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flap angles, Kitfox IV

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uuccio(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:56 am Post subject: flap angles, Kitfox IV

Hi Kitfoxers,

I’m having some trouble with my full flaps setting on my Kitfox IV.  The aircraft (it’s a rebuild) has a tendency to want more right aileron when I select full flaps, which makes me think that I need to take some measurement of the angles of each flaperon with the stick centered and make sure they are the same.   Does anyone happen to know what are the angles corresponding to each flap position (zero, 1 notch, 2 notches, full flaps) should be?

Sacha

  [quote][b]

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:13 pm Post subject: flap angles, Kitfox IV

In the past, some Kitfox IV owners have reported enough loss of aileron authority with full flaps that they restricted flap deployment to something like 20 degrees.

Lowell


Sent via DroidX2 on Verizon Wirelessâ„¢


-----Original message-----

From: Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com>

To: Kitfox List <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Wed, Jun 5, 2013 15:05:44 GMT+00:00

Subject: Kitfox-List: flap angles, Kitfox IV


Hi Kitfoxers,


I'm having some trouble with my full flaps setting on my Kitfox IV.  The

aircraft (it's a rebuild) has a tendency to want more right aileron when I

select full flaps, which makes me think that I need to take some measurement

of the angles of each flaperon with the stick centered and make sure they

are the same.   Does anyone happen to know what are the angles corresponding

to each flap position (zero, 1 notch, 2 notches, full flaps) should be?


Sacha

uuccio(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:17 pm Post subject: flap angles, Kitfox IV

Thanks for that Lowell - I thought I had installed something wrong.Â  Works fine with just 2 notches of flaps!Â  I was trying full flaps with (only a little) crosswind but it was definitely not easy to controlâ€¦ now I know!

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net

Sent: Wednesday, 05 June, 2013 22:13

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: flap angles, Kitfox IV

  [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:58 am Post subject: flap angles, Kitfox IV

Sacha,

  

 Flaps  past 20 degrees for landing are  uesless.

  

 Full flaps 30 to 35 degrees are VERY usefull while  taking off !

 The real beneifit is to be found from sticky mud,  long grass, sand, and water   while on wheels

 on Skis -- heavy  Wet Snow 

  

 On floats  -- a real necessity -glassy water  take offs   --will pop you right off the water 

 all the above - lifting one side up first and  pulling the flaps for full deployment.

 Mind you alot have limited the flap travel and for  most of you that are pavement pounders 

 and do not explore the entire envelope of what your  plane could actually do it will be jusdt fine.

  

 for  the rest  - 30 to 35 degree down  travel a riot.........

  

  

                    Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the        internet chatter from the truth 



http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer        



Hundreds of Kitfox Movies 

Most viewed        Kitfox on youtube 

Most popular on youtube        

Highest rated on youtube



New Site - Kitfox related 

Will be building soon

http://www.kitfoxflyer.com/      

             

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
Highest rated on youtube

jareds(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:26 am Post subject: flap angles, Kitfox IV

I may have missed a lot of this conversation but on the model 4 we discussed many years ago how pulling flap lever all the way up one may think that is full flaps but in reality the full flap position is about half of that otherwise you may experience a very irratic stall situation.   Full up may give you a speed break but definitely not the position to have it in for takeoff over obstical or landing config short runway etc like in conventional aircraft.   Jared



Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		     <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->

Thanks for that Lowell - I thought I had installed something wrong.Â  Works fine with just 2 notches of flaps!Â  I was trying full flaps with (only a little) crosswind but it was definitely not easy to controlâ€¦ now I know!

 

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.netSent: Wednesday, 05 June, 2013 22:13To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: flap angles, Kitfox IV

 



 

   	  Quote: 	
		  

	
	




 -- 

 Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

uuccio(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:11 am Post subject: flap angles, Kitfox IV

Dave/Jared

Thanks for your comments. 

I have now clocked up all of 4 hours solo on the Kitfox and there are no other kit foxes locally so I'm kind of learning on my own.

 I've taken off with no flaps, 10deg and 20deg and have landed also with those configurations. Everything works fine.

But when I put 30deg flaps (I tried this up at altitude yesterday), the plane starts banking left and I almost need full right stick to keep it S&L. I didn't try this for very long as I'm still not very confident in the plane, but this doesn't feel normal to me.  Does anyone have any suggestions for how this might be corrected?  I don't really want to limit flap travel to 20deg if I can avoid doing so.

Dave:

I mostly fly from grass strips on wheels. Can you explain how 30-35deg flaps can come in handy for takeoffs? (What situations, what techniques to use). Just trying to learn more about the machine.  (I'd love to try floats but it seems like installing a pair is a lot of work, and also I think the life of the aircraft would seriously be shortened by all that salt water....)

Sacha 



On Jun 9, 2013, at 11:58, "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)> wrote:

[quote]    (at)font-face { 	font-family: MS Mincho; } (at)font-face { 	font-family: MS Mincho; } (at)font-face { 	font-family: Calibri; } (at)font-face { 	font-family: Tahoma; } (at)font-face { 	font-family: (at)MS Mincho; } (at)page WordSection1 {size: 612.0pt 792.0pt; margin: 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt; } P.MsoNormal { 	MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; FONT-SIZE: 11pt } LI.MsoNormal { 	MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; FONT-SIZE: 11pt } DIV.MsoNormal { 	MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; FONT-SIZE: 11pt } A:link { 	COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { 	COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } A:visited { 	COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { 	COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99 } SPAN.EmailStyle17 { 	FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-style-type: personal-reply } .MsoChpDefault { 	FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-style-type: export-only } DIV.WordSection1 { 	page: WordSection1 }    <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->  Sacha,

  

 Flaps  past 20 degrees for landing are  uesless.

  

 Full flaps 30 to 35 degrees are VERY usefull while  taking off !

 The real beneifit is to be found from sticky mud,  long grass, sand, and water   while on wheels

 on Skis -- heavy  Wet Snow 

  

 On floats  -- a real necessity -glassy water  take offs   --will pop you right off the water 

 all the above - lifting one side up first and  pulling the flaps for full deployment.

 Mind you alot have limited the flap travel and for  most of you that are pavement pounders 

 and do not explore the entire envelope of what your  plane could actually do it will be jusdt fine.

  

 for  the rest  - 30 to 35 degree down  travel a riot.........

  

  

                    Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the        internet chatter from the truth 



http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer        



Hundreds of Kitfox Movies 

Most viewed        Kitfox on youtube 

Most popular on youtube        

Highest rated on youtube



New Site - Kitfox related 

Will be building soon

http://www.kitfoxflyer.com/      

             

 [quote]   ---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:30 am Post subject: flap angles, Kitfox IV

flaps on take off 

 If you new  to flying -limit your self to 20  degrees.

  

 Take offs with 30 + degrees

 zero ot 20 degrees on roll and pulling the last bit  as you are real to pop off the sticky surface.

 You  only want to do this to break ground  ......

 once airboure - hold nose down and bleeds off   flaps to 20 degree- now you got less drag and roll control.

  

 Enjoy.

  

  

 Dave

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

uuccio(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:29 am Post subject: flap angles, Kitfox IV

Thanks Dave.  Not completely new to flying (i have a PPL and about 80hrs) but still consider myself very green and definitely new to the Kitfox. It's a little more "lively" than a PA28 or a C172!  I personally love it... But i'll take your advice and wait until i've clocked up a bunch of hours to get comfortable before I start experimenting with usual flap configurations. 

In the meantime, do you have an opinion regarding my question as to whether a pronounced left roll with full flaps is normal or something in the controls which I should investigate and try to correct...



On Jun 10, 2013, at 11:30, "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)> wrote:

[quote]     flaps on take off 

 If you new  to flying -limit your self to 20  degrees.

  

 Take offs with 30 + degrees

 zero ot 20 degrees on roll and pulling the last bit  as you are real to pop off the sticky surface.

 You  only want to do this to break ground  ......

 once airboure - hold nose down and bleeds off   flaps to 20 degree- now you got less drag and roll control.

  

 Enjoy.

  

  

 Dave

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: flap angles, Kitfox IV

Sacha, do you have the "Assembly manual for your Kitfox?  You need it to check the rigging on your control system.  The flaperons will neutralize themselves in flight.  If pulling on flaps causes the plane to roll there is a problem in the rigging.



Due to the design of the differential flaperon control syatem there are different angles built into the flaperon horns in relation to the flaperons.  left is 5 degrees and right is 19.4 degrees.



As said in others posts..pulling on full flaps limits roll control.  I suspect your problem is the someone rigged your flaperons with the same angles and causes the limit in roll control to be all on one side.



The model 4 did not have "Notches" for the flaps if yours does that is someones own design.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: flap angles, Kitfox IV

To get an idea if rigging is out of wack, try this.



Sitting in the ground hold the stick full left and slowly raise the flap handle until you feel the stick start to move to the right.  Mark the location of the flap handle when this resistance is felt.  Now hold stick full right and pull the flap handle until you fell the stick start to move left.



The position of the flap handle when resistance in the stick is felt in each test should be the same.  This is the flap position where roll control starts to be limited by too much flaps. Like I said above.  I think yours may be all on one side.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

uuccio(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:28 pm Post subject: flap angles, Kitfox IV

Tom,

Thanks a lot for the useful info. 

No I have no manual; I was told it's a Kitfox IV but I don't really have any way of verifying that.

I've emailed Kitfox a few times saying i'd like to purchase a manual but i've had no reply yet. I'll keep on trying...

Regards

Sacha



On Jun 11, 2013, at 4:54, "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Sacha, do you have the "Assembly manual for your Kitfox?  You need it to check the rigging on your control system.  The flaperons will neutralize themselves in flight.  If pulling on flaps causes the plane to roll there is a problem in the rigging.

 

 Due to the design of the differential flaperon control syatem there are different angles built into the flaperon horns in relation to the flaperons.  left is 5 degrees and right is 19.4 degrees.

 

 As said in others posts..pulling on full flaps limits roll control.  I suspect your problem is the someone rigged your flaperons with the same angles and causes the limit in roll control to be all on one side.

 

 The model 4 did not have "Notches" for the flaps if yours does that is someones own design.

 

 --------

 Tom Jones

 Classic IV

 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

 Ellensburg, WA

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402448#402448

uuccio(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:47 pm Post subject: flap angles, Kitfox IV

Thanks again Tom!

I'm away from the aircraft for a week but I'll try this when I'm back and report my findings.

Sacha



On Jun 11, 2013, at 5:07, "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 To get an idea if rigging is out of wack, try this.

 

 Sitting in the ground hold the stick full left and slowly raise the flap handle until you feel the stick start to move to the right.  Mark the location of the flap handle when this resistance is felt.  Now hold stick full right and pull the flap handle until you fell the stick start to move left.

 

 The position of the flap handle when resistance in the stick is felt in each test should be the same.  This is the flap position where roll control starts to be limited by too much flaps. Like I said above.  I think yours may be all on one side.

 

 --------

 Tom Jones

 Classic IV

 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

 Ellensburg, WA

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402449#402449

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:49 am Post subject: flap angles, Kitfox IV

Tom,



Good info - I never touched on the rigging.



Here is some more info that you might find helpful.



http://www.cfisher.com/flapperons/

---

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:17 am Post subject: Re: flap angles, Kitfox IV

Hello everyone! ... (long time, no writing! 



If it may interest anyone: I have a Kitfox 3 built in 1992 by someone who built it as his 3rd Kitfox. He had limited the flaps to 10 degrees and that's how I fly today.



I never use the flaps if it isn't as a pitch trim on long distance smooth air flights. I control my altitude vs. speed on final by side-slipping.



The only time I have used the 10 degrees flaps on take-off is when on a short and wet grass field. I get airborne a bit sooner and fly a couple of feet over the ground until gaining enough speed to start initial climb.



Cheers,

Michel

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 - Norway

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:22 am Post subject: Re: flap angles, Kitfox IV

Dave, thanks for posting the link to Dr. Fox's flaperon differential article.  I had all the old " Kitfox Times" magazines in a box but lost it in my last move.



Anyone wanting to really understand the Model IV flaperon differential design go to Dave's link http://www.cfisher.com/flapperons/ and print out

these three pages:

â€¢ flaperon.jpeg

â€¢ flaperon_001.jpg

â€¢ flaperon_002.jpg



When I read this article when it first came out was the first time I understood the design and what makes it work.



Michel, good to hear you again.  You know you were the inspiration that got me motivated to learn to fly my tailwheel kitfox.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:40 am Post subject: flap angles, Kitfox IV

I can echo Michel's comments.   I have never landed with flaps.  Side slips 

makes finding the threshold easy enough.  I have them blocked at 20° and 

plan on doing some experimenting with them on my new Model IV - maybe.



Lowell



--------------------------------------------------

From: "Michel" <michel(at)online.no>

Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 3:17 AM

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: flap angles, Kitfox IV



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hello everyone! ... (long time, no writing! 



 If it may interest anyone: I have a Kitfox 3 built in 1992 by someone who 

 built it as his 3rd Kitfox. He had limited the flaps to 10 degrees and 

 that's how I fly today.



 I never use the flaps if it isn't as a pitch trim on long distance smooth 

 air flights. I control my altitude vs. speed on final by side-slipping.



 The only time I have used the 10 degrees flaps on take-off is when on a 

 short and wet grass field. I get airborne a bit sooner and fly a couple of 

 feet over the ground until gaining enough speed to start initial climb.



 Cheers,

 Michel

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 - Norway



 --------

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402468#402468

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:00 pm Post subject: flap angles, Kitfox IV

Michael - Agree on the flap infor for your model 3



Lowell.-  not using flaps ?  you are  limiting your usefulness of this 

plane.

limit 20 degrees - sure for the vast majortiy maybe

BUT



The ones who actually can and  want to explore the envelope of their kitfox 

further the flaps to their maximun extent will give superior

performance benefits to the ones who chose this route.



Knowing the entire envelope of your plane is a real attribute to all 

pilots/owners.



You will

know better how to take off better

know how ot land slower and shorter when needed.

know how to deadstick land on a runway or in a field

know your limits better and better

know to not become complacent

Make a bad situation better



Dave

---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:51 am Post subject: flap angles, Kitfox IV

Dave,

Lots of different Kitfoxes and lots of different folks flying in lots of 

different environments.   I agree with what you said regarding exploring the 

envelope, but this is what suits me.   I guess the reason I posted is to let 

those interested know that there are a variety of purposes, experiences and 

preferences when we fly our airplanes.  For the individual situation, none 

necessarily better than the others - just different.  I would be the last 

person to suggest that it is "my way or the highway" - but rather just 

another way.

Lowell

--------------------------------------------------

From: "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>

Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:00 PM

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: flap angles, Kitfox IV



[quote] 



 Michael - Agree on the flap infor for your model 3



 Lowell.-  not using flaps ?  you are  limiting your usefulness of this 

 plane.

 limit 20 degrees - sure for the vast majortiy maybe

 BUT



 The ones who actually can and  want to explore the envelope of their 

 kitfox further the flaps to their maximun extent will give superior

 performance benefits to the ones who chose this route.



 Knowing the entire envelope of your plane is a real attribute to all 

 pilots/owners.



 You will

 know better how to take off better

 know how ot land slower and shorter when needed.

 know how to deadstick land on a runway or in a field

 know your limits better and better

 know to not become complacent

 Make a bad situation better



 Dave

 ---

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:55 am Post subject: Re: flap angles, Kitfox IV

 	  lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: 	
		  Lots of different Kitfoxes and lots of different folks flying in lots of different environments. I agree with what you said regarding exploring the envelope 	




I agree with you, Lowell (and I also agree with Dave! 

Here in Norway, we have to do a "periodic" test with an instructor every second year. I did mine a week ago. After a few touch & go on two and three points, I am asked to climb 500 ft on a 360 left turn, then descent 500 ft on a 360 right turn. Easy, if you watch the altimeter and the needle rising 180 degrees for a 360 degrees turn. Then I am asked to do a straight ahead stall. Easy, my Kitfox mushes down beautifully. Then I am asked to do a stall in a turn. As for the previous years, I answer "No, I don't like it. This is how a spin starts!" And my instructor says " ... okay!" 



My point is, we all have things we like to do and things we don't. We fly for fun so let's keep it fun.



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

mikeperkins

Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:22 am Post subject: Re: flap angles, Kitfox IV

Dave, do you have numbers for what your standard T.O. distance is with flaps 0, 10, and 20?

_________________
Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop

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