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Erratic voltage output

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dougsnash

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:45 am Post subject: Erratic voltage output

I'm having an erratic voltage output problem on my 912UL powered CH-701.  



To try and fix the problem I have replaced the voltage regulator and verified I have no loose connections in the electrical system.  Even with a new regulator I am still getting the same voltage spikes when at full power.  At idle and during run-up the voltage reading on my analog VDO voltmeter is rock solid.  It indicates about 14 volts once up off of idle power and my digital voltmeter show about 13.6 Volts.  Once I apply takeoff power the analog voltmeter needle starts to vibrate wildly plus and minus about 1-2 volts and the digital voltmeter becomes unstable.  If I am flying with a light electrical load, the digital voltmeter tops out at just over 14 volts but drifts around as low as 13.7.  If I put on my nav and strobe  lights the voltage drops to 13.3-13.6 range but the needle on the analog meter continues to vibrate the same.



The only other components (beside the regulator) in the electrical system I can think of which might be causing the voltage spikes are the capacitor or a problem with the actual alternator coils.  I thought the problem may have been a bad analog gauge but given that the digital readings are also erratic I believe it to be a legitimate issue and not simply a display problem.



I'm pretty good at chasing electrons but this issue has me stumped.  Anyone have any ideas what could be causing my erratic voltage output?



Doug MacDonald

CH-701, Northwestern Ontario



 [quote][b]

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:12 am Post subject: Erratic voltage output

Doug:



Being that your Analog Gauge is vibrating indicates that you may have a Vibration issue... Such as being in need of a Dynamic Prop Balance. 
For a battery to charge you need 13.8 to 14.2 VDC - Less than that you are not charging. 
Being that the voltage is correct at idle and fluxuates at cruise speed could be an indication of (a) A heat issue or (b) A vibration issue or (c) Both
There are a few funky issues with Rotax and their internal voltage production - Too Bad Rotax has never solved this problem. 

Barry  

"Pilots think they are mechanics, because they can buy tools at Home Depot."



 



On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:44 AM, MacDonald Doug <dougsnash(at)yahoo.com (dougsnash(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

[quote] I'm having an erratic voltage output problem on my 912UL powered CH-701.  



To try and fix the problem I have replaced the voltage regulator and verified I have no loose connections in the electrical system.  Even with a new regulator I am still getting the same voltage spikes when at full power.  At idle and during run-up the voltage reading on my analog VDO voltmeter is rock solid.  It indicates about 14 volts once up off of idle power and my digital voltmeter show about 13.6 Volts.  Once I apply takeoff power the analog voltmeter needle starts to vibrate wildly plus and minus about 1-2 volts and the digital voltmeter becomes unstable.  If I am flying with a light electrical load, the digital voltmeter tops out at just over 14 volts but drifts around as low as 13.7.  If I put on my nav and strobe  lights the voltage drops to 13.3-13.6 range but the needle on the analog meter continues to vibrate the same.



The only other components (beside the regulator) in the electrical system I can think of which might be causing the voltage spikes are the capacitor or a problem with the actual alternator coils.  I thought the problem may have been a bad analog gauge but given that the digital readings are also erratic I believe it to be a legitimate issue and not simply a display problem.

 

I'm pretty good at chasing electrons but this issue has me stumped.  Anyone have any ideas what could be causing my erratic voltage output?



Doug MacDonald

CH-701, Northwestern Ontario



   	  Quote: 	
		  



ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Erratic voltage output

Hi Doug,



This happens when the ground is poor. Try a test. leave the existing ground in place and install a more direct and solid ground from the battery, to the engine to the wiring ground block for the plane. I have had numerous issues like this I cured by installing a much more direct and solid ground.

It won't hurt to try it and rule it out as a factor.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

b.carl@sympatico.ca

Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 77

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:25 pm Post subject: Erratic voltage output

Hi Doug

 You stated you have no loose contacts, you could  have a poor contact.  Two years ago I had an intermittent  charging problem that took two day to trace. It was in an in-line fuse holder,  the rubber coated ones that take ATC fuses. The fuse looked fairly normal  but when I cut the holder open it was corroded and burnt. Replaced problem  gone.

 Carl

 [quote]   ---

Paul Grimstad

Joined: 25 Sep 2012
Posts: 10

Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:10 pm Post subject: Erratic voltage output

We have been experiencing wild fluctuations on the amperage meter, running a 912uls with Dynon 180 EFIS engine monitor. The spikes range from +5 to -6. Voltage is also high (high 13’s), but then it seems to settle down after takeoff. I thought the high voltage maybe because we just installed a new battery.

We also just installed a new voltage regulator and when we grounded the plane and took a look at the condition we found the two power leads going into the regulator were completely melted and the heat was starting to melt the plastic mounting socket on the Ducati voltage regulator. We replaced the spade connectors on the main power leads and replaced the wiring socket plug-in connector as well. 

We had heard that the Rotax engine electronic system is very sensitive to the requirement of the ground connection, so additionally we ran a 10ga copper wire from the base lug on the voltage regulator to the negative terminal connecting stud at the battery/airframe. This has not solved the problem. I flew 7hours last weekend and near the end of the flight time, I noticed the amp gauge still jumping up and down.

I have spoken with several knowledgeable Rotax guys and both asked me if I ran the ground from the base of the voltage regulator directly to the engine block?

So, this afternoon I removed the wire socket plug connector and inspected the wire ends and crimped connectors. There was no sign of heat damage, so I reconnected the primary connection plug. I made up another ground wire with soldered wire ends and waterproof shrink tubing. I then installed the new ground wire from the mounting bolt on the base of the voltage regulator directly to the engine block. Tomorrow I will run the engine and see if the problem is solved.

Hope this helps, I will let you know how it goes.

Paul Grimstad,

Team RV12

Portland, OR      

 

From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl

Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 1:25 PM

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Erratic voltage output

 

Hi Doug



You stated you have no loose contacts, you could have a poor contact.  Two years ago I had an intermittent charging problem that took two day to trace. It was in an in-line fuse holder, the rubber coated ones that take ATC fuses. The fuse looked fairly normal but when I cut the holder open it was corroded and burnt. Replaced problem gone.



Carl

[quote]

---

dougsnash

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:08 am Post subject: Erratic voltage output

So, my troubleshooting saga continues.  The first thing I did was run an 18ga ground wire from the regulator body to the negative terminal of the capacitor which then goes to the firewall buss bar.  When this did not solve the erratic output issue I replaced the regulator.  Neither of these steps helped the problem.  

 

My engine ground lead is an 8ga wire running from a lug on the top of the right rear cylinder to the ground lead on the firewall buss.  From the firewall buss, both the positive and negative leads are 8ga wire and go to my main buss which is mounted behind the instrument panel.  From the main buss the positive and negative leads are 8ga and run down the passenger side of the airframe to the battery which is located behind the  passenger seat.  At the battery the ground wire attaches to an airframe ground point on the battery mount frame then through an 8ga wire to the negative post.  The positive lead goes to the master solenoid and then to the positive post of the battery (all 8ga).  As per Roger's suggestion, I have been pulling each of these main power leads one terminal at a time and thoroughly cleaning the connections.  So far I have gotten to the main buss and firewall buss but still need to clean the connections at the battery.  While I have found some oxidization, I have thus far found no corrosion which could be causing my erratic output issue.

 

Today after work I will pull the belly pan off of the plane and clean all of the connections at the battery.  I also want to pull the connections of the charge lead from the voltage regulator to the ALT circuit breaker and main buss to  verify they are okay.  So far , however, I'm not seeing anything that could be the source of my problem.  My CH-701 is almost three years old and has just shy of 200 hours on it.  This voltage issue is has come on gradually over the last few months as the output has been stable until I noticed the needle gyrations in about March when my flying hours began to pick up.

 

One other thing I am going to try is a new capacitor.  Lockwood sells an aftermarket 22000MF cap for $35.00 so I figured I may as well try it.  My capacitor is about ten years old with an unknown history so it is possible that is has started to go bad.  I also might try a different ground wire location on the engine.  Perhaps the cylinder head is not an ideal ground location.

 

Any other  suggestions?

 

Doug M

CH-701 from scratch

NW Ontario, Canada



Time: 11:10:19 PM PST US

From: "Paul Grimstad" <paul(at)controlapproach.com (paul(at)controlapproach.com)>

Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Erratic voltage output



We have been experiencing wild fluctuations on the amperage meter, running a

912uls with Dynon 180 EFIS engine monitor. The spikes range from +5 to -6.

Voltage is also high (high 13's), but then it seems to settle down after

takeoff. I thought the high voltage maybe because we just installed a new

battery.



We also just installed a new voltage regulator and when we grounded the

plane and took a look at the condition we found the two power leads going

into the regulator were completely melted and the heat was starting to  melt

the plastic mounting socket on the Ducati voltage regulator. We replaced the

spade connectors on the main power leads and replaced the wiring socket

plug-in connector as well. 



We had heard that the Rotax engine electronic system is very sensitive to

the requirement of the ground connection, so additionally we ran a 10ga

copper wire from the base lug on the voltage regulator to the negative

terminal connecting stud at the battery/airframe. This has not solved the

problem. I flew 7hours last weekend and near the end of the flight time, I

noticed the amp gauge still jumping up and down.



I have spoken with several knowledgeable Rotax guys and both asked me if I

ran the ground from the base of the voltage regulator directly to the engine

block?



So, this afternoon I removed the wire socket plug connector and inspected

the wire ends and crimped connectors. There was no sign of heat damage, so  I

reconnected the primary connection plug. I made up another ground wire with

soldered wire ends and waterproof shrink tubing. I then installed the new

ground wire from the mounting bolt on the base of the voltage regulator

directly to the engine block. Tomorrow I will run the engine and see if the

problem is solved.



Hope this helps, I will let you know how it goes.



Paul Grimstad,



Team RV12



Portland, OR      

    

 [quote][b]

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:58 am Post subject: Re: Erratic voltage output

Hi Doug,



The ground wire on the cyl. head should be just fine. Many of us use it and it seems to work without any issues.

I have those capacitors and they are $20. Same as Lockwood or anyone else unless you go to the super-sized model with finger nuts on top instead of soldering the terminals on, but those are about triple or more the price.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Paul Grimstad

Joined: 25 Sep 2012
Posts: 10

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:03 am Post subject: Erratic voltage output

I would pull and inspect the spade connections to the voltage regulator. John suggested the capacitor might be an issue.  I don't know where that is located. Can you test with freeze spray?

-------- Original message --------

From: MacDonald Doug <dougsnash(at)yahoo.com> 

Date: 06/17/2013  4:07 AM  (GMT-08:00) 

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com 

Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Erratic voltage output 

So, my troubleshooting saga continues.  The first thing I did was run an 18ga ground wire from the regulator body to the negative terminal of the capacitor which then goes to the firewall buss bar.  When this did not solve the erratic output issue I replaced the regulator.  Neither of these steps helped the problem.  

My engine ground lead is an 8ga wire running from a lug on the top of the right rear cylinder to the ground lead on the firewall buss.  From the firewall buss, both the positive and negative leads are 8ga wire and go to my main buss which is mounted behind the instrument panel.  From the main buss the positive and negative leads are 8ga and run down the passenger side of the airframe to the battery which is located behind the  passenger seat.  At the battery the ground wire attaches to an airframe ground point on the battery mount frame then through an 8ga wire to the negative post.  The positive lead goes to the master solenoid and then to the positive post of the battery (all 8ga).  As per Roger's suggestion, I have been pulling each of these main power leads one terminal at a time and thoroughly cleaning the connections.  So far I have gotten to the main buss and firewall buss but still need to clean the connections at the battery.  While I have found some oxidization, I have thus far found no corrosion which could be causing my erratic output issue.

Today after work I will pull the belly pan off of the plane and clean all of the connections at the battery.  I also want to pull the connections of the charge lead from the voltage regulator to the ALT circuit breaker and main buss to  verify they are okay.  So far , however, I'm not seeing anything that could be the source of my problem.  My CH-701 is almost three years old and has just shy of 200 hours on it.  This voltage issue is has come on gradually over the last few months as the output has been stable until I noticed the needle gyrations in about March when my flying hours began to pick up.

One other thing I am going to try is a new capacitor.  Lockwood sells an aftermarket 22000MF cap for $35.00 so I figured I may as well try it.  My capacitor is about ten years old with an unknown history so it is possible that is has started to go bad.  I also might try a different ground wire location on the engine.  Perhaps the cylinder head is not an ideal ground location.

Any other  suggestions?

Doug M

CH-701 from scratch

NW Ontario, Canada

Time: 11:10:19 PM PST US

From: "Paul Grimstad" <paul(at)controlapproach.com (paul(at)controlapproach.com)>

Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Erratic voltage output

We have been experiencing wild fluctuations on the amperage meter, running a

912uls with Dynon 180 EFIS engine monitor. The spikes range from +5 to -6.

Voltage is also high (high 13's), but then it seems to settle down after

takeoff. I thought the high voltage maybe because we just installed a new

battery.

We also just installed a new voltage regulator and when we grounded the

plane and took a look at the condition we found the two power leads going

into the regulator were completely melted and the heat was starting to  melt

the plastic mounting socket on the Ducati voltage regulator. We replaced the

spade connectors on the main power leads and replaced the wiring socket

plug-in connector as well. 

We had heard that the Rotax engine electronic system is very sensitive to

the requirement of the ground connection, so additionally we ran a 10ga

copper wire from the base lug on the voltage regulator to the negative

terminal connecting stud at the battery/airframe. This has not solved the

problem. I flew 7hours last weekend and near the end of the flight time, I

noticed the amp gauge still jumping up and down.

I have spoken with several knowledgeable Rotax guys and both asked me if I

ran the ground from the base of the voltage regulator directly to the engine

block?

So, this afternoon I removed the wire socket plug connector and inspected

the wire ends and crimped connectors. There was no sign of heat damage, so  I

reconnected the primary connection plug. I made up another ground wire with

soldered wire ends and waterproof shrink tubing. I then installed the new

ground wire from the mounting bolt on the base of the voltage regulator

directly to the engine block. Tomorrow I will run the engine and see if the

problem is solved.

Hope this helps, I will let you know how it goes.

Paul Grimstad,

Team RV12

Portland, OR      

 [quote][b]

ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:53 am Post subject: Erratic voltage output

Hi! Doug.

For my experience certainly take the plug and socket  to the regulator

apart (no matter what type)and inspect the spade connectors and the nylon

shrouds .

I found mine had a bad connecting spade which had created so much heat the

plastic/nylon plug and socket had welded together and started turning to

carbon which must have been near to causing a fire.  The plug, socket and

females are mostly of  "Durite" name and part No.0-011-06 ( Six way Nylon)

Made by Gordon Equipments Ltd . for UK users.  An example of cheep kit doing

a lousy job if ever there was one! 

Regards

Bob Harrison Europa 914 Rotax.



--

Paul Grimstad

Joined: 25 Sep 2012
Posts: 10

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:02 am Post subject: Erratic voltage output

Bob & Others,Â 

I could not agree more, with your comment about lousy connection design.

By all means check those connections.Â 

Update on the installation of a 10ga. ground wire. Â IÂ think the grounding wire back to the engine block has solved the erratic amp meter issue. Â I warmed up the 912uls and ran the rpm's to 4k. It no longer spikes into negative range. I did not fly, so there's still some room for concern on long hot runs, but it appears that a zero resistance bonded ground from the voltage regulator to the engine block is a must.

Good luck and safe flying.Â 

Paul


-------- Original message --------

From: Bob Harrison <ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net> 

Date: 06/17/2013  9:52 AM  (GMT-08:00) 

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com 

Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Erratic voltage output 

 



Hi! Doug.

For my experience certainly take the plug and socketÂ  to the regulator

apart (no matter what type)and inspect the spade connectors and the nylon

shrouds .

I found mine had a bad connecting spade which had created so much heat the

plastic/nylon plug and socket had welded together and started turning to

carbon which must have been near to causing a fire.Â  The plug, socket and

females are mostly ofÂ  "Durite" name and part No.0-011-06 ( Six way Nylon)

Made by Gordon Equipments Ltd . for UK users.Â  An example of cheep kit doing

a lousy job if ever there was one! 

Regards

Bob Harrison Europa 914 Rotax.


--

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:00 pm Post subject: Erratic voltage output

Doug:



You explained only half of the wiring system.  Here are some basic rules for the Capacitor (CAP):

 You want to vibration dampen the mounting of the capacitor; Vibration damages the capacitor
You want to mount the Cap Up-Side Down - This keeps dirt, oil and water from building on the top which can short out the terminals (High Resistance Short) but remember high resistance means almost nothing to the voltage buildup/stored in the cap. 
You want a tantalum electrolytic capacitor 
You want to keep the capacitor close to the voltage regulator (ACU)  (Alternator Control Unit), keeping the leads SHORT. 
You want to keep the leads short - That means both the positive and negative leads. 
Now, when you say "Firewall Buss" and associate it with the Ground - I'm guessing here you are saying that you have a junction block for BOTH the Positive and Negative (Ground).  Well that is good and is acceptable. But, is the Firewall grounded to the junction block? You should have two (2) ground points one to port and starboard on the firewall, usually near the engine mounts.  

 





When you say you are using the Cylinder as a Ground point - - That is very questionable.  Pick a stud on the engine BLOCK.  There is too much vibration, heat and expansion & contraction for that to be a good grounding point.  Use TWO (2) points on the engine for ground points.  Run each to the port and starboard sides of the firewall.  Make sure the engine is grounded to the engine mount.  TAKE RESISTANCE READINGS.  All the readings should be ZERO (0) ohms.  NONE of your wire runs are long enough to have any circuit resistance.  If you do then your wires, harness, lugs, crimps or connections are BAD.  There is no getting around this - You MUST take resistance readings at the LOWEST scale available on the BEST ohm meter you can borrow.  Check out every single wire length and then to ground to find any problems.

 



You mention a junction block at the battery which is located behind passenger the seat.  Are you using Internal Star Washers on ALL these connections?  Not split ring washers.  Here also check your Resistance.

 



Are all stacked ring lugs - Stacked in the Locking Direction and topped off with a internal star washer?

 



You are speaking of corrosion and oxidation as two different things - They are NOT!  The smallest amount of "contamination" will cause resistance and that will cause current drops.  Current drops cause voltage fluctuation.

 



After you get done with all the cleaning and resistance checks and re-assembly - You should coat the terminals. You can coat them with chromate paint, primer paint, top coat paint, dielectric grease (good in many areas but will collect dirt & dust).  This works as a corrosion protection and as witness marks.

 



Now for the bad news - I'm learning about Rotax engines and I do not think your problem is external [except for the ground point on the cylinder - change that].  I'm thinking more to the engine and the internal setup and workings of the alternator/generator.  Not easy access.

 Address each of the areas as mentioned and get back to us.  It is NOT a difficult problem.  It is just difficult to address via emails.



Barry

 On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 7:07 AM, MacDonald Doug <dougsnash(at)yahoo.com (dougsnash(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

[quote] So, my troubleshooting saga continues.  The first thing I did was run an 18ga ground wire from the regulator body to the negative terminal of the capacitor which then goes to the firewall buss bar.  When this did not solve the erratic output issue I replaced the regulator.  Neither of these steps helped the problem.  

  

My engine ground lead is an 8ga wire running from a lug on the top of the right rear cylinder to the ground lead on the firewall buss.  From the firewall buss, both the positive and negative leads are 8ga wire and go to my main buss which is mounted behind the instrument panel.  From the main buss the positive and negative leads are 8ga and run down the passenger side of the airframe to the battery which is located behind the  passenger seat.  At the battery the ground wire attaches to an airframe ground point on the battery mount frame then through an 8ga wire to the negative post.  The positive lead goes to the master solenoid and then to the positive post of the battery (all 8ga).  As per Roger's suggestion, I have been pulling each of these main power leads one terminal at a time and thoroughly cleaning the connections.  So far I have gotten to the main buss and firewall buss but still need to clean the connections at the battery.  While I have found some oxidization, I have thus far found no corrosion which could be causing my erratic output issue.

  

Today after work I will pull the belly pan off of the plane and clean all of the connections at the battery.  I also want to pull the connections of the charge lead from the voltage regulator to the ALT circuit breaker and main buss to  verify they are okay.  So far , however, I'm not seeing anything that could be the source of my problem.  My CH-701 is almost three years old and has just shy of 200 hours on it.  This voltage issue is has come on gradually over the last few months as the output has been stable until I noticed the needle gyrations in about March when my flying hours began to pick up.

  

One other thing I am going to try is a new capacitor.  Lockwood sells an aftermarket 22000MF cap for $35.00 so I figured I may as well try it.  My capacitor is about ten years old with an unknown history so it is possible that is has started to go bad.  I also might try a different ground wire location on the engine.  Perhaps the cylinder head is not an ideal ground location.

  

Any other  suggestions?

 

Doug M

CH-701 from scratch

NW Ontario, Canada



Time: 11:10:19 PM PST US

From: "Paul Grimstad" <paul(at)controlapproach.com (paul(at)controlapproach.com)>

 Subject: RE: Erratic voltage output



We have been experiencing wild fluctuations on the amperage meter, running a

912uls with Dynon 180 EFIS engine monitor. The spikes range from +5 to -6.

Voltage is also high (high 13's), but then it seems to settle down after

 takeoff. I thought the high voltage maybe because we just installed a new

battery.



We also just installed a new voltage regulator and when we grounded the

plane and took a look at the condition we found the two power leads going

 into the regulator were completely melted and the heat was starting to  melt

the plastic mounting socket on the Ducati voltage regulator. We replaced the

spade connectors on the main power leads and replaced the wiring socket

plug-in connector as well. 



We had heard that the Rotax engine electronic system is very sensitive to

 the requirement of the ground connection, so additionally we ran a 10ga

copper wire from the base lug on the voltage regulator to the negative

terminal connecting stud at the battery/airframe. This has not solved the

 problem. I flew 7hours last weekend and near the end of the flight time, I

noticed the amp gauge still jumping up and down.



I have spoken with several knowledgeable Rotax guys and both asked me if I

ran the ground from the base of the voltage regulator directly to the engine

 block?



So, this afternoon I removed the wire socket plug connector and inspected

the wire ends and crimped connectors. There was no sign of heat damage, so  I

reconnected the primary connection plug. I made up another ground wire with

soldered wire ends and waterproof shrink tubing. I then installed the new

ground wire from the mounting bolt on the base of the voltage regulator

 directly to the engine block. Tomorrow I will run the engine and see if the

problem is solved.



Hope this helps, I will let you know how it goes.



Paul Grimstad,



Team RV12



Portland, OR      

 



    

  	  Quote: 	
		  



ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:32 am Post subject: Erratic voltage output

Paul:



I just read your post and something caught my eye:   "I made up another ground wire with soldered wire ends and waterproof shrink tubing."

 



You should NOT solder the wire ends.  You should ONLY CRIMP them.  Soldering creates what is know as a HARDPOINT and causes the wire to fail due to vibration, right at the END point of the solder to wire connection.

 



Now, to contradict what I just said:  I have a method of soldering that is Perfectly Acceptable. The steps are:

 Clean the wire
CRIMP on the lug
Using SILVER SOLDER - Solder ONLY - ONLY - ONLY - The END of the wire next to the ring lug.  DO NOT keep the heat on the wire for a long time.  Only enough time to get a flow of solder between the wire and the lug.  If you apply too much heat and too much time the solder will WICK down the wire and create a HARDPOINT.   
By doing it my way you create a GREAT Mechanical and Electrical connection.
After soldering the connection CLEAN the connection with alcohol to remove any flux. 
I have been doing this for years and NEVER had a failure either mechanically or electrically.ALSO:

Do NOT use SPADE crimp on connectors.  Use RING crimp on connectors. 
Why?  #1 they are NOT approved via AC 43-13.  #2 They have a built in design failure point... the SPADE! ALSO #2:



Your statement: "so additionally we ran a 10ga copper wire from the base lug on the voltage regulator to the negative terminal connecting stud at the battery/airframe. "  You also have to run that SAME wire to the airframe [Airframe Ground]. 
Do not rely on a single ground point to do everything.I just posted an in depth How To with Explanations.  Take the time to read and understand what I wrote.  If you have questions PLEASE post them, I will be happy to explain.

 



Barry



 



On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 2:09 AM, Paul Grimstad <paul(at)controlapproach.com (paul(at)controlapproach.com)> wrote:

[quote] 

We have been experiencing wild fluctuations on the amperage meter, running a 912uls with Dynon 180 EFIS engine monitor. The spikes range from +5 to -6. Voltage is also high (high 13’s), but then it seems to settle down after takeoff. I thought the high voltage maybe because we just installed a new battery. 

We also just installed a new voltage regulator and when we grounded the plane and took a look at the condition we found the two power leads going into the regulator were completely melted and the heat was starting to melt the plastic mounting socket on the Ducati voltage regulator. We replaced the spade connectors on the main power leads and replaced the wiring socket plug-in connector as well.  

We had heard that the Rotax engine electronic system is very sensitive to the requirement of the ground connection, so additionally we ran a 10ga copper wire from the base lug on the voltage regulator to the negative terminal connecting stud at the battery/airframe. This has not solved the problem. I flew 7hours last weekend and near the end of the flight time, I noticed the amp gauge still jumping up and down. 

I have spoken with several knowledgeable Rotax guys and both asked me if I ran the ground from the base of the voltage regulator directly to the engine block? 

So, this afternoon I removed the wire socket plug connector and inspected the wire ends and crimped connectors. There was no sign of heat damage, so I reconnected the primary connection plug. I made up another ground wire with soldered wire ends and waterproof shrink tubing. I then installed the new ground wire from the mounting bolt on the base of the voltage regulator directly to the engine block. Tomorrow I will run the engine and see if the problem is solved. 

Hope this helps, I will let you know how it goes.

Paul Grimstad, 

Team RV12

Portland, OR       

  

From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Carl

 Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 1:25 PM

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Erratic voltage output 

 

Hi Doug



 You stated you have no loose contacts, you could have a poor contact.  Two years ago I had an intermittent charging problem that took two day to trace. It was in an in-line fuse holder, the rubber coated ones that take ATC fuses. The fuse looked fairly normal but when I cut the holder open it was corroded and burnt. Replaced problem gone. 



Carl

[quote] 

---

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:21 am Post subject: Erratic voltage output

Greetings Paul, 

             

             If you want GOOD advice and                 information on all things aviation electrical/electronic,                       check out aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com), right here on Matt's server.

                         

                         No affiliation, just a long time subscriber.

                               	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
       On 06/19/2013 11:32 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:

     

     [quote]                Paul:              

       

       I just read your post and something caught my eye:   "I           made up another ground wire with soldered wire ends and           waterproof shrink tubing."

       

         

       You should NOT           solder the wire ends.  You should ONLY CRIMP them.  Soldering           creates what is know as a HARDPOINT and causes the wire to           fail due to vibration, right at the END point of the solder to           wire connection.

       

         

       Now, to contradict what I just           said:  I have a method of soldering that is Perfectly           Acceptable. The steps are:

                           Clean the wire           
CRIMP on the lug           
Using SILVER SOLDER -               Solder ONLY - ONLY - ONLY - The END of the wire next to               the ring lug.  DO NOT keep the heat on the wire for a long               time.  Only enough time to get a flow of solder between               the wire and the lug.  If you apply too much heat and too               much time the solder will WICK down the wire and create a               HARDPOINT.             
By doing it my way you               create a GREAT Mechanical and Electrical connection.           
After soldering the               connection CLEAN the connection with alcohol to remove any               flux.           
I have been doing this for               years and NEVER had a failure either mechanically or               electrically.                                          ALSO:

                                             Do NOT use SPADE crimp on connectors.  Use RING                   crimp on connectors.                 
Why?  #1 they are NOT approved via AC 43-13.  #2                   They have a built in design failure point... the                   SPADE!                               ALSO #2:

             

                                             Your statement: "so                     additionally we ran a 10ga copper wire from the base                     lug on the voltage regulator to the negative                     terminal connecting stud at the battery/airframe. "                      You                     also have to run that SAME wire to the airframe                     [Airframe Ground].                 
Do not                     rely on a single ground point to do everything.                              I just posted an in                   depth How To with Explanations.  Take the time to read                   and understand what I wrote.  If you have questions                   PLEASE post them, I will be happy to explain.

             

                            

Barry             

           

           

           

           On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 2:09 AM, Paul             Grimstad <paul(at)controlapproach.com (paul(at)controlapproach.com)>             wrote:

              	  Quote: 	
		                                                     

We                       have been experiencing wild fluctuations on the                       amperage meter, running a 912uls with Dynon 180                       EFIS engine monitor. The spikes range from +5 to                       -6. Voltage is also high (high 13’s), but then it                       seems to settle down after takeoff. I thought the                       high voltage maybe because we just installed a new                       battery.                   

We                       also just installed a new voltage regulator and                       when we grounded the plane and took a look at the                       condition we found the two power leads going into                       the regulator were completely melted and the heat                       was starting to melt the plastic mounting socket                       on the Ducati voltage regulator. We replaced the                       spade connectors on the main power leads and                       replaced the wiring socket plug-in connector as                       well.                    

We                       had heard that the Rotax engine electronic system                       is very sensitive to the requirement of the ground                       connection, so additionally we ran a 10ga copper                       wire from the base lug on the voltage regulator to                       the negative terminal connecting stud at the                       battery/airframe. This has not solved the problem.                       I flew 7hours last weekend and near the end of the                       flight time, I noticed the amp gauge still jumping                       up and down.                   

I                       have spoken with several knowledgeable Rotax guys                       and both asked me if I ran the ground from the                       base of the voltage regulator directly to the                       engine block?                   

So,                       this afternoon I removed the wire socket plug                       connector and inspected the wire ends and crimped                       connectors. There was no sign of heat damage, so I                       reconnected the primary connection plug. I made up                       another ground wire with soldered wire ends and                       waterproof shrink tubing. I then installed the new                       ground wire from the mounting bolt on the base of                       the voltage regulator directly to the engine                       block. Tomorrow I will run the engine and see if                       the problem is solved.                   

Hope                       this helps, I will let you know how it goes.                   

Paul                       Grimstad,                   

Team                       RV12                   

Portland,                       OR                         

                                                                

From:                           owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)                           [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)]                           On Behalf Of Carl

                           Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 1:25 PM

                           To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)

                           Subject: Re: Erratic                           voltage output                     

                   

                   

                                         

Hi                         Doug                   

                                        

                       You                         stated you have no loose contacts, you could                         have a poor contact.  Two years ago I had                         an intermittent charging problem that took two                         day to trace. It was in an in-line fuse holder,                         the rubber coated ones that take ATC fuses. The                         fuse looked fairly normal but when I cut the                         holder open it was corroded and burnt. Replaced                         problem gone.                   

                                        

Carl                   

                    	  Quote: 	
		                                              

-----                           Original Message -----                      

                                            

                         From:                           MacDonald                             Doug (dougsnash(at)yahoo.com)                      

                                            

To:                           rotax list (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)                      

                                            

Sent:                           Friday, June 14, 2013 10:44 AM                     

                                            

Subject:                           Erratic voltage output                     

                                            

                      

                                            

I'm                           having an erratic voltage output problem on my                           912UL powered CH-701.  

                           

                           To try and fix the problem I have replaced the                           voltage regulator and verified I have no loose                           connections in the electrical system.  Even                           with a new regulator I am still getting the                           same voltage spikes when at full power.  At                           idle and during run-up the voltage reading on                           my analog VDO voltmeter is rock solid.  It                           indicates about 14 volts once up off of idle                           power and my digital voltmeter show about 13.6                           Volts.  Once I apply takeoff power the analog                           voltmeter needle starts to vibrate wildly plus                           and minus about 1-2 volts and the digital                           voltmeter becomes unstable.  If I am flying                           with a light electrical load, the digital                           voltmeter tops out at just over 14 volts but                           drifts around as low as 13.7.  If I put on my                           nav and strobe lights the voltage drops to                           13.3-13.6 range but the needle on the analog                           meter continues to vibrate the same.

                           

                           The only other components (beside the                           regulator) in the electrical system I can                           think of which might be causing the voltage                           spikes are the capacitor or a problem with the                           actual alternator coils.  I thought the                           problem may have been a bad analog gauge but                           given that the digital readings are also                           erratic I believe it to be a legitimate issue                           and not simply a display problem.

                           

                           I'm pretty good at chasing electrons but this                           issue has me stumped.  Anyone have any ideas                           what could be causing my erratic voltage                           output?

                           

                           Doug MacDonald

                           CH-701, Northwestern Ontario                                                

                        

                     

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5     [b]

Paul Grimstad

Joined: 25 Sep 2012
Posts: 10

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:08 pm Post subject: Erratic voltage output

Thanks for the points.  I agree.



I did not directly solder the connection. I used "no crimp" terminal hubs designed for ground wires. I presume they make these because of the corrosion issues commonly found on ground leads. The treminals are preloaded with low melt temp solder and jacketed with heavy guage shrink tube. They completely assemble with a heat gun not a soldering iron. As the terminal ends are heated you can observe the solder turn to liquid and the semi-clear shrink tube has an adhesive that liquifies and seals to the wire insulation. A bit spendy, but I think their the way to go.

I had know idea that grounding was such a big deal. Hopefully the problem is solved. 

Paul



-------- Original message --------

From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> 

Date: 06/19/2013  9:32 AM  (GMT-08:00) 

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com 

Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Erratic voltage output 

 



Paul:



I just read your post and something caught my eye:   "I made up another ground wire with soldered wire ends and waterproof shrink tubing."

 



You should NOT solder the wire ends.  You should ONLY CRIMP them.  Soldering creates what is know as a HARDPOINT and causes the wire to fail due to vibration, right at the END point of the solder to wire connection.

 



Now, to contradict what I just said:  I have a method of soldering that is Perfectly Acceptable. The steps are:

 Clean the wire
CRIMP on the lug
Using SILVER SOLDER - Solder ONLY - ONLY - ONLY - The END of the wire next to the ring lug.  DO NOT keep the heat on the wire for a long time.  Only enough time to get a flow of solder between the wire and the lug.  If you apply too much heat and too much time the solder will WICK down the wire and create a HARDPOINT.   
By doing it my way you create a GREAT Mechanical and Electrical connection.
After soldering the connection CLEAN the connection with alcohol to remove any flux. 
I have been doing this for years and NEVER had a failure either mechanically or electrically.ALSO:

Do NOT use SPADE crimp on connectors.  Use RING crimp on connectors. 
Why?  #1 they are NOT approved via AC 43-13.  #2 They have a built in design failure point... the SPADE! ALSO #2:



Your statement: "so additionally we ran a 10ga copper wire from the base lug on the voltage regulator to the negative terminal connecting stud at the battery/airframe. "  You also have to run that SAME wire to the airframe [Airframe Ground]. 
Do not rely on a single ground point to do everything.I just posted an in depth How To with Explanations.  Take the time to read and understand what I wrote.  If you have questions PLEASE post them, I will be happy to explain.

 



Barry



 



On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 2:09 AM, Paul Grimstad <paul(at)controlapproach.com (paul(at)controlapproach.com)> wrote:

[quote] 

We have been experiencing wild fluctuations on the amperage meter, running a 912uls with Dynon 180 EFIS engine monitor. The spikes range from +5 to -6. Voltage is also high (high 13â€™s), but then it seems to settle down after takeoff. I thought the high voltage maybe because we just installed a new battery. 

We also just installed a new voltage regulator and when we grounded the plane and took a look at the condition we found the two power leads going into the regulator were completely melted and the heat was starting to melt the plastic mounting socket on the Ducati voltage regulator. We replaced the spade connectors on the main power leads and replaced the wiring socket plug-in connector as well.  

We had heard that the Rotax engine electronic system is very sensitive to the requirement of the ground connection, so additionally we ran a 10ga copper wire from the base lug on the voltage regulator to the negative terminal connecting stud at the battery/airframe. This has not solved the problem. I flew 7hours last weekend and near the end of the flight time, I noticed the amp gauge still jumping up and down. 

I have spoken with several knowledgeable Rotax guys and both asked me if I ran the ground from the base of the voltage regulator directly to the engine block? 

So, this afternoon I removed the wire socket plug connector and inspected the wire ends and crimped connectors. There was no sign of heat damage, so I reconnected the primary connection plug. I made up another ground wire with soldered wire ends and waterproof shrink tubing. I then installed the new ground wire from the mounting bolt on the base of the voltage regulator directly to the engine block. Tomorrow I will run the engine and see if the problem is solved. 

Hope this helps, I will let you know how it goes.

Paul Grimstad, 

Team RV12

Portland, OR       

  

From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Carl

 Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 1:25 PM

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Erratic voltage output 

 

Hi Doug



 You stated you have no loose contacts, you could have a poor contact.  Two years ago I had an intermittent charging problem that took two day to trace. It was in an in-line fuse holder, the rubber coated ones that take ATC fuses. The fuse looked fairly normal but when I cut the holder open it was corroded and burnt. Replaced problem gone. 



Carl

[quote] 

---

dougsnash

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:08 am Post subject: Erratic voltage output

I Finally found the source of my erratic voltage readings.  After going through my entire charging circuit from regulator/engine through to the battery and verifying there were no poor connection, I tried replacing the VDO voltmeter.  Sure enough, the replacement meter is rock solid through all phases of flight.  I am still seeing a 0.3VDC swing on the digital meter but I am not overly worried about it.  I'm not sure what the problem with the old VDO voltmeter was but a friend had an identical surplus voltmeter for his project.



I like it when problems have simple solutions.  Besides it was a good excuse to go through and clean up all of my  electrical connections and install star washers on them.

Thanks all for the guidance.

Doug M

CH-701, NW Ontario, Canada

 [quote][b]

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Erratic voltage output

That VDO .3VDC swing is normal. I wouldn't worry about it.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

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