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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:43 am Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Frans

this is the USA Long EZ that was my mentor. He is based in Florida and has no cooling problems.Note the small cooling air inlets.

The third inlet is the engine breathing to the fuel injector servo.

Graham

        From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Wednesday, 12 June 2013, 8:45

 Subject: Re: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)>



On 06/11/2013 11:12 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   It would be worth researching exhaust extraction. I have it on my

 Lycoming (pusher Long EZ) and it works

 Warm day, full throttle on the ground for 10 minutes, throttle back and

 it  cools down from near red line..


	


I implemented exhaust extraction also in my Europa. No venturi, just the

exhaust tube shorter than the tunnel it is fed through. I could however

never establish that it is really working as designed. Fact is that I'm

unable to overheat the engine on the ground, but that can also be the

result of the completely different low drag cooling arrangement. Or the

Woodcomp propeller of course.

http://forums.matronics                    &nbsptronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri================

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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:10 am Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Jerry,



Martin is working on new ferrules for the new carbon fiber blades.

Jack Norris was the designer for the blades for the hydraulic constant speed outfit and when I asked him about them he told me that they were optimized for faster aircraft like the Europa.

 



Paul

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Jeremy Fisher <jffisher(at)gmail.com (jffisher(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] Thanks.  However the Whirlwind story is confusing.  Effectively there are now two Whirlwind companies, the original for fixed pitch props and a spin-off for constant speed.  I think that Martin at Airmaster was referring to the blades from the hydraulic constant speed outfit.  The fixed pitch company also has new carbon fiber blades, but I think that they are 70", which is a bit much.  I will follow up.  And yes Nigel, thanks, you are right, I do need to check the inertia data. 



This has turned out to be a much more complex question than I originally understood, but it does make quite a difference in aircraft performance and reliability.

Jerry



[b]

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:36 am Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

On 06/12/2013 02:42 PM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Frans

 this is the USA Long EZ that was my mentor. He is based in Florida and

 has no cooling problems.Note the small cooling air inlets.


	


Thanks for the picture! This looks quite like my own setup. I guess it

must be working then.



Frans

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:33 am Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Jerry,

 Having been the US Dealer now for nearly six years and I have put blades on  everything from Rans, Vans, Kitfox, Highlander, Zenith, Ximango, and every other  in between using the Rotax 912, 912S and 914.

  

 The best blade is more of a decision on how you want to fly and how much  maintenance you want to do.  Each prop manufacturer tries to optimize his  prop for the 912S as it is the most common engine in the experimental  fleet.  Back to my previous post, a light prop blade is great until you hit  something, fly through rain, sand and the like which leave you grounded for  months, tough blades last longer but are heavier and weight is a  penalty....

  

 As the US Dealer for Airmaster and Europa, I test blades for Martin from  time to time for the Europa and other planes.  Again, we have found the  best blades to be Whirlwind for speed, WD for toughness, Sensenich in  between.  I don't do Bolly or Kiev.  Max length for any WD is 67  inches or the prop just makes noise, and 64 inch is tollerable provided the  blade has a wider tip.  Same for Whirlwind.  Sensenich is better on  float planes at 68 to 70 inches due to the tip shape, twist and chord  length.

  

 As for length of the prop, I have tried a number.  Don't get into that  trap of longer is always better.  Look at your engine and torque or prop  power curve.  The Rotax only turns at 2050 at cruise prop speed.  So  one would think I need a longer prop, but to absorb the torque it would need a  narrower blade, have less area, and be twisted in a way where it is stalled at  some speeds or altitudes...  The Sensenich doesn't really perform (swept  tip) until over 68 inches any better than the others because the sweep of  the tip lowers the pull from the tip (but it looks cool).  The Whirlwind is  only average at the longer blade lengths but is great at the short lengths due  to the wide tip and generous mid chord.  Trust me, the 64-68 inch  WD narrow chord sucks on the Europa and anything else.  Max length is  67 inches for the wider chord blades and works fine for any of the  912S and 914 engines.  I attain as much speed with my 64 as a 67, on  the Fascination or Europa, why, the blade is at a higher angle and more of my  prop is pulling due to the twist angle at our speed range (over 130 KIAS).   The 67 out accellerates from 70-100 the short blade is all that I have  seen.

  

 We have seen many claims about cooling, twist and static thrust.   Frankly the 64 inch for a 914 is the min diameter and 67 is the max because of  engine torque, or lack of it.  The actual performance difference is  minimal.  Ground clearance takes care of the prop ding problem.  The  FAA mandates a min clearance and our Europa is at the min clearance now.   

  

 I too like the KISS principle.  I prefer to have folks fly, not  tinker, but that is the choice of each builder.  

  

 Call or email me anytime, and I can discuss further what we have seen as a  dealer...

  

 Bud Yerly

  

 [quote]   ---

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:44 am Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Remi,

 I am distressed that you are still having cooling issues.  If you did  all I described in the cooling 101 article printed in the Europa Flyer, it  should cool handily.

  

 I can operate for 25 minutes on the ground and not hit 275F on a 90F  day.  The XS cowl is not optimal, but the root width is the same with my  332 as yours.  

 The mono exit from your engine compartment is probably only an inch wide,  but if your ducting is sealed you should be able to cool very well in  Europe.

  

 I gave Martin my ideas for a root extension for the ferrule on the WD  blade, as I just don't have time to make one up.  It basically is an  extension to the blade and a riveted airfoil shape to the spinner similar to the  new blades on the C130J and other turboprop engine/prop combinations.  That  will help a breeze close in to the cowl, but is intended for cruise performance  increase.

  

 Check your ducting carefully.  If you did not see my changes for the  XS cowl, refer to my website or Airmaster's website (Europa Application) for  download.

  

 Bud Yerly

 www.customflightcreations.com

 [quote]   ---

ken carp

Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 29
Location: Knoxville, TN

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:07 pm Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Will add my two bits to the discussion.  Have been using Airmaster prop with three blade warp drive for 550 hours.  No sig problems and was able to replace one blade without difficulty when one blade damaged.  Had a wire in the hub break while flying and it no sig problem.  Just stayed at the climb rpm till got back on ground.  

Have been happy with it...though have never flown with any other prop.  

Ken carpenter

N212KC.  914 mono



Sent from my iPad



On Jun 13, 2013, at 3:43 PM, "Bud Yerly" <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:

[quote]      <?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Remi,

 I am distressed that you are still having cooling issues.  If you did  all I described in the cooling 101 article printed in the Europa Flyer, it  should cool handily.

  

 I can operate for 25 minutes on the ground and not hit 275F on a 90F  day.  The XS cowl is not optimal, but the root width is the same with my  332 as yours.  

 The mono exit from your engine compartment is probably only an inch wide,  but if your ducting is sealed you should be able to cool very well in  Europe.

  

 I gave Martin my ideas for a root extension for the ferrule on the WD  blade, as I just don't have time to make one up.  It basically is an  extension to the blade and a riveted airfoil shape to the spinner similar to the  new blades on the C130J and other turboprop engine/prop combinations.  That  will help a breeze close in to the cowl, but is intended for cruise performance  increase.

  

 Check your ducting carefully.  If you did not see my changes for the  XS cowl, refer to my website or Airmaster's website (Europa Application) for  download.

  

 Bud Yerly

 www.customflightcreations.com

 [quote]   ---

_________________
ken carpenter

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Hi Bud,

I really think the solutions to overheating on the ground are either more airflow from the prop or a complete rework of the cooling system. The first one means better blades. The second one means a bigger and/or more effective radiator and a completely redesigned cowl. I have made only limited mods to my cowl which produced some positive results and I am not prepared to make a completely new cowl as I do not like when the plane is grounded for months and I cannot fly! I am not ready either to spend the money to replace my prop, unless I manage to break it one day. So I have to live with this issue and be careful not to boil over.

Thanks for your comments.

Remi

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:39 pm Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Having said my bit several times before I hesitate to 

repeat it, but here is a short version: firstly I have a 

lot of friends using the Airmaster and they are happy with 

it, and it is clear to me hat it s a good propeller. I 

first became interested in the Woodcomp/Kremen as it then 

was, when I saw Tom Justic with a 914/Woodcomp combination 

appear to significantly out climb the Europa Company 

914/Airmaster during the 2000 Europa Club fly out to 

Prague

     I ended up buying a Woodcomp SR2000. This performed 

well, but not I suspect any better than an Airmaster, and 

indeed the blade characteristics wre fairly similar. There 

were issues with the power of the pitch change motor 

affecting the system reliability which I feel have been 

largely addressed in the later SR3000 range. I changed to 

an SR3000W prop when I was trying to optimise performance 

with a view to flying to Australia. This has a blade twist 

of around 26 degrees (compared with something of the order 

of 12 degrees for the SR2000 and the Warp Drive blades), 

which is what you need theoretically to fly at speeds in 

the 90 to 160kt range -we were hoping to go to Australia 

at 150kts cruising at 10,000ft. I did closely monitored 

comparisons between my planes performance with he two 

propellers. With the SR3000 the climb rate and fuel 

consumption were slightly better. Top speed at various 

heights was 4kts higher (equivalent to an extra 7 HP) but 

most striking of all was that my cooling (which had always 

been a problem) was totally transformed. I no longer 

boiled if held up at the Rally waiting behind several 

planes for take off, and for the first time I could do a 

5min full power climb.

           So my message to anyone having persiistent 

problems with 914/XS cooling is to get hold of a high 

twist propeller. The explanation, which barely needs 

stating is that with a low twist propeller the central 

part of the prop is effectively in Beta mode at any speed 

over 40kts and is diverting air away from the cooling 

intakes.

     Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ



On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 16:04:26 -0400

  Ken Carpenter <kbcarpenter(at)comcast.net> wrote:

[quote] Will add my two bits to the discussion.  Have been using 

Airmaster prop with three blade warp drive for 550 hours. 

 No sig problems and was able to replace one blade 

without difficulty when one blade damaged.  Had a wire in 

the hub break while flying and it no sig problem.  Just 

stayed at the climb rpm till got back on ground.  

 Have been happy with it...though have never flown with 

any other prop.  

 Ken carpenter

 N212KC.  914 mono

 

 Sent from my iPad

 

 On Jun 13, 2013, at 3:43 PM, "Bud Yerly" 

<budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:

 

> Remi,

> I am distressed that you are still having cooling 

>issues.  If you did all I described in the cooling 101 

>article printed in the Europa Flyer, it should cool 

>handily.

>  

> I can operate for 25 minutes on the ground and not hit 

>275F on a 90F day.  The XS cowl is not optimal, but the 

>root width is the same with my 332 as yours. 

> The mono exit from your engine compartment is probably 

>only an inch wide, but if your ducting is sealed you 

>should be able to cool very well in Europe.

>  

> I gave Martin my ideas for a root extension for the 

>ferrule on the WD blade, as I just don't have time to 

>make one up.  It basically is an extension to the blade 

>and a riveted airfoil shape to the spinner similar to the 

>new blades on the C130J and other turboprop engine/prop 

>combinations.  That will help a breeze close in to the 

>cowl, but is intended for cruise performance increase.

>  

> Check your ducting carefully.  If you did not see my 

>changes for the XS cowl, refer to my website or 

>Airmaster's website (Europa Application) for download.

>  

> Bud Yerly

> www.customflightcreations.com

> ---

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:57 pm Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Remi,

 I would be glad to look at photo's of your cowl and coolers and make  suggestions that are cheap and fairly fast.

  

 Please also look at your exhaust as I have seen three recently with  significant leaks.  Near disaster really.  

  

 The blade you have is long enough to get air to the cooling duct on the  XS.   Taxi in course prop setting.  I get a significant airflow  by running up to 2300 and then going manual and course back to 1900 to get more  flow of blade and water pump.

  

 Best Regards,

 Bud

 [quote]   ---

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Hi.

Sorry been on holiday so have not read any of the previous postings

.

Made in England, Forget it. Just say what I think the last British ailrliner was the 146 and that was many years ago.

Send an e-mail to Air master and you will get reply the next day.

Think the full kit including all controllers is about Â£5000.

As for spares you won,t need any, and if you do I bet you would get them within 10 days,

...

Alan



Have an Airplast PV50, never managed to contact them, and as the crow fly's its about 100 miles.

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:15 pm Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Arplast PV50 has the best blades I ever used, engineering not as good as Airmaster. 

You need to speak French to talk to them, certain Brits upset them a few years ago

so the gave up on us.

I still consider Alain and his daughter Leticia friends. His single seater is a work of art.

Composite work among the best I've seen.

Graham





        From: Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent:  Saturday, 15 June 2013, 21:07

 Subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>



Hi.

Sorry been on holiday so have not read any of the previous postings

.

Made in England, Forget it. Just say what I think the last British ailrliner was the 146 and that was many years ago.

Send an e-mail to Air master and you will get reply the next day.

Think the full kit including all controllers is about Â£5000.

As for spares you won,t need any, and if you do I bet you would get them within 10 days,

...

Alan



Have an Airplast PV50, never managed to contact them, and as the crow fly's its about 100 miles.





Read this topic online  here:



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