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tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
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 Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:01 pm Post subject: Gusset plates |
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Gidday,
I am having trouble with the gusset plates. I used the 12 ply supplied and shaped it accordingly, except I have about a 5 mm gap from ply to tie rod. The cloth will take up approx half of that. So, I bonded on the ply and then layed up the 4 plies of BID, which in essence thickens the ply by 8 plies. So, now that its all done I have a 2-3 mm gap +/- and the gusset plates do not sit parallel. For the other side I lightly clamped the plates together as the BID cured, in situ, and they were covered in Canauba Wax for a release agent. So, that side is OK, but the first side I have a problem I am hoping I can use Redux and Flox to pack out both the gap between rod and ply, and also to create a flat bed for the gusset plates. I am wondering this would be considered an acceptable way to fix things? I know Redux and Flox is a pretty tough mix and the loads in this region I do not consider will challenge what I am doing, as something would have already broken, like a wing!
Regards
Tony Renshaw
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budyerly(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:35 pm Post subject: Gusset plates |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Tony,
If you have a gap but the plate is parallel or close to parallel to the tube you can put a small joggle in the steel. However then your bolt hole to edge distance becomes critical on the wood glass gusset. If there is still good edge distance you'll be OK.
Another method is to put a filler strip to take up the gap of steel. Just a short strip with a couple holes in it match drilled will do.
It should only add a bit of time and be more than secure.
All one is looking for is to keep the tube stable.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
[quote] ---
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europajimkelly(at)gmail.c
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:07 pm Post subject: Gusset plates |
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Hi Bud, It appears that there's always problems with Europa exhaust pipes cracking near the manifold, any ideas why this is so prevalent ?
Jimmy
On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
[quote] Tony,
If you have a gap but the plate is parallel or close to parallel to the tube you can put a small joggle in the steel. However then your bolt hole to edge distance becomes critical on the wood glass gusset. If there is still good edge distance you'll be OK.
Another method is to put a filler strip to take up the gap of steel. Just a short strip with a couple holes in it match drilled will do.
It should only add a bit of time and be more than secure.
All one is looking for is to keep the tube stable.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
[quote] ---
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budyerly(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:26 pm Post subject: Gusset plates |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Jimmy,
Some time ago, the factory went to another exhaust manufacturer CKT Aero engineering and they did a good job of remanufacturing our exhaust with thicker, better stainless steel, better muffler supports and less stress on the mandrel bends of the pipes. CKT also makes systems for most of the Rotax powered kits in Europe. Too bad we all had the older exhaust sold to us before which cracked at the exhaust, pipes and everywhere for mostly harmonic reasons . The only problem with the CKT exhaust was the springs, which were standard motorcycle carbon steel type, now he makes a stainless steel spring to try to get better longevity. CKT stands behind their products and has taken care of me.
Note: In certified aircraft we put RTV or high temp red silicone on the springs to reduce vibration harmonics. I run a piece of safety wire through the spring and pull it up loosely. This keeps any fatigued springs from becoming FOD.
Some History:
The 912S harmonics cause the exhaust to move laterally a bit and that will fatigue crack in the bend of the exhaust of any system and if the springs were made tighter, the muffler supports cracked. We all know how bad the aluminum heat shield was. Also the 914 had some real problems but over time, metal bends went to welded seams and we have been trouble free. The original 912 exhaust was kept as light as possible, but the vibration and harmonics caused fatigue cracks at very low time. My first experience was with Ira Rampil's exhaust which cracked in about 4 places. Chris at CKT replaced the old exhaust with his and we went through some teething pains with it but not too bad except for spring failures on the right side of the engine. Contact Europa for the new exhaust system and clear up your problems, but expect it to cost about $1000 US or about 660 UK Pounds.
Bud
[quote] ---
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stranfaer(at)btinternet.c
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:31 pm Post subject: Gusset plates |
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Bud
The replacement stainless exhausts were closer to £1200 don't know what they are now, original steel systems were fabricated in Tibshelf Derbyshire I believe.
rgds
DJ
Sent to you from David Joyce
www.eastmidsspas.com
From: Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, 12 August 2013, 1:25
Subject: Re: Gusset plates
Jimmy,
Some time ago, the factory went to another exhaust manufacturer CKT Aero engineering and they did a good job of remanufacturing our exhaust with thicker, better stainless steel, better muffler supports and less stress on the mandrel bends of the pipes. CKT also makes systems for most of the Rotax powered kits in Europe. Too bad we all had the older exhaust sold to us before which cracked at the exhaust, pipes and everywhere for mostly harmonic reasons . The only problem with the CKT exhaust was the springs, which were standard motorcycle carbon steel type, now he makes a stainless steel spring to try to get better longevity. CKT stands behind their products and has taken care of me.
Note: In certified aircraft we put RTV or high temp red silicone on the springs to reduce vibration harmonics. I run a piece of safety wire through the spring and pull it up loosely. This keeps any fatigued springs from becoming FOD.
Some History:
The 912S harmonics cause the exhaust to move laterally a bit and that will fatigue crack in the bend of the exhaust of any system and if the springs were made tighter, the muffler supports cracked. We all know how bad the aluminum heat shield was. Also the 914 had some real problems but over time, metal bends went to welded seams and we have been trouble free. The original 912 exhaust was kept as light as possible, but the vibration and harmonics caused fatigue cracks at very low time. My first experience was with Ira Rampil's exhaust which cracked in about 4 places. Chris at CKT replaced the old exhaust with his and we went through some teething pains with it but not too bad except for spring failures on the right side of the engine. Contact Europa for the new exhaust system and clear up your problems, but expect it to cost about $1000 US or about 660 UK Pounds.
Bud
[quote] ---
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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europajimkelly(at)gmail.c
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:39 am Post subject: Gusset plates |
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Thanks Bud for the detailed explanation. Also David.
Rgds
Jimmy
On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 8:30 AM, DAVID JOYCE <stranfaer(at)btinternet.com>wrote:
[quote] Bud
The replacement stainless exhausts were closer to £1200 don't know what
they are now, original steel systems were fabricated in Tibshelf Derbyshire
I believe.
rgds
DJ
*Sent to you from David Joyce
www.eastmidsspas.com
*
*From:* Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com>
*To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com
*Sent:* Monday, 12 August 2013, 1:25
*Subject:* Re: Gusset plates
Jimmy,
Some time ago, the factory went to another exhaust manufacturer CKT Aero
engineering and they did a good job of remanufacturing our exhaust with
thicker, better stainless steel, better muffler supports and less stress on
the mandrel bends of the pipes. CKT also makes systems for most of the
Rotax powered kits in Europe. Too bad we all had the older exhaust sold to
us before which cracked at the exhaust, pipes and everywhere for mostly
harmonic reasons . The only problem with the CKT exhaust was the springs,
which were standard motorcycle carbon steel type, now he makes a stainless
steel spring to try to get better longevity. CKT stands behind their
products and has taken care of me.
Note: In certified aircraft we put RTV or high temp red silicone on the
springs to reduce vibration harmonics. I run a piece of safety wire
through the spring and pull it up loosely. This keeps any fatigued springs
from becoming FOD.
Some History:
The 912S harmonics cause the exhaust to move laterally a bit and that will
fatigue crack in the bend of the exhaust of any system and if the springs
were made tighter, the muffler supports cracked. We all know how bad the
aluminum heat shield was. Also the 914 had some real problems but over
time, metal bends went to welded seams and we have been trouble free. The
original 912 exhaust was kept as light as possible, but the vibration and
harmonics caused fatigue cracks at very low time. My first experience was
with Ira Rampil's exhaust which cracked in about 4 places. Chris at CKT
replaced the old exhaust with his and we went through some teething pains
with it but not too bad except for spring failures on the right side of the
engine. Contact Europa for the new exhaust system and clear up your
problems, but expect it to cost about $1000 US or about 660 UK Pounds.
Bud
---
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:34 am Post subject: Gusset plates |
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The company was in Somercotes, may have moved. Europa specified stainless but after a few cracked systems, they changed to mild steel without telling Europa. Burnt through is 50 hours. Then they stopped altogether; probably their insurers had a fit.
Graham
From: James Kelly <europajimkelly(at)gmail.com>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, 12 August 2013, 9:38
Subject: Re: Gusset plates
Thanks Bud for the detailed explanation. Also David.Rgds
Jimmy
On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 8:30 AM, DAVID JOYCE <stranfaer(at)btinternet.com (stranfaer(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
[quote]Bud
The replacement stainless exhausts were closer to £1200 don't know what they are now, original steel systems were fabricated in Tibshelf Derbyshire I believe.
rgds
DJ
Sent to you from David Joyce
www.eastmidsspas.com
From: Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, 12 August 2013, 1:25
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Gusset plates
Jimmy,
Some time ago, the factory went to another exhaust manufacturer CKT Aero engineering and they did a good job of remanufacturing our exhaust with thicker, better stainless steel, better muffler supports and less stress on the mandrel bends of the pipes. CKT also makes systems for most of the Rotax powered kits in Europe. Too bad we all had the older exhaust sold to us before which cracked at the exhaust, pipes and everywhere for mostly harmonic reasons . The only problem with the CKT exhaust was the springs, which were standard motorcycle carbon steel type, now he makes a stainless steel spring to try to get better longevity. CKT stands behind their products and has taken care of me.
Note: In certified aircraft we put RTV or high temp red silicone on the springs to reduce vibration harmonics. I run a piece of safety wire through the spring and pull it up loosely. This keeps any fatigued springs from becoming FOD.
Some History:
The 912S harmonics cause the exhaust to move laterally a bit and that will fatigue crack in the bend of the exhaust of any system and if the springs were made tighter, the muffler supports cracked. We all know how bad the aluminum heat shield was. Also the 914 had some real problems but over time, metal bends went to welded seams and we have been trouble free. The original 912 exhaust was kept as light as possible, but the vibration and harmonics caused fatigue cracks at very low time. My first experience was with Ira Rampil's exhaust which cracked in about 4 places. Chris at CKT replaced the old exhaust with his and we went through some teething pains with it but not too bad except for spring failures on the right side of the engine. Contact Europa for the new exhaust system and clear up your problems, but expect it to cost about $1000 US or about 660 UK Pounds.
Bud
[quote] ---
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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JonathanMilbank
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 391
Location: Aberdeen area
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:01 am Post subject: Re: Gusset plates |
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After 16 years with the 912UL engine in a Classic monowheel, I changed the undercarriage to tricycle. But the rolling resistance is much greater, particularly on grass, so I've bought a 912S to help me get into the air more easily.
My intention is to fit the replacement engine into the existing arrangements and to use the same old-style stainless steel exhaust system, which dangles at an angle rearwards beneath the engine.
This exhaust has served me well enough over 16 years, apart from a couple of fractures of the flange bolted to the left rear cylinder. My question to anyone with experience similar to mine, or anyone who's heard from others, is "Am I likely to have a severe increase in exhaust cracking problems?"
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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stranfaer(at)btinternet.c
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:28 pm Post subject: Gusset plates |
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Yep same company, head office now in Tibshelf, although think name changed and different owners etc etc.
In fact they made me a very nice exhaust for my old race car 
DJ
Sent to you from David Joyce
www.eastmidsspas.com
From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>
To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com" <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, 12 August 2013, 10:33
Subject: Re: Gusset plates
The company was in Somercotes, may have moved. Europa specified stainless but after a few cracked systems, they changed to mild steel without telling Europa. Burnt through is 50 hours. Then they stopped altogether; probably their insurers had a fit.
Graham
From: James Kelly <europajimkelly(at)gmail.com>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, 12 August 2013, 9:38
Subject: Re: Gusset plates
Thanks Bud for the detailed explanation. Also David.Rgds
Jimmy
On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 8:30 AM, DAVID JOYCE <stranfaer(at)btinternet.com (stranfaer(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
[quote]Bud
The replacement stainless exhausts were closer to £1200 don't know what they are now, original steel systems were fabricated in Tibshelf Derbyshire I believe.
rgds
DJ
Sent to you from David Joyce
http://www.eastmidsspas.com/
From: Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, 12 August 2013, 1:25
Subject: Re: Gusset plates
Jimmy,
Some time ago, the factory went to another exhaust manufacturer CKT Aero engineering and they did a good job of remanufacturing our exhaust with thicker, better stainless steel, better muffler supports and less stress on the mandrel bends of the pipes. CKT also makes systems for most of the Rotax powered kits in Europe. Too bad we all had the older exhaust sold to us before which cracked at the exhaust, pipes and everywhere for mostly harmonic reasons . The only problem with the CKT exhaust was the springs, which were standard motorcycle carbon steel type, now he makes a stainless steel spring to try to get better longevity. CKT stands behind their products and has taken care of me.
Note: In certified aircraft we put RTV or high temp red silicone on the springs to reduce vibration harmonics. I run a piece of safety wire through the spring and pull it up loosely. This keeps any fatigued springs from becoming FOD.
Some History:
The 912S harmonics cause the exhaust to move laterally a bit and that will fatigue crack in the bend of the exhaust of any system and if the springs were made tighter, the muffler supports cracked. We all know how bad the aluminum heat shield was. Also the 914 had some real problems but over time, metal bends went to welded seams and we have been trouble free. The original 912 exhaust was kept as light as possible, but the vibration and harmonics caused fatigue cracks at very low time. My first experience was with Ira Rampil's exhaust which cracked in about 4 places. Chris at CKT replaced the old exhaust with his and we went through some teething pains with it but not too bad except for spring failures on the right side of the engine. Contact Europa for the new exhaust system and clear up your problems, but expect it to cost about $1000 US or about 660 UK Pounds.
Bud
[quote] ---
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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