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Slick Mag AD?

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jkreidler

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:53 am Post subject: Slick Mag AD?

All, while at Oshkosh I had a conversation with the slick mag guys.  Joe warned me of a service bulletin (Slick SB1-98, Lycoming SB 537) which turned into an AD that should apply to our engines IO540-D4A5 but for some reason does not explicitly list our model.  Instead they make reference to a list of models and engines with fifth order balancers which the last "5" in our suffix refers to.  The service bulletin calls for mandatory 250 hour inspections of impulse couplings, ultimately advising replacement of impulse coupled mags with retard breakers and slick start.



So to the brain trust - what is your interpretation of this SB (a short Google search will find it)?  I wonder why they continue to offer impulse coupled mags on new IO540-XXX5 engines.  When I talked to Lycoming they said, "yup it looks like this applies to your engine".  - Jason

_________________
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:14 am Post subject: Slick Mag AD?

does it only apply to an impulse mag?



Sent from my iPhone



On Aug 4, 2013, at 11:53 AM, "jkreidler" <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com> wrote:






All, while at Oshkosh I had a conversation with the slick mag guys.  Joe warned me of a service bulletin (Slick SB1-98, Lycoming SB 537) which turned into an AD that should apply to our engines IO540-D4A5 but for some reason does not explicitly list our model.  Instead they make reference to a list of models and engines with fifth order balancers which the last "5" in our suffix refers to.  The service bulletin calls for mandatory 250 hour inspections of impulse couplings, ultimately advising replacement of impulse coupled mags with retard breakers and slick start.



So to the brain trust - what is your interpretation of this SB (a short Google search will find it)?  I wonder why they continue to offer impulse coupled mags on new IO540-XXX5 engines.  When I talked to Lycoming they said, "yup it looks like this applies to your engine".  - Jason



--------

Jason Kreidler

4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI

Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler

N44YH - Flying - #40617





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405907#405907

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

jkreidler

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Slick Mag AD?

Yes, only impulse mags if it applies at all, I am still very curious why the D4A5 would not have been listed if it applied.  At the same time I don't want an omission on their part to leave us with the same real issue even if the paperwork didn't follow. - Jason

_________________
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:07 pm Post subject: Slick Mag AD?

Thanks.  I just moved and my network access is limited.  I can get the 10 ready for first flight or wire the new house.



Fortunately for me, the engines that Vans sell all have a retard mag.



Bob



Sent from my iPad



On Aug 4, 2013, at 4:14 PM, "jkreidler" <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Yes, only impulse mags if it applies at all, I am still very curious why the D4A5 would not have been listed if it applied.  At the same time I don't want an omission on their part to leave us with the same real issue even if the paperwork didn't follow. - Jason

 

 --------

 Jason Kreidler

 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI

 Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler

 N44YH - Flying - #40617

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405923#405923

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:06 pm Post subject: Slick Mag AD?

The way the Lycoming and Slick service bulletins are written at this time, they do not apply to the C4B5 or D4A5 engines. Given that those engines were extensively used on the Aztec and Comanche aircraft, if the bulletin was to apply to them, it would state that. Not saying you shouldn't keep an eye on the impulse coupling, but the SB names all affected aircraft. Since the engines normally used in the -10 don't come from any of those aircraft, probably does not apply.

 

Of course many of the donor aircraft didn't have problems with Slick mags because they were originally certified with Bendix mags (which have some of their own ADs, but are generally more durable and more rebuildable than Slicks)

 

On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 8:53 AM, jkreidler <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com (jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "jkreidler" <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com (jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com)>

  

 All, while at Oshkosh I had a conversation with the slick mag guys.  Joe warned me of a service bulletin (Slick SB1-98, Lycoming SB 537) which turned into an AD that should apply to our engines IO540-D4A5 but for some reason does not explicitly list our model.  Instead they make reference to a list of models and engines with fifth order balancers which the last "5" in our suffix refers to.  The service bulletin calls for mandatory 250 hour inspections of impulse couplings, ultimately advising replacement of impulse coupled mags with retard breakers and slick start.

  

 So to the brain trust - what is your interpretation of this SB (a short Google search will find it)?  I wonder why they continue to offer impulse coupled mags on new IO540-XXX5 engines.  When I talked to Lycoming they said, "yup it looks like this applies to your engine".  - Jason

  

 --------

 Jason Kreidler

 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI

 Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler

 N44YH - Flying - #40617

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405907#405907

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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-- 



 - sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm

  

  [quote][b]

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

jkreidler

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Slick Mag AD?

Kelly, can you tell me if the Aztec or Comanche came with Slick impulse mags?  I think the problem might be that the D4A5 technically did not come with impulse mags.  For us, Lycoming offered them as an 'upgrade', but still called the engine a D4A5.

_________________
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Slick Mag AD?

 	  jkreidler wrote: 	
		  Kelly, can you tell me if the Aztec or Comanche came with Slick impulse mags?  I think the problem might be that the D4A5 technically did not come with impulse mags.  For us, Lycoming offered them as an 'upgrade', but still called the engine a D4A5. 	




Jason, I can tell you that my C4B5 came off an Aztec and it had the Slick impulse mags on it.

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

jkreidler

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Slick Mag AD?

David, I glanced at Lycoming SSP-401 which gives the lineage of the engines.  Here is how the IO-540-C4B5 plays out....



IO-540-C4B5 - Same as â€“C1B5 but with more effective counter weights for use with Hartzell â€œcompactâ€ propeller



IO-540-C1B5 - Same as O-540-A1D5 but with Bendix fuel injector



O-540-A1D5 - Same as â€“A1B5 except for Retard Breaker Magnetos



O-540-A1B5 - Same as â€“A1A5 except for short propeller governor studs and two impulse Magnetos



O-540-A1A5 - Same as â€“A1A but one fifth and one sixth order counterweights



O-540-A1A - Two sixth order counterweights



So from the looks of it your engine should have had retard breakers tracing back to the -A1D5 and a fifth order counterweight traced back to the A1A5...



Is there a more efficient way to find out exactly what accessories were on which engines?

_________________
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Slick Mag AD?

I don't know, Jason. I googled the sb and found this 1999 bulletin from Piper. Clear from this that the C4B5 on the Aztec was not on the list at that time. 

ftp://64.191.142.163/pub/piper%20SE/pa32/ServPubs/VSP-SA/VSP%20117.pdf

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

jump2(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:55 am Post subject: Slick Mag AD?

The c4b5 does not have the option of impulse coupling. Look up slick magneto and engine and I believe you will not find that option.

The Aztec engine I first used did not have impulse coupling 1980. 

When we were thinking of switching from slick start to impulse we did a intense search and that is what we found out. Impulse will work but joe at champion really advises against it.

My two cents

Patrick Thyssen

Ps another note we just found was the k&n filter shrinks over time and needs to be replaced its not a life time filter.

Sent from my iPhone



On Aug 5, 2013, at 2:21 PM, "dmaib(at)me.com" <dmaib(at)me.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I don't know, Jason. I googled the sb and found this 1999 bulletin from Piper. Clear from this that the C4B5 on the Aztec was not on the list at that time. 

 ftp://64.191.142.163/pub/piper%20SE/pa32/ServPubs/VSP-SA/VSP%20117.pdf

 

 --------

 David Maib

 RV-10 #40559

 Transition Trainer

 New Smyrna Beach, FL

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405987#405987

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:03 pm Post subject: Slick Mag AD?

I found the same thing this year on the filter.  Mine had shrunk 

CONSIDERABLY.

I bought a replacement, but didn't replace it yet...first I had to 

re-rivet in those

holder tabs that keep it from moving around.  Or maybe I did replace it.

I can't remember right now. But, I know the new one will shrink too.



Tim



On 8/5/2013 2:54 PM, Patrick Thyssen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The c4b5 does not have the option of impulse coupling. Look up slick magneto and engine and I believe you will not find that option.

 The Aztec engine I first used did not have impulse coupling 1980.

 When we were thinking of switching from slick start to impulse we did a intense search and that is what we found out. Impulse will work but joe at champion really advises against it.

 My two cents

 Patrick Thyssen

 Ps another note we just found was the k&n filter shrinks over time and needs to be replaced its not a life time filter.

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:00 pm Post subject: Slick Mag AD?

No Lycoming engine came with Slick mags until Continental bought Bendix 

mags (long after both aircraft were out of production). It was a Textron 

corporate decision to change to Slick mags for everything except those 

for which there was not a Slick equivalent, like the dual headed single 

mag engines.

So no table of differences between engines is going to tell you what 

they are currently shipped with. However, ALL new and rebuilt/overhauled 

engines from Lycoming will come with Slick mags with the above noted 

exception. Changeover was more than 20 years ago.

Service bulletins and ADs are written to either be very specific about 

what engines or airframes, OR to say they apply to all engines with this 

specific appliance, batch of parts, etc.  Almost all lists of parallel 

valve O-540 and IO-540 engines suitable for the RV-10 are models with 5 

as the last digit. Only a handful of those appear on this Service 

Bulletin, so there is some characteristic about the specific engines 

they aren't telling you.

I would suggest contacting both Vans and Lycoming to ask their tech 

support as to whether the SB applies to the D4A5 engine or not, whether 

installed in a Comanche or RV-10, and if so, why the Comanche as a 

certified aircraft is not listed on the SB. No need to ask about the 

C4B5 because it is an identical engine except for data plate and 

governor redline setting.



On 8/5/2013 11:17 AM, jkreidler wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Kelly, can you tell me if the Aztec or Comanche came with Slick impulse mags?  I think the problem might be that the D4A5 technically did not come with impulse mags.  For us, Lycoming offered them as an 'upgrade', but still called the engine a D4A5.



 --------

 Jason Kreidler

 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI

 Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler

 N44YH - Flying - #40617





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405978#405978

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:13 pm Post subject: Slick Mag AD?

I don't know why an Aztec couldn't have impulse coupled engine.  There 

are several versions of the engine that do have impulse coupling, 

including the C4C5D

the D4A5, the D4B5, etc. Piper and other manufacturers went back and 

forth between impulse coupling and retard breaker starting systems quite 

a bit back in the sixties and 70s.  Only the presence of a vibrator, the 

wiring and ignition switch are different. The retard breaker has had 

less ADs, both otherwise both are pretty equivalent for starting.

On 8/5/2013 12:54 PM, Patrick Thyssen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 The c4b5 does not have the option of impulse coupling. Look up slick magneto and engine and I believe you will not find that option.

 The Aztec engine I first used did not have impulse coupling 1980.

 When we were thinking of switching from slick start to impulse we did a intense search and that is what we found out. Impulse will work but joe at champion really advises against it.

 My two cents

 Patrick Thyssen

 Ps another note we just found was the k&n filter shrinks over time and needs to be replaced its not a life time filter.

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 5, 2013, at 2:21 PM, "dmaib(at)me.com" <dmaib(at)me.com> wrote:

> 

>

> I don't know, Jason. I googled the sb and found this 1999 bulletin from Piper. Clear from this that the C4B5 on the Aztec was not on the list at that time.

> ftp://64.191.142.163/pub/piper%20SE/pa32/ServPubs/VSP-SA/VSP%20117.pdf

>

> --------

> David Maib

> RV-10 #40559

> Transition Trainer

> New Smyrna Beach, FL

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405987#405987

>

>

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

aerosport1

Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 231

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:21 pm Post subject: Slick Mag AD?

I had the same thing with my filter. Mine shrunk and also was cutting into

the fiberglass. I did replace

Mine at my annual. I prosealed A .03-.04 aluminum ring in the fiberglass

housing. It worked really good. Got the idea from someone else On VAF. My

filter was almost a 1/3 thru the fiberglass. Here is a PDF full scale of the

ring 



Geoff

Geoff Combs 

--

filter_ring.PDF

Description:

Download

Filename:

filter_ring.PDF

Filesize:

33.01 KB

Downloaded:

456 Time(s)

_________________
Geoff Combs
RV-10 QB N829GW
Flying 500 hrs
40033

Jim Combs

Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:20 am Post subject: Slick Mag AD?

My C4B5 had Bendix mags.  I replaced the left mag with a light speed ignition.  Use left only for starting and run with both.

Plan is to replace the Bendix mag at some point with a second electronic system.

I think it had impulse mag on left when I got it.  

Jim C

N312F - 550+ hours

Do not archive.

 On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Patrick Thyssen <jump2(at)sbcglobal.net (jump2(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: Patrick Thyssen <jump2(at)sbcglobal.net (jump2(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 The c4b5 does not have the option of impulse coupling. Look up slick magneto and engine and I believe you will not find that option.

 The Aztec engine I first used did not have impulse coupling 1980.

 When we were thinking of switching from slick start to impulse we did a intense search and that is what we found out. Impulse will work but joe at champion really advises against it.

 My two cents

 Patrick Thyssen

 Ps another note we just found was the k&n filter shrinks over time and needs to be replaced its not a life time filter.

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 5, 2013, at 2:21 PM, "dmaib(at)me.com (dmaib(at)me.com)" <dmaib(at)me.com (dmaib(at)me.com)> wrote:

 > --> RV10-List message posted by: "dmaib(at)me.com (dmaib(at)me.com)" <dmaib(at)me.com (dmaib(at)me.com)>

 >

 > I don't know, Jason. I googled the sb and found this 1999 bulletin from Piper. Clear from this that the C4B5 on the Aztec was not on the list at that time.

 > ftp://64.191.142.163/pub/piper%20SE/pa32/ServPubs/VSP-SA/VSP%20117.pdf

 >

 > --------

 > David Maib

 > RV-10 #40559

 > Transition Trainer

 > New Smyrna Beach, FL

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > Read this topic online here:

 >

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405987#405987

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

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 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 [b]

_________________
RV-10 -> N312F - Flying as of 12/2008

Albert Gardner

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 455
Location: Yuma, AZ

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:36 am Post subject: Slick Mag AD?

 	  Quote: 	
		  Speaking of mags, did the e-mag/p-mag people have anything new concerning 6 cylinder models at Oshkosh?Albert GardnerN991RVYuma, AZ 	


   [quote][b]

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RV-9A N872RV
RV-10 N991RV

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