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Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:23 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

Putting on? Yes. Slower cruise? No. Check it out.

http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/kolb.htm



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

X-Generated-By: M2F: m2f.sourceforge.net

Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:35:01 -0800

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com



I am building a Kolb MK-III Xtra and have been reading about vortex generators.  People with the Firestars seem to like them, so im wondering if they are worth putting on the MK-III ?   If anyone has done this I would like to konw how much they help the stall speed and slow speed flying qualities.  People with firestars only report losing a couple MPH in cruise, but being that the MK III does 80 in cruise with a 912S I would think that the speed penalty might be greater on a faster airplane.  



Michael A. Bigelow



--------

NO FEAR -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3814#3814

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

tnfirestar2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

Also interested in VGs, Mike has asked all of my questions. I am leaning toward a kit, since i do not have my shop set up at the new house. So far, the most interesting seller is Landshorter.com, but i am interested to hear what the list members opinions are. Thanks in advance for your valued advice!

   

  Mike S

  Manchester TN

  Firestar 2 503

   

  do not archive



owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com wrote:

  



From: "JetPilot" 

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

X-Generated-By: M2F: m2f.sourceforge.net

Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:11:21 -0800

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com



With all the people using vortex generators out there, I was hoping to get a little more information.



It seems that I definately want them, so what I need to know now is which ones are the best. I hear of kits, I see some people make thier own. I just dont know which design of vortex generator works the best.



Also, how many should I put on the wing, and what is the best location ?



Thanks,



Michael A. Bigelow



--------

NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4006#4006

  

		

---------------------------------

 Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

| Also interested in VGs, Mike has asked all of my questions.  |

|  Mike S



Hi Mike S/Gang:



I haven't put them on my MKIII and have not had a chance to fly a Kolb 

equipped with vortex generators.  I know some aircraft come from the 

factory with them.  I think the Aviat Husky is one of them.



Don't think I will try them until I am satisfied the vortex generators 

do not degrade the excellent stall characteristics of Homer Kolb's 

wing, nor my present cruise speed.  John W already outruns me badly 

enough with his 912ULS powered Kolbra, and I don't want to be left any 

further behind than I am now.  I have heard from Kolb folks that have 

them that the gentle stall characteristics of the clean wing is 

replaced with a sharp stall when equipped with vortex generators. 

Also some cruise is sacrificed.



I am happy with the performance of my MKIII in the standard wing 

configuration.  It gets in and out of my 750 ft grass strip with one 

or two up with room to spare, even with its poor approach and 

departure because of obstacles.



So.........I'll wait and watch for some good tests results that will 

convince me I would be doing the right thing by adding them.  BTW this 

is one subject I have never discussed with Homer Kolb.  Have no idea 

of what his thoughts are on them.  I have heard he added some more 

dihedral to his 1985 Original Firestar (OSH UL Grand Champ 1985) when 

he recently rebuilt it.  Haven't heard his thoughts on this change 

either, but think they were favorable.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

tnfirestar2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

John H,

  Thanks for your thoughts. I have favored the idea of the VGs only due to my short home strip (not yet flown from) which will have just at 1000' usable field. I dont like the idea of giving up cruise or predictability of the stall break for stall speed, but if i need it to make this strip work, its a concession i feel is worth making. But if "Hauck's Hollar" is only 750, and you land a MKIII (vs my FS2), maybe the 1000' is enough to not worry about the additional efforts for stall speed reduction. Maybe once i get this field disced and leveled i can get you up here for a few test landings for your opinion. Iwould offer a steak and a cold beverage of your choice in exchange!

   

  PS: do we still need the do not archive, with the new BBS???

   

  Mike S

  Manchester TN

  Firestar 2 503

   

  do not archive



John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

  



| Also interested in VGs, Mike has asked all of my questions. |

| Mike S



Hi Mike S/Gang:



I haven't put them on my MKIII and have not had a chance to fly a Kolb 

equipped with vortex generators. I know some aircraft come from the 

factory with them. I think the Aviat Husky is one of them.



Don't think I will try them until I am satisfied the vortex generators 

do not degrade the excellent stall characteristics of Homer Kolb's 

wing, nor my present cruise speed. John W already outruns me badly 

enough with his 912ULS powered Kolbra, and I don't want to be left any 

further behind than I am now. I have heard from Kolb folks that have 

them that the gentle stall characteristics of the clean wing is 

replaced with a sharp stall when equipped with vortex generators. 

Also some cruise is sacrificed.



I am happy with the performance of my MKIII in the standard wing 

configuration. It gets in and out of my 750 ft grass strip with one 

or two up with room to spare, even with its poor approach and 

departure because of obstacles.



So.........I'll wait and watch for some good tests results that will 

convince me I would be doing the right thing by adding them. BTW this 

is one subject I have never discussed with Homer Kolb. Have no idea 

of what his thoughts are on them. I have heard he added some more 

dihedral to his 1985 Original Firestar (OSH UL Grand Champ 1985) when 

he recently rebuilt it. Haven't heard his thoughts on this change 

either, but think they were favorable.



  

			

---------------------------------

 Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

 	  Quote: 	
		  Maybe once i get this field disced and leveled i can get you up here for a few test landings for your opinion. Iwould offer a steak and a cold beverage of your choice in exchange! 

	




 	  Quote: 	
		  PS: do we still need the do not archive, with the new BBS??? 	




Hi Mike S:  That seems to have become my specialty.  Last year, unbeknownst to me, I made the first landing and takeoff on Ken Reeves airstrip over in West Alabama.  Did the first landing and takeoff on John Bickham's strip last month.  Be glad to come up and see what we can do with yours, especially since you have dangled the steak and cold beverage on a stick in front of my nose.



I don't know about "do not archive".  I haven't been informed, don't make the rules, and figured I haven't been jumped on, yet.  Reckon I'll leave it at that until briefed differently.



I am still doing most of my primary List reading on the old email list.  Seems more reader friendly to me, but after all, I am very old fashioned and "stuck in my old ways that work for me"!!!

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

tnfirestar2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

John H,

   

  I am also still doing most of my reading on the old mail list, but i do like the look of Matt's new forum. I hope to transition to it soon. But there is a comfort level about the old list thats hard to leave!

   

  I will keep you posted about my fields readiness (think that mid summer it will be ready for some action). It would be my honor to have you visit and share a meal, and talk Kolbs. Maybe i can get some of the other TN Kolber's out there to come down too, have a mini Kolb get together!

   

  Mike S

  Manchester TN

  Firestar 2 503

   

  do not archive

   

   

   

  



John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

  

 	  Quote: 	
		   Maybe once i get this field disced and leveled i can get you up here for a few test landings for your opinion. Iwould offer a steak and a cold beverage of your choice in exchange! 

 


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   PS: do we still need the do not archive, with the new BBS??? 


	




Hi Mike S: That seems to have become my specialty. Last year, unbeknownst to me, I made the first landing and takeoff on Ken Reeves airstrip over in West Alabama. Did the first landing and takeoff on John Bickham's strip last month. Be glad to come up and see what we can do with yours, especially since you have dangled the steak and cold beverage on a stick in front of my nose.



I don't know about "do not archive". I haven't been informed, don't make the rules, and figured I haven't been jumped on, yet. Reckon I'll leave it at that until briefed differently.



I am still doing most of my primary List reading on the old email list. Seems more reader friendly to me, but after all, I am very old fashioned and "stuck in my old ways that work for me"!!! 



--------

John Hauck

MKIII/912ULS

hauck's holler, alabama





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4046#4046

  

		

---------------------------------

 Photo Books. You design it and well bind it!

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

At 04:11 PM 1/14/06 -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

X-Generated-By: M2F: m2f.sourceforge.net

Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:11:21 -0800

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com



With all the people using vortex generators out there, I was hoping to get a little more information.



It seems that I definately want them, so what I need to know now is which ones are the best.  I hear of kits, I see some people make thier own.   I just dont know which design of vortex generator works the best.



Also, how many should I put on the wing, and what is the best location ?



Thanks,



Michael A. Bigelow




	


Michael,



After experiencing flight with VG's it would be difficult to go back to a 

FireFly with out them.  They enhance aileron effectiveness at slow speeds, 

which helps greatly during a gusty cross wind take off and/or landing.  One 

does not have to pick up a wing with rudder during slow flight.  The FireFly 

will not break into a clean stall, it will remain nose up and mush and a 

wing will not drop.  I see no down side to them.  Yes, there is one down 

side, the do make it more difficult to wash the wings.



They are very easily made from 0.010 inch thick aluminum house flashing.  I 

made my own and I stuck them on with very thin double sided tape. I have 

been flying with them for five and a half years and none have come loose.  

How it was done can be seen starting at:



http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly17.html



During testing, you may wish to use electrician's tape to hold the VG's in 

place.  When and if you decide you like them, you can go with the double 

sided tape.  



I can't prove it, but I believe you will get better performance by placing 

them on the fabric in between the ribs.  During my testing, I temporarily 

placed VG's on top of all the ribs and then later added VG's in between the 

ribs.  Test flights showed that the FireFly flew off at a lower speed with 

the most VG's.  After I made "good" ones, I installed them only in between 

the ribs and made test flight.  I could tell no difference between them and 

the previous flight, so I did not mount any on top of the ribs.  I believe 

that as the air passes from the front of the wing that it starts to move a 

little side ways away from the rib.  By placing the VG centered in the space 

in between the ribs, it boosts the air back out.



Try them, you will like them.  If by chance you don't you will not have 

spent more than $10.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

beauford(at)tampabay.rr.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

Brother Bigelow...

VG's, eh...   How much money and time ya got?



Reports seem to be that they all work... some, apparently, are marginally

better.  Some cost

big bucks... these are pretty, precision pieces of artisisan craftsmanship,

lovingly

cut to be the absolute twin of each of their fellows...finished

flawlessly...semi

invisible to the casual observer.... placed on the wing with appropriate

ceremony and

laser precision using state of the art technology, stainless steel jigs and

chants...



They work ...



Some (like mine) are Howard Shackleford's famous specials, cut out of a

scrap of aluminum

gutter flashing from Home Despot... on the rusty top of an old freezer, in a

cloud of Macanudo

smoke while consuming multiple gin Martinis....   and subsequently put

mostly somewhere

on the top part of the wing sometime during daylight hours...(as I

recall.....)  Ground

observers inform me that the airplane now moans softly to itself on

downwind, but since I am

tuned exclusively to the metallic agony and clatter of the mighty 447, I

don't hear the

less threatening tones... guess my current bride was right, I really should

have used a ruler, or

straightedge or something when I glued 'em on...

But they work ...



Re your question, I reckon the conventional placement wisdom is about one

per rib and false rib,

with the leading edge of the VG gizmo approximately eleven point nothing

inches aft of the wing

leading edge.. that's where I recall most Listers said they were getting

good results, and that's where

I put mine. I concentrated the outboard part of the wing in front of the

ailerons...one per each

and every rib for six feet...then they got a tad more scarce as I went

inboard... (Ran out of flashing,

plus I didn't want to get inside the prop arc just in case...). I think I

have a grand total of 26 on both

sides. The pointy part goes to the front according to most folks, but I was

just thinkin', I'll bet a man

could get some really energetic vortices by running those puppies the other

way...  I'll have to

ponder that a while...



I can report at least a 5 or 6 mph reduction in indicated payoff speed on

the firefly at altitude, but that is

NOT the primary reason I like them... I fly all approaches at 55 or 60,

pretending

as if it is going to stall at 45... then let the drag quickly bleed off the

speed over the fence ..the biggest VG

advantage for me on the short-wing Kolb is the way it behaves in ground

effect when completing

rounding out the flare from a power-off  approach with my flabby 210 lb butt

aboard...

The VG's improved the feel of bouyancy and reserve lift of the wing down

in ground effect... Not exactly dramatic, but noticably better..



One nice thing about 'em... if'n you don't like what is happening and you

get a

substandard outcome, soak the double-stick tape with a little mineral

spirits

and peel the suckers off...   as soon as the stink evaporates, you'll be

back at square

one and your close personal associates will be none the wiser.... deny

everything...they'll just

think you waxed the tops of your wings.  Later you can sneak out and try 'em

again using a

different plan.



Bottom line from where I sit...   Kolbs be blunt instruments...they pretty

much

axe-murder the air, as opposed to cleaving cleanly through it... Near as I

can tell, once a good

Kolb aerodynamic innovation is proven, excesses of finesse at the margins of

execution doen't often accrue major

additional advantages one way or another after the dust settles.



One suspects the entire VG business wraps around that fundamental high drag,

high lift Kolb baseline

of reality...drag, bugs and gravity always win.  IMHO if a man truly craves

and seeks the exquisite pain and thrill

of walking the edge of life's razor, he needs to go buy a 150 hp Hayabusa

motorcycle or seek out and date

my first wife, not waste his time fooling around with fine-tuning schemes

about how to make 65 mph airplanes into

67 mph airplanes or a 37 mph stall into a 36.



Come to think of it, I reckon the VG enterprise falls into the same

fascinating overall category as matrimony;

it's half art, half guesswork, half experimentation, half engineering, half

money, half fun, half what you think you

can get away with, and there is some chance of getting maimed or killed

trying to make it work. The "fun" is

in taking a shot at it...



I doubt you'll ever get the "correct" final answer on VG's for your

particular

situation off the List...there are too many "good" answers...   Why not just

go try one and adjust fire

later based on how well it does...?



They all work... 



My opinion... Worth what ye paid fer it...



Yr Hmbl Svt...



Beauford, the aluminum butcher of Brandon FL

Toyota Pilot

FF #076

Do Not Archive



---

Larry Cottrell

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 35
Location: Klamath Falls, Oregon

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

---

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

Hey John, next time you get anywhere close to North East Tennessee, you 

need to take my MKIII and go fly it solo. We went flying in it together, 

but you know how much better the MKIII flies with that extra seat empty, 

go take the Old Pooperoo Hauler out for a couple hours, get a few 

thousand feet under you and stall it every which way you want.  The 

stall is still nice, just a bit different. It won't cruise as fast as 

yours, but the meager 582 is probably to blame for that, anyway, it 

wasn't any faster before the VG's. (PS, forget about catching John W's 

Kolbra, it ain't gonna' happen...)



Year before last at the Kolb Fly-In, Homer was very interested in my 

VG's, took all kinds of notes, but don't know what he about them did 

after that.

Will be curious to see if anything ever comes of it -



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



 | Also interested in VGs, Mike has asked all of my questions.  |

|  Mike S



Hi Mike S/Gang:



I haven't put them on my MKIII and have not had a chance to fly a Kolb 

equipped with vortex generators.  I know some aircraft come from the 

factory with them.  I think the Aviat Husky is one of them.



Don't think I will try them until I am satisfied the vortex generators 

do not degrade the excellent stall characteristics of Homer Kolb's 

wing, nor my present cruise speed.  John W already outruns me badly 

enough with his 912ULS powered Kolbra, and I don't want to be left any 

further behind than I am now.  I have heard from Kolb folks that have 

them that the gentle stall characteristics of the clean wing is 

replaced with a sharp stall when equipped with vortex generators. 

Also some cruise is sacrificed.



I am happy with the performance of my MKIII in the standard wing 

configuration.  It gets in and out of my 750 ft grass strip with one 

or two up with room to spare, even with its poor approach and 

departure because of obstacles.



So.........I'll wait and watch for some good tests results that will 

convince me I would be doing the right thing by adding them.  BTW this 

is one subject I have never discussed with Homer Kolb.  Have no idea 

of what his thoughts are on them.  I have heard he added some more 

dihedral to his 1985 Original Firestar (OSH UL Grand Champ 1985) when 

he recently rebuilt it.  Haven't heard his thoughts on this change 

either, but think they were favorable.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

Brother Richard:  I appreciate your offer.  After reading Brother Bill Tuton's grand post on vortex generators, I ran right out in the cold and dark of night to rip the valley aluminum off the roof.  Luckily, before I actually did any ripping, I realized I still have some left from the last time I built a gap seal for my FS.  I never throw away anything.



One of these days, when I muster up the courage to stick those sticky things all over my wings, and it gets dark enough so no one can see what I am doing, I may try VG's.  Not worried about getting the wash rag snagged on them during washing, because that doesn't occur but about one a year.



I am interested in the murmur that was reported coming from Bill's FF on downwind.  Does your MKIII murmur?  Also like to know what kind of murmur it is.   Really got my imagination going now.



Take care friend,



john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:35 am Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

Yeah, it murmurs all right, but it's not the VG's, it's the Ivo.

It's going warpwarpwarpwarpwarpwarp.

I'm not sure what that means, so I mostly just ignore it.

Bill's FF? It's the 447. It's going moneymoneymoneymoneymoney.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<snip>



I am interested in the murmur that was reported coming from Bill's FF on downwind.  Does your MKIII murmur?  Also like to know what kind of murmur it is.   Really got my imagination going now.



Take care friend,



john h



--------

John Hauck

MKIII/912ULS

hauck's holler, alabama





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4067#4067

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

luther b green

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 47

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:11 am Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

Morning John h and all

    If you are serious about trying VG's John let me know how many you need 

and I will cut and bend you some (Brother Shack's design ). It may take a 

couple of week before you get them.

Bryan Green (Elgin SC)

---

_________________
Bryan Green Elgin SC
Firestar 447 Powerfin

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:15 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

Also interested in VGs>>



Hi Guys,



Mick Moulai,(Kiwimick)  the UK and European dealer has got approval from the 

PFA (like your EAA)  for the VG`s he imports. Also from the CAA (your FAA).

We  cannot just make mods such as this without approval. He has checked the 

results pretty thoroughly and can give you the pukka gen .



I have them fitted to my Xtra but as authority has not cleared the test 

flying yet I  cannot comment from personal experience.



Pat



do not archive 



--

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

I am still doing most of my primary List reading on the old email list. >>



I am with you John.  The old system seems much easier to navigate but the 

extra dimension the BBS gives ( should we have had the phone./camera pics on 

the ols system?) makes it a useful backup.



Pat



do not archive 



--

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  



I have them fitted to my Xtra but as authority has not cleared the test 

flying yet I  cannot comment from personal experience.



	




Thats horrible to live in a place where the government is such control freaks.  I hate to say it, but it gets more like that every day here in the US also.  Give it enough time, and we will need permission to go out the front door.   Its the same old story through the ages, people are passive, and slowly loose thier freedoms until one day they find themselves enslaved.



Personally, If I were in your place, I would put them on my Kolb, fly it, and the government would never know about it

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

kiwimick

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Location: ENGLAND

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:54 am Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

I have got the VG's approved on the MIII X in the UK and they are now 

standard fit on all.

See www.landshorter.com they do exactly what they say they will do.

These are what we use, they are designed in a wind tunnel, and you can 

hardly see them, and they weigh almost nothing.



Cheers

Mike

Xtra/Jab2200

---

_________________
Mike the kiwi Kolber in England.......

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

Personally, If I were in your place, I would put them on my Kolb, fly it, 

and the government would never know about it  >>. G



Hi,

Dont think I haven`t been tempted. Trouble is the USA is a bit bigger than 

the UK. I am sure that inthe USA  there are large areas where authority 

doesn`t rear its ugly head.

Here someone would surely come across me at a Fly-in somewhere and start 

asking questions. Although ultralights constitute the largest part of the GA 

fraternity it is still a fairly small number and the same people turn up at 

the fly-ins and the CAA or the PFA is usually represented at the larger 

ones.. There are only a very few Kolbs here in any case.



Thank goodness that the weather has been pretty naff lately so flying does 

not seem very attractive and in any case I still have the Challenger 

operating.



Cheers



Pat



do not archive 



--

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

Thanks everyone !



I really like what im hearing from you guys about vortex generators, im going to get the ones from www.landshorter.com    They are well tested, of optimum height, shape, and are known to work well.  They are only 100 bucks     You just cant beat that deal.



I could make them cheaper, and they might be ok, but then again I might make mine to short, to long, etc. etc.   Home made Vortex Generators might help, but might not give the full optimization of well tested and optimized generators.   www.landshorter.com may just be the best 100 dollars I spend.



Michael Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Possum

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Georgia

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

At 09:33 PM 1/16/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>



 >  Look up Possums on this site.



I get like 1000 hits back when I search

"possums", someone with that name posts a lot !!!

----------------------
	


It's not all me - You just picked up listers mentioning my name.

Here's all I ever Posted about VG's



I'll just cut and paste from the archives - sorry

to repeat myself =96 but you asked.

Here's what they look like. You'll have to look close



they're small.



<http://sos.photosite.com/Album1



I didn't expect them to do a lot - so I put them on with the



Double stick tape so I could remove them later. They're clear lexan



and the tape matches my wing color - so you don't really notice



them. They are pretty small and don't have any sharp pointed edges



like the "homemade" ones do. My average cord

(including the ailerons) is about 60 inches.



The instructions say to use double stick tape until you



find the optimum location or "sweet spot" and then glue them



later. I think I will just leave them stuck on with the tape I got



at the auto paint shop - it seems pretty strong. However mineral



spirts seems to loosen & dissolve the glue if I ever want o move



them or take them off.



Automotive Acrylic Plus Attachment Tape



It took more time to put the tape on each VG than it did



to put the VGs on the plane.



I was very impressed - and am going to leave them on.



On take off I can point the nose up almost 35 degrees



and hold the air speed just over 30 mph and it seems to just hang



on the prop, and it really does seem to knock about 6 or 7  mph off my



stall speed. Got a $30 Hall speed indicator out side the



plane - it's more accurate than the one inside.



I was just surprised at what these little things would actually do for



the amount of time and money invested. And like Jeremy says it's not



just that you can fly slower, it's "how well" you can fly slower



that=92s what most impressed to me. 30 mph no mush. I fly my plane slow



- a lot.



I have a 27' 9" wing span - actually have 42 on each



wing. I'll have to count them. Bought a hundred got about 18 left over.



So I put two in each valley and used the 2.75 inch spacing guide



to "kind of space them out" between each rib and false rib etc.



Just a guess, but it seemed to work out OK.

Wasn't really sure which one to use since I have

scalloped wings and can't just space them out

evenly over the length of the wings like you might do on a Cub.



The instructions say VG's should be placed about 1% of the wingspan apart.



The instructions say put them on 10 to 12% of the

wing cord (including the ailerons) back from the

leading edge. Too far forward and they will slow

down the cruise speed, too far back and they become ineffective.



I put mine about 11% or 6 1/2 inches back from the leading edge as measured



through the middle of the cord of the wing. I used the T-square method -



like Ben Ransom did on his homemade ones -for the set back and put



them about 6 1/2 inches back from the LE.



It takes two of these to equal on of the homemade ones.



Guess it'll cost you $100 to find out if they work for you.



Oh -- BTW I've got a $35 "Hall ASI" on my nose cone, Air Speed Indicator



in the Instrument panel and Garmon GPS 295 inside.



So I'm pretty sure my airspeed is right, but the Hall is the most accurate.



Before the VG's my stall speed was only around 36 mph - so don't



expect miracles.

Mine didn't pick up any bad tendencies.

Just a lower stallspeed. A lot more control a

just above stall. I used the little lexan

"Landshorter" ones - about 42 + per wing, used the pattern they

sent for the layout.

This weekend I've got my stall speed down to 28 mph with the VGs true air

speed with a Hall Air Speed Indicator located on the out side of the

cockpit. There were about 100 sail boats on one of our local lakes here

for the holidays. I can do a controlled 30 degree turn at 30 mph with these

things which is kind of amazing. With a 12 mph hour head wind I was

almost lagging behind some of the larger sail boats at 200 ft AGL. You guys

got to try these things if you like to fly low and slow and don't want to

mush anymore. I know they can't see my engine from the ground because

it's above the wing, they can't see the prop - because it's spinning - they

can hardly hear me at 4300 rpm --- so I I'm a UFO or from the skunk works

to some of them.

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