skyvantage.com)> wrote:

[quote]I need an air system relief valve for my M-14P powered Wilga...  Mine is leaky and I can't find seals or a replacement anywhere.  

Any ideas?  If someone has a lead on one, please let me know!  (standard dump at 45'ish ATM)

  



Cory 801-599-7715



   	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

crobin(at)skyvantage.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:02 pm Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

Thank you all.  I contacted Doug and have a valve on it's way.



  [quote][b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:36 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

Just FYI. 



The CJ6 valve ASSEMBLY that Doug has, is not always a direct replacement for every YAK pressure relief valve.  Slightly different fittings in some cases. 



But the answer is obvious.  If you take apart HIS valve and remove the sealing piston, spring and screw on pressure adjusting top piece, and put them on yours, they fit perfectly and will work perfectly. 



You will then have to reset your maximum pressure.  Be careful.  



Mark Bitterlich

--

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:20 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

Unfortunately, the CJ6's pressure relief valve or pop off valve's 

internal components are not the same as the one on the 52.   The pistons 

are not interchangeable.



If you need a new piston for a Yak 52 pop off valve, I believe Jill has 

them and so does Cliff Coy at Border Air.  The spring for the 52's pop 

off valve may be a little harder to find.  But Jill or Cliff can help 

with that.



We have converted a few Yak 52's to the CJ6 pop off valve assembly with 

the two Chinese check valves because the Chinese check valves are 

significantly less expensive and Doug typically has them or overhaul 

kits in stock.  (Thank you Doug).   The Russian check valves are VERY 

expensive, IF you can find them.



Dennis



A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1



On 6/6/2013 11:34 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD wrote:

[quote] 



 Just FYI.



 The CJ6 valve ASSEMBLY that Doug has, is not always a direct replacement for every YAK pressure relief valve.  Slightly different fittings in some cases.



 But the answer is obvious.  If you take apart HIS valve and remove the sealing piston, spring and screw on pressure adjusting top piece, and put them on yours, they fit perfectly and will work perfectly.



 You will then have to reset your maximum pressure.  Be careful.



 Mark Bitterlich

 --

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:46 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

The Yak 50 pop off valve internal components may be interchangeable with 

the Chinese components. But definitely not the Yak 52.

Dennis



A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1



On 6/6/2013 1:18 PM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:

[quote] 

 <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>



 Unfortunately, the CJ6's pressure relief valve or pop off valve's 

 internal components are not the same as the one on the 52.   The 

 pistons are not interchangeable.



 If you need a new piston for a Yak 52 pop off valve, I believe Jill 

 has them and so does Cliff Coy at Border Air.  The spring for the 52's 

 pop off valve may be a little harder to find.  But Jill or Cliff can 

 help with that.



 We have converted a few Yak 52's to the CJ6 pop off valve assembly 

 with the two Chinese check valves because the Chinese check valves are 

 significantly less expensive and Doug typically has them or overhaul 

 kits in stock.  (Thank you Doug).   The Russian check valves are VERY 

 expensive, IF you can find them.



 Dennis



 A. Dennis Savarese

 334-285-6263

 334-546-8182 (mobile)

 www.yak-52.com

 Skype - Yakguy1



 On 6/6/2013 11:34 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD wrote:

> 

> <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

>

> Just FYI.

>

> The CJ6 valve ASSEMBLY that Doug has, is not always a direct 

> replacement for every YAK pressure relief valve.  Slightly different 

> fittings in some cases.

>

> But the answer is obvious.  If you take apart HIS valve and remove 

> the sealing piston, spring and screw on pressure adjusting top piece, 

> and put them on yours, they fit perfectly and will work perfectly.

>

> You will then have to reset your maximum pressure.  Be careful.

>

> Mark Bitterlich

> --

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:17 pm Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

Speaking for the 78 model 50, the internal components are not the same YAK vs the CJ. It is easy to swap the entire check valve assembly out though. That is what I did on the 50. Solved the leaking check valve at the pop off problem in about 4 hours. Just wish I had caught the airline leak at the manifold for the acutators before the gear collapsed. Would have saved a lot of headaches!

Doc



--

crobin(at)skyvantage.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:45 pm Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

Well, I got the stuff from Doug and they indeed don't fit, but I'll try your idea to take it apart and see if guts fit...  I didn't think of that.



Wondering about the world of Pitts 12 guys..  There has to be an air relief valve in the USA that'll start pissing at 45-50 bar right?  

  



Or are you guys all married to the eastern stuff (which is good stuff, but my Wilga parts are drying up!)

Cory.

  [quote][b]

taylor527(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:30 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

Cory,   

The people at Js broken aero have a wrecked Wilga , try them  

Pete  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cory Robin

 Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 10:43 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Air system 'stuff'  

  

     

Well, I got the stuff from Doug and they indeed don't fit, but I'll try your idea to take it apart and see if guts fit...  I didn't think of that.    

   

    

Wondering about the world of Pitts 12 guys..  There has to be an air relief valve in the USA that'll start pissing at 45-50 bar right?    

    

   

    

Or are you guys all married to the eastern stuff (which is good stuff, but my Wilga parts are drying up!)  

    

     

Cory.  

  

  

   	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
5 	  Quote: 	
		   	
6 	  Quote: 	
		   	
7 	  Quote: 	
		   	
8 	  Quote: 	
		   	
9

       [quote][b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:54 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

Cory,

On my next YAK 50 rebuild I'm going to rely heavily on Aircraft Spruces' metric to AN conversion fittings to redo my air lines with braided Aeroquip hoses. Enough of this being bitten by cracks in these none flexible aluminum hoses with 37 degree or is it 42 degree flairs!?

As for USA parts, try Parker. They make and supply the trucking industry.

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Jun 7, 2013, at 12:43 AM, Cory Robin <crobin(at)skyvantage.com (crobin(at)skyvantage.com)> wrote:

[quote]Well, I got the stuff from Doug and they indeed don't fit, but I'll try your idea to take it apart and see if guts fit...  I didn't think of that.



Wondering about the world of Pitts 12 guys..  There has to be an air relief valve in the USA that'll start pissing at 45-50 bar right?  

  



Or are you guys all married to the eastern stuff (which is good stuff, but my Wilga parts are drying up!)

Cory.

   	  Quote: 	
		  



===================================

//www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

===================================

cs.com

===================================

matronics.com/contribution

===================================



	


[b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:09 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

I have taken the spring and piston out of the CJ6 pressure relief valves

sold to me by Doug Sapp and have installed them into my original YAK-50

pressure relief assembly twice.  



My aircraft is currently flying in that condition.  With a CJ6 piston

and spring installed.  



There may be different CJ6 parts out there that I am unfamiliar with, or

there may be different YAK parts that I am unfamiliar with.  



However, on my personally owned YAK-50, and the second YAK-50 I have for

parts, the parts that Doug sold me worked perfectly.  



Not sure what you ran into where it did not work, and I trust you when

you say it did not work for you..... but it worked for me because I am

not talking theory here, I've done it on my YAK-50, I've also done it on

a Sukhoi 26 and also on a Sukhoi 31.    



Mark

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:12 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

The YAK-52 uses different air components than the YAK-50.  The one way

check valves are different than what is used on my 50.  



Amazingly enough, there were also two types of one way check valves used

on the 50.  I've got both types in my hangar.  



The Coy's can rebuild those one way check valves by the way, and they

did mine... which worked perfectly every since. 



Yes, I should have been more definitive... sorry Dennis.  I was speaking

of a YAK-50.  



Mark

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:17 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

I own a 74 Yak-50 and an 84 Yak-50.  



The one way check valves between both aircraft are much different.  The two pressure relief valves are identical on both models.  



Let me explain the process with a tad more detail as you might have missed it.   



In my 50 Doc, I could not just replace the piston.  I had to replace the piston, the spring AND THE TOP SCREW ON PIECE.   If you just try to replace the piston, it will not work.  



The only part of the pressure relief part that is identical is the seat, and the thread.  The top parts all have to be replaced.  



Did you try that? 



Mark

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:32 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

If I was not clear before, I apologize.  First, I am not speaking for YAK-52's.... Dennis tells me they are different than the 50 and I believe him.  He is the 52 GURU~!  



2nd, I took the screw on top piece, the piston, the spring, off the CJ6 pressure relief valve, and screwed them ALL down onto the original YAK-50 pressure relief assembly that remained installed in the aircraft.  



Cory, you are dead on about can you replace this thing with a western made product.  Yes, and there are some very good ones.  You need to adapt the metric line fittings to AN, or just cut the Russian pipe, put an AN nut on it, and reflare it.  Can be done. 



The adjustable pressure relief valve I saw cost $600+ new.  So I stayed with what came with the airplane. 



Mark

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:02 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

Doc, you said that you wished you had caught the airline leak at the manifold for the actuators before the landing gear collapsed.  



I'm kind of confused by that statement, and it brings up an important point.  The YAK-52 (I say again YAK-52!!) uses an internal ball lock assembly internal to the actuators.  If those are in bad shape and you lose pressure to the landing gear ..... the gear can collapse.  I've seen it happen three times on one YA-52 before the owner finally got the actuators repaired.  



However, the YAK-50 (I say again YAK-50) does not work like that.  It uses an EXTERNAL LOCKING device that is purely mechanical in nature.  Once the landing gear comes down, you can remove all pressure from the pneumatic system and land safely with no possibility of the gear collapsing.  In fact that is a good safety procedure for every YAK-50 owner to know, which is why I am writing this.  If you can get the gear down on a YAK-50 that has an internal air leak, you can then place the gear handle back into the MIDDLE position, which isolates pneumatic pressure from the landing gear system, and allows the engine air compressor to pump back up to 50 atmos on BOTH the main and emergency bottle.  This then allows you to land with full pressure available to the BRAKES!  I flew a YAK-50 almost all the way from the east coast to Ramona California that way (for Vladimir Yastremski).  It had a bad air leak when the gear went down, enough so that I would have had to land with no brakes available.  This method is not documented, but trust me when I say I am 100% sure of how this works.  It could be considered an Emergency Procedure.  



Moving on, I would assume that during every Conditional Inspection on your aircraft, you swing the gear.  Part of that inspection is to make sure that the landing gear lights do not show down and locked BEFORE the landing gear is actually DOWN AND LOCKED!  I.E.  You don't want to have the gear lights indicate it is down, when it is actually NOT down.  This requires the landing gear to be lowered very slowly with a steady hand on the master air valve, while one person watches the lights and another person watches the external locking block snap into place.  



So assuming that your landing gear indication switches were properly adjusted, then any kind of airline leak ANYWHERE in the system would not cause the gear to collapse once it indicated down and locked.  



What this means is that if your gear collapsed upon or after landing, then they were never down and locked to begin with and you probably missed the fact that both green lights were not lit, or you heard what you thought were normal sounds and assumed the gear was down.  It's an easy mistake to make, and I personally believe I made the same mistake myself!  



An air leak can cause enough pressure loss to keep the gear from coming down and locking... but if that were the case, there would be no air left in the main and emergency bottle, because you would have blown the gear with the emergency valve.  



But if the gear was down and locked and indicating same ... you only have two possibilities. 



1.  The landing gear indicators were totally mis-rigged *AND* you had an air leak preventing total gear extension, in which case you should shoot your A&P mechanic for not inspecting the landing gear switches properly. 



2.  The landing gear was never down and locked to begin with.  



Once the gear is down and locked, it does not need air to keep it down and locked.  Just the way it works Doc, so you may need to rethink what happened.  



Mark



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:09 pm Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

The flares are the same as American angles.  



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:57 pm Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

Don't know Mark. To use a famous quote, " It just went blew!" Is the 74 the same as the 78 as the 80 as the 85? No. The gear is beefier on the 85 than the 78 for one. My mechanical lock spring is not as hefty as the 85's either. The fuel system is different also. I know that from crawling around on the 85 sitting in the back of my hanger. The 85 has better lateral stability than than the 78 slick wing that I have...had. 

The 78's actuator as you say does not have the ball check valve. It uses air to push and pull applied at either end of the actuator. As I said my spring is smaller than that on the 85. And all I can tell for a heart beat there I saw a wind screen full of green as the nose went down. One blade is shorter than the other as well as it sheered off just inside the cowl diameter and I have dirt up in my hub. 

The CJ nose strut actuator will work on the 78 is another difference. The CJ actuator is the same as the YAK 18A's. I don't know if they will work on the later model 50's. 

One of my air lines has 04 on it and the other has 02 on it. The lines to the actuators have faded enough that I can not read them. So again this was my error in not replacing them sooner. 

I can tell you all incidents or accidents start as a series of small events that lead up the big event. Just need to break the cycle to prevent the incident. I did not catch the series. If I had listened to that little internal voice that said taxi into your ramp and shut down as I taxied by after fueling up we would not be having this conversation. If I had not been pressed to beat a TFR, we would not be having this conversation. If I had not checked the main air valve  before TO,  we would not be having this conversation. If weather had not become a factor in route going from marginal VFR to  IFR resulting in my turning back, we would not be having this conversation. But then again had I landed on concrete instead of grass I may not have been here any longer and we would not be having this conversation for sure. If I had squeezed the brake handle and release it before turning the air on to start after priming we would not be having this conversation. 

Hide sight is always 20/20 as are arm chair quarterbacks.

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Jun 7, 2013, at 2:00 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Doc, you said that you wished you had caught the airline leak at the manifold for the actuators before the landing gear collapsed.  

 

 I'm kind of confused by that statement, and it brings up an important point.  The YAK-52 (I say again YAK-52!!) uses an internal ball lock assembly internal to the actuators.  If those are in bad shape and you lose pressure to the landing gear ..... the gear can collapse.  I've seen it happen three times on one YA-52 before the owner finally got the actuators repaired.  

 

 However, the YAK-50 (I say again YAK-50) does not work like that.  It uses an EXTERNAL LOCKING device that is purely mechanical in nature.  Once the landing gear comes down, you can remove all pressure from the pneumatic system and land safely with no possibility of the gear collapsing.  In fact that is a good safety procedure for every YAK-50 owner to know, which is why I am writing this.  If you can get the gear down on a YAK-50 that has an internal air leak, you can then place the gear handle back into the MIDDLE position, which isolates pneumatic pressure from the landing gear system, and allows the engine air compressor to pump back up to 50 atmos on BOTH the main and emergency bottle.  This then allows you to land with full pressure available to the BRAKES!  I flew a YAK-50 almost all the way from the east coast to Ramona California that way (for Vladimir Yastremski).  It had a bad air leak when the gear went down, enough so that I would have had to land with no brakes!

  available.  This method is not documented, but trust me when I say I am 100% sure of how this works.  It could be considered an Emergency Procedure.  

 

 Moving on, I would assume that during every Conditional Inspection on your aircraft, you swing the gear.  Part of that inspection is to make sure that the landing gear lights do not show down and locked BEFORE the landing gear is actually DOWN AND LOCKED!  I.E.  You don't want to have the gear lights indicate it is down, when it is actually NOT down.  This requires the landing gear to be lowered very slowly with a steady hand on the master air valve, while one person watches the lights and another person watches the external locking block snap into place.  

 

 So assuming that your landing gear indication switches were properly adjusted, then any kind of airline leak ANYWHERE in the system would not cause the gear to collapse once it indicated down and locked.  

 

 What this means is that if your gear collapsed upon or after landing, then they were never down and locked to begin with and you probably missed the fact that both green lights were not lit, or you heard what you thought were normal sounds and assumed the gear was down.  It's an easy mistake to make, and I personally believe I made the same mistake myself!  

 

 An air leak can cause enough pressure loss to keep the gear from coming down and locking... but if that were the case, there would be no air left in the main and emergency bottle, because you would have blown the gear with the emergency valve.  

 

 But if the gear was down and locked and indicating same ... you only have two possibilities. 

 

 1.  The landing gear indicators were totally mis-rigged *AND* you had an air leak preventing total gear extension, in which case you should shoot your A&P mechanic for not inspecting the landing gear switches properly. 

 

 2.  The landing gear was never down and locked to begin with.  

 

 Once the gear is down and locked, it does not need air to keep it down and locked.  Just the way it works Doc, so you may need to rethink what happened.  

 

 Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 --

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:06 pm Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

No my problem was not in the pop off valve itself. It was in the check valves. You are correct the top part of the CJ pop off valve with the piston and spring will work on the 50's base. just have to adjust the pop pressure afterward. The CJ T fitting is a male fitting at the base of the pop off valve. 

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Jun 7, 2013, at 1:15 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 I own a 74 Yak-50 and an 84 Yak-50.  

 

 The one way check valves between both aircraft are much different.  The two pressure relief valves are identical on both models.  

 

 Let me explain the process with a tad more detail as you might have missed it.   

 

 In my 50 Doc, I could not just replace the piston.  I had to replace the piston, the spring AND THE TOP SCREW ON PIECE.   If you just try to replace the piston, it will not work.  

 

 The only part of the pressure relief part that is identical is the seat, and the thread.  The top parts all have to be replaced.  

 

 Did you try that? 

 

 Mark

 

 

 --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:57 am Post subject: Air system 'stuff'

Ummm.... this is what I have been saying all along.  



Mark

--

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next
Page 1 of 3

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum