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bbradburry(at)bellsouth.n
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 Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:47 am Post subject: Battery fail question |
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A couple of weeks ago the battery suddenly failed in my ’09 Toyota.
The starter had never given any indication that the battery was getting weak. I drove up to a business just before 5:00 pm, shut off the car, got out and tried the door on the business…locked! They closed a few minutes early. Got back in the car and everything was dead. The panel would not light up. The starter would not click. The door locks would not work! (good thing I had not locked them when I went to the door!)
I called my neighbor and he tried to jump the car with jumper cables. The starter would not turn it past the compression stroke while on the jumper cables. (My neighbor had heard that it was dangerous to have his car running while jumping off another car, so we were on his battery only. I have never heard of this problem, but that is another question.)
I removed the battery, exchanged it for a new one, and the car started and ran fine. No apparent charging problems after several thousand miles.
Does anyone know what might have happened to my old battery to cause this sudden failure?
Bill
[quote][b]
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bobnoffs
Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 132
Location: northern wi.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:59 am Post subject: Battery fail question |
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my wild guess is that a part of the battery broke loose and shorted out a cell on the inside.
about the same thing on my second car right now.battery was 12 yrs old though so no complaints.
bob noffs
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 7:46 AM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net (bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote]
A couple of weeks ago the battery suddenly failed in my ’09 Toyota.
The starter had never given any indication that the battery was getting weak. I drove up to a business just before 5:00 pm, shut off the car, got out and tried the door on the business…locked! They closed a few minutes early. Got back in the car and everything was dead. The panel would not light up. The starter would not click. The door locks would not work! (good thing I had not locked them when I went to the door!)
I called my neighbor and he tried to jump the car with jumper cables. The starter would not turn it past the compression stroke while on the jumper cables. (My neighbor had heard that it was dangerous to have his car running while jumping off another car, so we were on his battery only. I have never heard of this problem, but that is another question.)
I removed the battery, exchanged it for a new one, and the car started and ran fine. No apparent charging problems after several thousand miles.
Does anyone know what might have happened to my old battery to cause this sudden failure?
Bill
| Quote: |
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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Bob McC
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:26 am Post subject: Battery fail question |
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Bill;
Most likely a broken inter-cell connection causing an open circuit within the battery. (vibration induced) For at least the latter part of that last trip you were probably operating alternator only and when you shut down you had “nothing”. Not turning past compression stroke situation is a poor (high resistance) connection or poor quality small AWG booster cables. (same high resistance problem) The typical booster cables sold today are too small to be of much use. If you look at the cables carried by tow trucks they are usually at least #2 if not even #1 or #0. Parts store cables are often as small as #8 or even #10.
Bob McC
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 8:47 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Battery fail question
A couple of weeks ago the battery suddenly failed in my ’09 Toyota.
The starter had never given any indication that the battery was getting weak. I drove up to a business just before 5:00 pm, shut off the car, got out and tried the door on the business…locked! They closed a few minutes early. Got back in the car and everything was dead. The panel would not light up. The starter would not click. The door locks would not work! (good thing I had not locked them when I went to the door!)
I called my neighbor and he tried to jump the car with jumper cables. The starter would not turn it past the compression stroke while on the jumper cables. (My neighbor had heard that it was dangerous to have his car running while jumping off another car, so we were on his battery only. I have never heard of this problem, but that is another question.)
I removed the battery, exchanged it for a new one, and the car started and ran fine. No apparent charging problems after several thousand miles.
Does anyone know what might have happened to my old battery to cause this sudden failure?
Bill | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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Bob McC
Falco #908
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bbradburry(at)bellsouth.n
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:29 am Post subject: Battery fail question |
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I left out the fact that the battery tested to have 8 volts when I took it to the store to get a new battery. That would go along with your theory of a broken internal connection I would suppose?
What about the idea of not jumping starting a car with your own engine running? I have done this all my life and have never heard of this being a problem?? What could happen??
Bill
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob McCallum
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 10:26 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Battery fail question
Bill;
Most likely a broken inter-cell connection causing an open circuit within the battery. (vibration induced) For at least the latter part of that last trip you were probably operating alternator only and when you shut down you had “nothing”. Not turning past compression stroke situation is a poor (high resistance) connection or poor quality small AWG booster cables. (same high resistance problem) The typical booster cables sold today are too small to be of much use. If you look at the cables carried by tow trucks they are usually at least #2 if not even #1 or #0. Parts store cables are often as small as #8 or even #10.
Bob McC
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 8:47 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Battery fail question
A couple of weeks ago the battery suddenly failed in my ’09 Toyota.
The starter had never given any indication that the battery was getting weak. I drove up to a business just before 5:00 pm, shut off the car, got out and tried the door on the business…locked! They closed a few minutes early. Got back in the car and everything was dead. The panel would not light up. The starter would not click. The door locks would not work! (good thing I had not locked them when I went to the door!)
I called my neighbor and he tried to jump the car with jumper cables. The starter would not turn it past the compression stroke while on the jumper cables. (My neighbor had heard that it was dangerous to have his car running while jumping off another car, so we were on his battery only. I have never heard of this problem, but that is another question.)
I removed the battery, exchanged it for a new one, and the car started and ran fine. No apparent charging problems after several thousand miles.
Does anyone know what might have happened to my old battery to cause this sudden failure?
Bill | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
| Quote: | | http://forums.matronics.com |
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
[quote][b]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:36 am Post subject: Battery fail question |
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At 10:16 AM 6/23/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: | | I left out the fact that the battery tested to have 8 volts when I took it to the store to get a new battery. |
Aha . . . perhaps it was a 4-cell battery . . .
i've seen single-cell shorts take a tired
battery down to 10 . . . but two cells at
the same time.
| Quote: | | That would go along with your theory of a broken internal connection I would suppose? |
A broken connection would get you a zero-volts
battery . . .
| Quote: | What about the idea of not jumping starting a car with your own engine running?
I have done this all my life and have never heard of this being a problem??
What could happen?? |
Not much. If I'm jumpering to a dead battery
that is otherwise a good battery, I'll leave
the car running and let the jump-car alternator
charge the dead battery for a few minutes. This
greatly improves cranking with the jump.
I don't know where that 'concern' came from. It
may have roots in the world of spikes and other
electronics-killing phenomenon.
How old was this battery? Had it ever suffered
long term discharge?
I had a 4-year old battery take me home from Walmart
one day with no indication of weakness. Got home
and remembered something I still needed. Got back
into car and the battery was unable to crank
the engine. Now, if it had just failed before I
drove out of the Walmart parking lot instead of
after I got home!
Your 8-volt observation could be tire cells,
and/or one or more shorted cells. Only a bench
examination would reveal the whole story.
Bob . . . [quote][b]
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henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:49 am Post subject: Battery fail question |
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Bill,
Can you tell us if the 8V was open circuit or under a battery tester load?
The problem with starting jump starting a car with the alternator running is that you never really know what the load is going to be. For example, if the dead battery is in an "almost shorted" condition, the starting battery might survive but what about the alternator? They're only rated for so many Amperes.
Henador Titzoff
From: Bill Bradburry <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 11:16 AM
Subject: RE: Battery fail question
I left out the fact that the battery tested to have 8 volts when I took it to the store to get a new battery. That would go along with your theory of a broken internal connection I would suppose?
What about the idea of not jumping starting a car with your own engine running? I have done this all my life and have never heard of this being a problem?? What could happen??
Bill
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob McCallum
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 10:26 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question
Bill;
Most likely a broken inter-cell connection causing an open circuit within the battery. (vibration induced) For at least the latter part of that last trip you were probably operating alternator only and when you shut down you had “nothing”. Not turning past compression stroke situation is a poor (high resistance) connection or poor quality small AWG booster cables. (same high resistance problem) The typical booster cables sold today are too small to be of much use. If you look at the cables carried by tow trucks they are usually at least #2 if not even #1 or #0. Parts store cables are often as small as #8 or even #10.
Bob McC
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 8:47 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question
A couple of weeks ago the battery suddenly failed in my ’09 Toyota .
The starter had never given any indication that the battery was getting weak. I drove up to a business just before 5:00 pm, shut off the car, got out and tried the door on the business…locked! They closed a few minutes early. Got back in the car and everything was dead. The panel would not light up. The starter would not click. The door locks would not work! (good thing I had not locked them when I went to the door!)
I called my neighbor and he tried to jump the car with jumper cables. The starter would not turn it past the compression stroke while on the jumper cables. (My neighbor had heard that it was dangerous to have his car running while jumping off another car, so we were on his battery only. I have never heard of this problem, but that is another question.)
I removed the battery, exchanged it for a new one, and the car started and ran fine. No apparent charging problems after several thousand miles.
Does anyone know what might have happened to my old battery to cause this sudden failure?
Bill
[quote] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Ae="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.c-> [b]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:57 am Post subject: Battery fail question |
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At 11:49 AM 6/23/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: | Bill,
Can you tell us if the 8V was open circuit or under a battery tester load?
The problem with starting jump starting a car with the alternator running is that you never really know what the load is going to be. For example, if the dead battery is in an "almost shorted" condition, the starting battery might survive but what about the alternator? They're only rated for so many Amperes. |
Generally speaking, you cannot damage an alternator
from electrical overload. They are internally limited
as to how much current they will deliver. The thing
that kills alternators under heavy load is lack of
cooling . . . not delivery of current much above
the nameplate rating.
[quote] Bob . . .[/b] [quote][b]
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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:28 am Post subject: Battery fail question |
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Greetings,
I had an experience in the early 90's where the damage to the alternator on the car being jumped was attributed to the jumping car having it's engine running. It was a late 80's Ford. The Ford dealer's mechanic gave the reason, obviously without much discussion of the physics behind the event :>). I vaguely recall something about regulator frequencies on the 2 vehicles being in conflict.
It was a long time ago, so take the story for what it's worth.
| Quote: | Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine |
On 06/23/2013 11:35 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
SNIP
| Quote: |
| Quote: | What about the idea of not jumping starting a car with your own engine running?
I have done this all my life and have never heard of this being a problem??
What could happen?? |
Not much. If I'm jumpering to a dead battery
that is otherwise a good battery, I'll leave
the car running and let the jump-car alternator
charge the dead battery for a few minutes. This
greatly improves cranking with the jump.
I don't know where that 'concern' came from. It
may have roots in the world of spikes and other
electronics-killing phenomenon.
|
SNIP
[quote][b]
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skywagon
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 184
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:43 am Post subject: Battery fail question |
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Bill,
I have had the same thing happen a time or two....
One time it was the battery post "clamp" had fractured. It was still on the post and looked normal but, the fracture opened the post to clamp and large current could not pass. A new battery cable solved that problem. However, you proved that was not the problem via the new battery working normally.
Other failures....if the battery is heavily sulphated (sludge buildup on the cell bottom) it can short out a cell or more. Internally, it is no longer an electron generator but, just a poor quality connection inside the battery. Cells can open too. I am not sure how this happens. Where the actual "break" occurs.
About jump cables....too my knowledge it is still best to have the "source" auto (idle) running when jumping the "load" car (the dead one). It is also best, if time allows to let the jump charging to continue for some minutes (15 min. ) before trying to start the dead car. This gives some relief for all the components in the charging loop. The other new problem is that a lot of charging cables/clamps are much too wimpy. Always use a heavy duty (old fashion type) set for jumping.
If you are forced to use a wimpy set, be sure to allow a long charge, at idle rpm, before hitting the start switch on the dead car.
And, as we all should know be very careful of the jump cable attachment steps. Thru an error in connection, etc. I have viewed a dead battery literally blow in half and "that is not a good thing" ( as Rod M. would say...) if someone is leaning over it making the connections....D
[quote] ---
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henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:00 am Post subject: Battery fail question |
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Bob,
I know of semiconductors that were damaged from too much current, and it was heat that killed them. In fact, I know of semiconductors that were damaged by too much heat, only to fail later.
Isn't this the same story here? You crank and crank and crank, and the alternator temperature goes up and damages the rectifier circuit. As an outside power source provider for someone who can't start their engine, I would be concerned about damage to any part of my electrical system. You never know what the other person is going to do, so I would start with just a battery only. If that didn't work, I would try what you said earlier: run the engine and alternator to charge up both batteries for a few minutes, then turn off the engine and let the other person try to start his engine. If that didn't work, I would consider allowing the other person to start his car with my engine running, but she would have to be really good looking! 
Last thing I need is a dead car because of someone else's problem.
Henador Titzoff
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: Battery fail question
At 11:49 AM 6/23/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: | Bill,
Can you tell us if the 8V was open circuit or under a battery tester load?
The problem with starting jump starting a car with the alternator running is that you never really know what the load is going to be. For example, if the dead battery is in an "almost shorted" condition, the starting battery might survive but what about the alternator? They're only rated for so many Amperes. |
Generally speaking, you cannot damage an alternator
from electrical overload. They are internally limited
as to how much current they will deliver. The thing
that kills alternators under heavy load is lack of
cooling . . . not delivery of current much above
the nameplate rating.
[quote] Bob . . .
[b]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:53 am Post subject: Battery fail question |
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| Quote: | Not turning past compression stroke situation is a poor (high resistance) connection or poor quality small AWG booster cables. (same high resistance problem) The typical booster cables sold today are too small to be of much use. If you look at the cables carried by tow trucks they are usually at least #2 if not even #1 or #0. Parts store cables are often as small as #8 or even #10.
Bob McC |
Excellent point. The lighter gage jumpers are battery
booster cables intended to charge a dead battery while
connected to a vehicle with the engine running.
This is just a heavy duty version of your 1.5 amp
battery maintainer that will charge the battery over
a 10 hour period. The #10 jumpers will let you put
enough charge into a dead battery ro probably start
a car after 10-20 minutes.
Of course, #2 or #4 jumpers will let you handily
crank engines.
[quote] Bob . . .[/b] [quote][b]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:58 am Post subject: Battery fail question |
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At 12:28 PM 6/23/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: | Greetings,
I had an experience in the early 90's where the damage to the alternator on the car being jumped was attributed to the jumping car having it's engine running. It was a late 80's Ford. The Ford dealer's mechanic gave the reason, obviously without much discussion of the physics behind the event :>). I vaguely recall something about regulator frequencies on the 2 vehicles being in conflict. |
I'd be willing to bet that the greatest
risk to the vehicle with the dead battery
is reversed polarity. The dead battery will
offer no significant resistance to the
reversed polarity. A reversal of about
three volts will drive the alternator's
diodes into very hard conduction at what
ever current level the rescue vehicle's
battery will deliver . . . certainly many
hundreds if not over 1000 amps.
This risk would exist whether or not the
rescue vehicle's alternator were running.
Bob . . . [quote][b]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:15 am Post subject: Battery fail question |
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From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Battery fail question
To: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>
Bob,
I know of semiconductors that were damaged from too much current, and
it was heat that killed them. In fact, I know of semiconductors that
were damaged by too much heat, only to fail later.
Inadequately cooled for the task
at hand?
Isn't this the same story here? You crank and crank and crank, and
the alternator temperature goes up and damages the rectifier circuit.
Alternators are inherently current limited.
Unlike generators, the alternator's magnetics
keeps it from delivering more than 10-20% over
nameplate at any load. Alternators are rated
for worst case (hot) conditions. As discussed
some years ago, the 60A breaker on tens of thousands
of Cessna alternator b-leads is DESIGNED to nuisance
trip. A cold 60A alternator will put out 70A or
more until it warms up.
Turn a 60A alternator into a discharged battery
on a cold morning an your risk of popping the 60A
b-lead breaker is higher . . . but you can't
get much more than 70A which falls off as the
alternator warms up.
If the system integrators INTEND that an as-installed
alternator be capable of full rated output at max
operating temperature, then those same integrators
will also have provided cooling . . . to make sure
that perfectly ordinary temperature rise does not
prevent the alternator from working as advertised.
As an outside power source provider for someone who can't start
their engine, I would be concerned about damage to any part of my
electrical system. You never know what the other person is going to
do, so I would start with just a battery only. If that didn't work,
I would try what you said earlier: run the engine and alternator to
charge up both batteries for a few minutes, then turn off the engine
and let the other person try to start his engine. If that didn't
work, I would consider allowing the other person to start his car
with my engine running, but she would have to be really good looking!
Last thing I need is a dead car because of someone else's problem.
Okay, let's reverse engineer the feared failure.
Exactly what components are vulnerable and what
sources and magnitude of abuse puts them at risk?
Finally how does that source come into existence
because we've jumpered two systems together?
My point is that we WORRY based on lots of hangar
tales and things we don't understand. As I have
suggested over a long history of reading, analyzing
and harvesting good data from the classic 'dark-n-
stormy-night stories, most cause-and-effect analysis
by the authors is flawed.
If you gave me an airplane (or automobile) and
challenged me to 'make it vulnerable' to a
battery jumping procedure, I wouldn't know where
to start . . . I'm aware of no such components.
Bob . . .
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henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:08 pm Post subject: Battery fail question |
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Good points, Bob. You've done the homework to determine that there are no extreme currents causing thermal problems in vehicle and aircraft alternators. I'll accept that!
Henador Titzoff
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Battery fail question
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com (henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com)>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery fail question
To: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)" <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)>
Bob,
I know of semiconductors that were damaged from too much current, and
it was heat that killed them. In fact, I know of semiconductors that
were damaged by too much heat, only to fail later.
Inadequately cooled for the task
at hand?
Isn't this the same story here? You crank and crank and crank, and
the alternator temperature goes up and damages the rectifier circuit.
Alternators are inherently current limited.
Unlike generators, the alternator's magnetics
keeps it from delivering more than 10-20% over
nameplate at any load. Alternators are rated
for worst case (hot) conditions. As discussed
some years ago, the 60A breaker on tens of thousands
of Cessna alternator b-leads is DESIGNED to nuisance
trip. A cold 60A alternator will put out 70A or
more until it warms up.
Turn a 60A alternator into a discharged battery
on a cold morning an your risk of popping the 60A
b-lead breaker is higher . . . but you can't
get much more than 70A which falls off as the
alternator warms up.
If the system integrators INTEND that an as-installed
alternator be capable of full rated output at max
operating temperature, then those same integrators
will also have provided cooling . . . to make sure
that perfectly ordinary temperature rise does not
prevent the alternator from working as advertised.
As an outside power source provider for someone who can't start
their engine, I would be concerned about damage to any part of my
electrical system. You never know what the other person is going to
do, so I would start with just a battery only. If that didn't work,
I would try what you said earlier: run the engine and alternator to
charge up both batteries for a few minutes, then turn off the engine
and let the other person try to start his engine. If that didn't
work, I would consider allowing the other person to start his car
with my engine running, but she would have to be really good looking!
Last thing I need is a dead car because of someone else's problem.
Okay, let's reverse engineer the feared failure.
Exactly what components are vulnerable and what
sources and magnitude of abuse puts them at risk?
Finally how does that source come into existence
because we've jumpered two systems together?
My point is that we WORRY based on lots of hangar
tales and things we don't understand. As I have
suggested over a long history of reading, analyzing
and harvesting good data from the classic 'dark-n-
stormy-night stories, most cause-and-effect analysis
by the authors is flawed.
If you gave me an airplane (or automobile) and
challenged me to 'make it vulnerable' to a
battery jumping procedure, I wouldn't know where
to start . . . I'm aware of -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric- --> http://f= - List Contribution Web Site -Matt Dralle, List =========
[quote][b]
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racerjerry
Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Battery fail question |
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Minor corrosion at a battery terminal can cause the identical symptoms.
In a car, one of the first troubleshooting steps is to turn on the headlights. Often they will light up, but turning the key to start makes the headlights go out and stay out even after the key is released; they will not light up again until you jiggle a cable. In this case, suspect corrosion and/or a very weak battery connection.
When commercial jumpers are clamped over the battery terminals, they provide a boost, but the long length of the smaller cables often are not enough to crank a high compression engine by themselves when the car’s battery is completely dead or electrically disconnected. If the car’s battery is very weak but connections are OK, sometimes just sitting for ten minutes with the jumpers connected will transfer enough juice from the donor battery to get you going. And yes, things work a lot better/faster with the donor car’s engine running.
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