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Powerflarm

 
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frans(at)privatepilots.nl
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:25 am    Post subject: Powerflarm Reply with quote

On 06/25/2013 03:38 AM, Kevin Kedward wrote:
Quote:


Ps, Go buy Powerflarm so you don't crash into me or fall on me because you ran out of fuel. Kevin the safe one.

Why would you go so dangerously close to other aircraft that you need
Powerflarm to avoid hitting them?

Seriously, this is exactly what I'm planning to do (buying the
Powerflarm, not the "running out of fuel" part).

On the North cape trip I saw some other pilots using an iPad mini with
SkyDemon, and I liked it so much that I also bought an iPad and SkyDemon
subscription.
With no Apple experience I made the mistake to buy the "wifi-only" iPad
model, assuming that I could use some remote bluetooth GPS antenna, or
even the GPS inside my Android phone as a starter, later to find out
that Apple simply sabotaged the possibility to use a generic external GPS.

At the same time I had PowerFlarm high on my wish list. I already have a
transponder-detector but I regularly fly in the Alps where there are
many gliders and no radar coverage. And Powerflarm detects everything,
mode-C, mode-S, ADS-B and Flarm. So I was very pleased to receive a new
version of SkyDemon with Powerflarm support built in.
It seems to support input with the Butterfly connect device, which
communicates between the Powerflarm and Ipad via wifi.

To avoid another buying mistake, I would like to hear if people have
experience with such a combination.
My intention is to buy the Garrecht TRX-1500, the Butterfly connect, and
have the information om my audio interface and Ipad running SkyDemon. If
this works well I don't need to have a dedicated powerflarm(-alike)
display in my panel. And I don't need yet another GPS-antenna just for
the iPad.

Just a few questions:
1) It looks like the Garrecht TRX-1500 is the same as Powerflarm, but
just a tad more optimised for use in powered aircraft than for gliders.
Is there a reason to use Butterfly instead of Garrecht?
2) It looks like the Butterfly connect broadcasts not only traffic info
but also GPS info. Neither party (not even SkyDemon) is willing to
testify that I can use it to get SkyDemon working on the Ipad-wifi, but
they suggest "it should be" and that SkyDemon will use the broadcasted
GPS info (without Apple knowing that I violate their ban on receiving
GPS-info on my No-GPS model).
3) How usable is the traffic info displayed via the SkyDemon? I have not
seen pictures of it, what is actually displayed when there is
conflicting traffic, but I like the idea to be able to see other
aircraft positioned on the moving map.

Thanks in advance for any wise words on this.

Frans


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dg.watts(at)talktalk.net
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:02 am    Post subject: Powerflarm Reply with quote

Skydemon had the Powerflarm connected to an iPad through a Butterfly Connect and displaying on a large TV screen at Aero Expo and very impressive it was too, showing all the aircraft in the vicinity that were transponding. I came straight home and bought a Butterfly Connect.

As to the GPS signal I personally think the best option for a wifi iPad is the plug in Bad Elf which gets its power from the iPad and we used that on our iPad 1 and the iPad 2. We have now got iPad Minis which are by far the best for flying and the have a proper GPS chip in them, although they will use the phone signal to improve the acquisition time if you have got the sim turned on. Quite frankly it gets a signal lightning quick with the sim turned off so there is no need for it to be on.

As for the Garrecht I have no experience other than what I have read.

Dave Watts G-BXDY

On 25 Jun 2013, at 11:25, Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl> wrote:

Quote:


On 06/25/2013 03:38 AM, Kevin Kedward wrote:
>
>
> Ps, Go buy Powerflarm so you don't crash into me or fall on me because you ran out of fuel. Kevin the safe one.

Why would you go so dangerously close to other aircraft that you need
Powerflarm to avoid hitting them?

Seriously, this is exactly what I'm planning to do (buying the
Powerflarm, not the "running out of fuel" part).

On the North cape trip I saw some other pilots using an iPad mini with
SkyDemon, and I liked it so much that I also bought an iPad and SkyDemon
subscription.
With no Apple experience I made the mistake to buy the "wifi-only" iPad
model, assuming that I could use some remote bluetooth GPS antenna, or
even the GPS inside my Android phone as a starter, later to find out
that Apple simply sabotaged the possibility to use a generic external GPS.

At the same time I had PowerFlarm high on my wish list. I already have a
transponder-detector but I regularly fly in the Alps where there are
many gliders and no radar coverage. And Powerflarm detects everything,
mode-C, mode-S, ADS-B and Flarm. So I was very pleased to receive a new
version of SkyDemon with Powerflarm support built in.
It seems to support input with the Butterfly connect device, which
communicates between the Powerflarm and Ipad via wifi.

To avoid another buying mistake, I would like to hear if people have
experience with such a combination.
My intention is to buy the Garrecht TRX-1500, the Butterfly connect, and
have the information om my audio interface and Ipad running SkyDemon. If
this works well I don't need to have a dedicated powerflarm(-alike)
display in my panel. And I don't need yet another GPS-antenna just for
the iPad.

Just a few questions:
1) It looks like the Garrecht TRX-1500 is the same as Powerflarm, but
just a tad more optimised for use in powered aircraft than for gliders.
Is there a reason to use Butterfly instead of Garrecht?
2) It looks like the Butterfly connect broadcasts not only traffic info
but also GPS info. Neither party (not even SkyDemon) is willing to
testify that I can use it to get SkyDemon working on the Ipad-wifi, but
they suggest "it should be" and that SkyDemon will use the broadcasted
GPS info (without Apple knowing that I violate their ban on receiving
GPS-info on my No-GPS model).
3) How usable is the traffic info displayed via the SkyDemon? I have not
seen pictures of it, what is actually displayed when there is
conflicting traffic, but I like the idea to be able to see other
aircraft positioned on the moving map.

Thanks in advance for any wise words on this.

Frans








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frans(at)privatepilots.nl
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:26 am    Post subject: Powerflarm Reply with quote

On 06/25/2013 01:01 PM, David Watts wrote:
Quote:

<dg.watts(at)talktalk.net>

Skydemon had the Powerflarm connected to an iPad through a Butterfly
Connect and displaying on a large TV screen at Aero Expo and very
impressive it was too, showing all the aircraft in the vicinity that
were transponding.

Ok, that sounds cool!

Quote:
I came straight home and bought a Butterfly
Connect.

Have you tried switching off the internal GPS, bad elf, or other sources
and see whether the SkyDemon actually uses the GPS info from the Powerflarm?

Quote:
As to the GPS signal I personally think the best option for a wifi
iPad is the plug in Bad Elf which gets its power from the iPad

I don't like this option because it means more wires, and all the
GPS-antenna's want to be placed at the best position but half a meter
away from other GPS antenna's, and since I'm operating an Europa and not
a 747 it becomes complicated to place all these antenna's according to
the manufacturers recommendations.
So I really hope that the iPad can get all its information out of the
wifi signal.

Quote:
As for the Garrecht I have no experience other than what I have
read.

It is a brick with no display but just a bunch of antenna's, it seems to
produce exactly the same information as the powerflarm and interfaces
with all the displays, connects and other gadgets. I think I will mount
it behind the D-panel where it has the least interference from
engine/instrument panel and the best overall view of the sky. And since
it broadcasts its information via wifi I only need to provide power to
it (and run the audio cable to the headset plugs).

Thanks,
Frans


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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:46 am    Post subject: Powerflarm Reply with quote

One minor cautionary tale about Powerflarm type systems.
Yesterday I had the excitement/privilege of flying over
Central London 9 times at around 900ft passing close to
and below(!!) the Shard, the Olympic stadium, etc on a
NE/SW course turning at LAM and OCK. The plane was G-ENVR
belonging to the Natural Environment Research Council and
housed in my hangar. It was stuffed full of scientific kit
to measure various pollutants, but also has very
sophisticated avionics which make a big fuss when we got
too close to the scenery or any other transponder equipped
plane got anywhere near us ( and there were police and
medical helicopters all over the place quite apart from
multiple aircraft climbing out of London City airport).
Our turning point at LAM meant that we were more or less
running down the active runway at Stapleford and on the
third time around they had an unpleasant surprise when a
small plane taking off almost had us from below without
setting off any alarm!
The message is that it is possibly too easy to
come to rely on a system covering less than 100% and
forget the common sense means of avoiding collisions.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 13:25:39 +0200
Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl> wrote:
Quote:

<frans(at)privatepilots.nl>

On 06/25/2013 01:01 PM, David Watts wrote:
>
> <dg.watts(at)talktalk.net>
>
> Skydemon had the Powerflarm connected to an iPad through
>a Butterfly
> Connect and displaying on a large TV screen at Aero Expo
>and very
> impressive it was too, showing all the aircraft in the
>vicinity that
> were transponding.

Ok, that sounds cool!

> I came straight home and bought a Butterfly
> Connect.

Have you tried switching off the internal GPS, bad elf,
or other sources
and see whether the SkyDemon actually uses the GPS info
from the Powerflarm?

> As to the GPS signal I personally think the best option
>for a wifi
> iPad is the plug in Bad Elf which gets its power from
>the iPad

I don't like this option because it means more wires,
and all the
GPS-antenna's want to be placed at the best position but
half a meter
away from other GPS antenna's, and since I'm operating
an Europa and not
a 747 it becomes complicated to place all these
antenna's according to
the manufacturers recommendations.
So I really hope that the iPad can get all its
information out of the
wifi signal.

> As for the Garrecht I have no experience other than what
>I have
> read.

It is a brick with no display but just a bunch of
antenna's, it seems to
produce exactly the same information as the powerflarm
and interfaces
with all the displays, connects and other gadgets. I
think I will mount
it behind the D-panel where it has the least
interference from
engine/instrument panel and the best overall view of the
sky. And since
it broadcasts its information via wifi I only need to
provide power to
it (and run the audio cable to the headset plugs).

Thanks,
Frans

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max8992



Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:11 am    Post subject: Powerflarm Reply with quote

Except when flying under flight plan (like IFR in IFR corridors) you are not
100% collision free, and even there Sad
But these systems help and make us more comfortable like HIS and RMI and GPS
for direction or even AI and ASI...

Max Cointe
mcointe(at)free.fr
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 450 hours

F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1550 heures
-----Message d'origine-----
De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de David Joyce
Quote:
> The message is that it is possibly too easy to come to rely on
a system covering less than 100% and forget the common sense means of

avoiding collisions.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ


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frans(at)privatepilots.nl
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:47 am    Post subject: Powerflarm Reply with quote

On 06/25/2013 02:45 PM, David Joyce wrote:

Quote:
One minor cautionary tale about Powerflarm type systems.

Nobody suggest that you don't have to look yourself anymore.

Until now I had a mode-C based traffic detector. Although I always fly
with my wife and we are both pilot, and have the rule that only one of
us looks at the map/instuments at a time so there is always at least one
pair of eyes outside, most of the traffic is spotted earlier by the
traffic watch than by us. It is stunning how much traffic we simply miss
and never would have noticed without traffic watch. Only in a very minor
amount of cases it is the other way around. In these cases it is often
"something" without transponder, or low flying in mountenais terrain
where the radar interrogation doesn't reach the transponder, or when
there is too much traffic around and the traffic watch focusses on the
wrong (further away) aircraft. These failures are mostly due to the
nature of mode-C detection, but with Flarm, ADS-B and mode-S the
detection rate and accuracy will be much better. (too bad that in the UK
it is not allowed to use the ADS-B capability of your transponder, but
in most other countries more and more people are using it. For those who
don't know what it is: wth ADS-B the transponder not only broadcasts the
altitude but also the GPS coordinates, giving a highly accurate 3D
position of the aircraft. Advanced computations can then calculate
whether a nearby aircraft is a potential threat or not, similar to the
Flarm system).

Frans


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dg.watts(at)talktalk.net
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:38 pm    Post subject: Powerflarm Reply with quote

I can't do Flarm test as I have not got it yet.
As for the Bad Elf or even the iPad antenna needing to be spaced half metre apart from other GPS antenna, I currently run 4 GPSs in my Europa, a panel mount Skyforce, 2 Mini iPads and my HTC smartphone (the last 3 all running Skydemon). Now there is no way you can get half metre separation on that lot in a Europa and I have never had any GPS problems.

Dave Watts G-BXDY

On 25 Jun 2013, at 12:25, Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl> wrote:

Quote:


On 06/25/2013 01:01 PM, David Watts wrote:
>
> <dg.watts(at)talktalk.net>
>
> Skydemon had the Powerflarm connected to an iPad through a Butterfly
> Connect and displaying on a large TV screen at Aero Expo and very
> impressive it was too, showing all the aircraft in the vicinity that
> were transponding.

Ok, that sounds cool!

> I came straight home and bought a Butterfly
> Connect.

Have you tried switching off the internal GPS, bad elf, or other sources
and see whether the SkyDemon actually uses the GPS info from the Powerflarm?

> As to the GPS signal I personally think the best option for a wifi
> iPad is the plug in Bad Elf which gets its power from the iPad

I don't like this option because it means more wires, and all the
GPS-antenna's want to be placed at the best position but half a meter
away from other GPS antenna's, and since I'm operating an Europa and not
a 747 it becomes complicated to place all these antenna's according to
the manufacturers recommendations.
So I really hope that the iPad can get all its information out of the
wifi signal.

> As for the Garrecht I have no experience other than what I have
> read.

It is a brick with no display but just a bunch of antenna's, it seems to
produce exactly the same information as the powerflarm and interfaces
with all the displays, connects and other gadgets. I think I will mount
it behind the D-panel where it has the least interference from
engine/instrument panel and the best overall view of the sky. And since
it broadcasts its information via wifi I only need to provide power to
it (and run the audio cable to the headset plugs).

Thanks,
Frans






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Ivor Phillips



Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:59 am    Post subject: Powerflarm Reply with quote

As a matter of interest I use my iPad mini with a garmin glo GPS receiver  this sends a Bluetooth signal to the iPad without wires even though my mini is the cellular type with built in GPS, it all works well but is only a backup to my Aera 795' Regards
Ivor

On Tuesday, 25 June 2013, David Watts wrote:
[quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: David Watts <[url=javascript:;]dg.watts(at)talktalk.net[/url]>

I can't do Flarm test as I have not got it yet.
As for the Bad Elf or even the iPad antenna needing to be spaced half metre apart from other GPS antenna, I currently run 4 GPSs in my Europa, a panel mount Skyforce, 2 Mini iPads and my HTC smartphone (the last 3 all running Skydemon). Now there is no way you can get half metre separation on that lot in a Europa and I have never had any GPS problems.

Dave Watts G-BXDY

On 25 Jun 2013, at 12:25, Frans Veldman <[url=javascript:;]frans(at)privatepilots.nl[/url]> wrote:

> --> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman <[url=javascript:;]frans(at)privatepilots.nl[/url]>
>
> On 06/25/2013 01:01 PM, David Watts wrote:
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: David Watts
>> <[url=javascript:;]dg.watts(at)talktalk.net[/url]>
>>
>> Skydemon had the Powerflarm connected to an iPad through a Butterfly
>> Connect and displaying on a large TV screen at Aero Expo and very
>> impressive it was too, showing all the aircraft in the vicinity that
>> were transponding.
>
> Ok, that sounds cool!
>
>> I came straight home and bought a Butterfly
>> Connect.
>
> Have you tried switching off the internal GPS, bad elf, or other sources
> and see whether the SkyDemon actually uses the GPS info from the Powerflarm?
>
>> As to the GPS signal I personally think the best option for a wifi
>> iPad is the plug in Bad Elf which gets its power from the iPad
>
> I don't like this option because it means more wires, and all the
> GPS-antenna's want to be placed at the best position but half a meter
> away from other GPS antenna's, and since I'm operating an Europa and not
> a 747 it becomes complicated to place all these antenna's according to
> the manufacturers recommendations.
> So I really hope that the iPad can get all its information out of the
> wifi signal.
>
>> As for the Garrecht I have no experience other than what I have
>> read.
>
> It is a brick with no display but just a bunch of antenna's, it seems to
> produce exactly the same information as the powerflarm and interfaces
> with all the displays, connects and other gadgets. I think I will mount
> it behind the D-panel where it has the least interference from
> engine/instrument panel and the best overall view of the sky. And since
> it broadcasts its information via wifi I only need to provide power to
> it (and run the audio cable to the headset plugs).
>
> Thanks,
> Frans
>
>
>
>


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pestar



Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Powerflarm Reply with quote

All models of the Wi-Fi only version iPad will Bluetooth to a standalone Bluetooth GPS.

I have the very first version of the wi-fi iPad (now running out of puff) bluetooth connected to my GPS running PocketFMS, AirNav Pro & Runway HD for New Zealand (yes I am nuts). My other colleagues have later wi-fi iPad versions and all work well.

As for GPS when I flew the other day I had 9 on-board

3 x separate EFIS, 1 x SpiderTracks, 1 x ELT, 1 x PLB, 1 x Smart Phone, 1 Dual for iPad, 1 x Suuno Watch - so I am more nuts!!!

and they all live happily ever after 'Surprised' and I have just a slightly larger cockpit area then the Europa.

Cheers Peter


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Powerflarm Reply with quote

On 06/26/2013 11:06 PM, pestar wrote:
Quote:


All models of the Wi-Fi only version iPad will Bluetooth to a standalone Bluetooth GPS.

This is in contradiction to the information that can be found in various
forums. I can't find an option to enable GPS via bluetooth either. The
only possibility seems to be to jailbreak the iPad, but my new iPad has
the newest iOS on it and the jailbreak can not be applied to it.

If you know an other way I would be interested. I have an Android phone
happily broadcasting GPS but the iPad won't even see it.

Best regards,
Frans


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rampil



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Powerflarm Reply with quote

Where did this dictum that GPS antennae need be 0.5 m apart?
I am reasonably well read in the field of GPS and SDR, and have
never heard of such a thing. In practice it is certainly not true.
I fly with a Blue Mountain EFIS with the external GPS antenna inside
my panel and my IPad backup is mounted such that its GPS antenna
is about 8 inches away and my iPhone GPS running about two feet away.
The assemblage in my car is similar. All gpss function as spec'd.
GPS devices are receivers and don't generate or transmit any noise in the
same band as the L1 and L2 bands. The heterodyne frequencies are below the antenna bandpass.

As for Apple blocking the connection of external GPS devices,
again simply not the case. What Apple did want not include a pre-written
GPS driver in the Bluetooth stack of its system software.
So far as I know, all the BT GPS like Dual (which I use), Bad Elf, etc,
use the serial driver in the BT stack to communicate. Simple enough for
programmer who writes the App software.

Cheers,

Ira


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rampil



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Powerflarm Reply with quote

Franz,

Pair the BT GPS with the iPad via the Settings Menu.

Start your software App which uses the GPS. If it is written to
use the serial stack, it will use the the GPS data.

I did not see which App you were trying to use. Was it Foreflight
or Hilton?

Did your external GPS come with a utility App? For example, Dual
was such software which proves the connection and details the satellite
signal strength etc.

Google maps or Apple maps may not use the BT serial approach.


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graeme bird



Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Powerflarm Reply with quote

I ordered the Powerflarm core Sat at the LAA rally UK from LX avionics (£999 inc). Seems its gaining momentum; RAF have ordered it for their aircadet trainers as well and a big take up of FLARM at Dunstable near me. I am not sure whether to get a stand alone display or to rely on Sky demon which means a blue tooth link and a new nexus7 or phone (bluetooth seems a bit excessive for where a few inches of serial cable would do).
The stand alone displays look a bit micro to me? Any comments?
Is the audio license worth having, I would guess so?

BTW great to see so many Europas and club members at the show.

Would it be a good idea to have a sign in list at the tent so one could see who has arrived been?
For me its always interesting to see the faces of the people from the forum.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Powerflarm Reply with quote

I bought a PowerFlarm Core from LX Avionics on Friday at the rally. I have been running SkyDemon on an iPad in the cockpit for over a year and having seen the imprssive traffic system on SkyDemon at AeroExpo earlier this year, a month ago I bought a Butterfly Connect bluetooth (in preparation), so hopefully I will be up and running with the system in the not too distant future.

Dave Watts G-BXDY

On 1 Sep 2013, at 22:05, "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk> wrote:

Quote:


I ordered the Powerflarm core Sat at the LAA rally UK from LX avionics (£999 inc). Seems its gaining momentum; RAF have ordered it for their aircadet trainers as well and a big take up of FLARM at Dunstable near me. I am not sure whether to get a stand alone display or to rely on Sky demon which means a blue tooth link and a new nexus7 or phone (bluetooth seems a bit excessive for where a few inches of serial cable would do).
The stand alone displays look a bit micro to me? Any comments?
Is the audio license worth having, I would guess so?

BTW great to see so many Europas and club members at the show.

Would it be a good idea to have a sign in list at the tent so one could see who has arrived been?
For me its always interesting to see the faces of the people from the forum.

--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 75 hours 18 months
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk




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steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:39 pm    Post subject: Powerflarm Reply with quote

Graeme, thanks for the feedback and as I was rushing around between several
stands I did not know who had turned up or not, so good idea for the future


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graeme bird



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Powerflarm Reply with quote

I have the PFLARM going and am impressed with it. Its great to have traffic pop up as little green planes on the skydemon display. I have had some teething problems with the arrangement with the Nexus7. I found its best to start the skydemon before powering up. If PFLARM is active Skydemon takes the GPS from it rather from the Nexus. If the GPS signal is lost I found I have to close down skydemon and restart it as it doesnt reconnect.

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Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
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