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Performance take off and landings.

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SIDESLIP

Joined: 14 Oct 2012
Posts: 78
Location: CYOO

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:24 pm Post subject: Performance take off and landings.

Anyone on here with a Rotax powered 601XL-B? What is the shortest runway you've used, and how did it work out? Grass of course. I want to attempt a 1800' runway with 75' obstacles at Either end. I KNOW i CAN land, but thé take off has me concerned.



Feedback?



Thanks!



Chad

_________________
C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:08 pm Post subject: Performance take off and landings.

Hi Chad,



I was thinking of just saying "Don't worry", but I decided that was an 

irresponsible answer to your question.



A better answer is to suggest you take a look at the FAA manual on 

flight test - AC90-89A.  It has lots of information you need for flying 

your new experimental airplane.  One of the first things it covers is 

the runway requirements based on specifics of your plane design.



Good luck,



Paul

Camas, WA

Zodiac XL - signed out of phase I last year.



On 8/15/2013 5:24 PM, SIDESLIP wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Anyone on here with a Rotax powered 601XL-B? What is the shortest runway you've used, and how did it work out? Grass of course. I want to attempt a 1800' runway with 75' obstacles at Either end. I KNOW i CAN land, but thé take off has me concerned.



 Feedback?



 Thanks!



 Chad



 --------

 C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406813#406813

SIDESLIP

Joined: 14 Oct 2012
Posts: 78
Location: CYOO

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Performance take off and landings.

Paul;



Thanks for the reply. It's not the first flight. I've got 30 plus hours on type, some on grass and some on long paved runways. A friend of mine has a 1800' strip I want to go into on the weekend. I know I can get it in, just not sure if I can "get it up"..... Lol. 



I'm going to try to head to a grass field that is 2200' long and try some short/soft field stuff there. See what the best I can get out of it with full fuel would be. I find that the traditional back elevator on the roll slows it down, from induced drag. If I lower the nose on the roll, it accelerates better. Ill test and report back. I want to know 110% for CERTAIN I can get back out safely. That's all. 



Chad

_________________
C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:44 pm Post subject: Performance take off and landings.

Hi Chad,



I have a Jabiru 3300, so I have considerably more power than your 

Rotax.  Still, my Zodiac gets airborne very quickly.  I've never 

measured the actual ground roll, but i would guess it is 300 or 400 feet.



I use 1/2 flaps for takeoff as a normal routine.  That gets the plane 

airborne quickly without getting it flying before the controls work well 

- the result if I take off with full flaps. The Zodiac will take off 

with no flaps but requires considerably more runway in that configuration.



Your 1800 foot runway should be enough to take off and land a couple of 

times before reaching the end.  That assumes the grass is dry.  If it is 

wet I would worry about the take off distance.



Good luck,



Paul



On 8/15/2013 7:02 PM, SIDESLIP wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Paul;



 Thanks for the reply. It's not the first flight. I've got 30 plus hours on type, some on grass and some on long paved runways. A friend of mine has a 1800' strip I want to go into on the weekend. I know I can get it in, just not sure if I can "get it up"..... Lol.



 I'm going to try to head to a grass field that is 2200' long and try some short/soft field stuff there. See what the best I can get out of it with full fuel would be. I find that the traditional back elevator on the roll slows it down, from induced drag. If I lower the nose on the roll, it accelerates better. Ill test and report back. I want to know 110% for CERTAIN I can get back out safely. That's all.



 Chad



 --------

 C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406823#406823

aprazer

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Boise, Idaho

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Performance take off and landings.

Chad,

Play special attention to "Density Altitude".

What are the performance figures that you compiled for your POH?

Early morning (sun rise) take-off/landings are far safer!

10:00 am should be your cut-off time during the summer!

Blue skys ahead,

Mack

_________________
The poh-oh-unemployed farm boy from Idaho

SIDESLIP

Joined: 14 Oct 2012
Posts: 78
Location: CYOO

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Performance take off and landings.

Hey guys. I didn't create the POH. Bought this airplane from the original builder. I'd have to double check, but I believe at gross, the take off is around 800-1000' on grass over a 50. Landings I think are around 600'. Like I said, the runway is 1800-2000' but there is 75' obstacles at both ends, and a WICKED hump in the middle. The owner had landed his 206 there without issue apparently. That I can't see personally, but so he says. I'm going to another grass field to practice short/soft field stuff. Ill know for certain how much runway it'll take. I know I can get in and out just fine off this 2200' runway even mid day no flaps. After reading these messages, I realized I've never even used flaps on a single takeoff! Never had a call for them....



Does it reduced the take off roll by a lot?



Chad

_________________
C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:46 pm Post subject: Performance take off and landings.

Hi Chad,



As you move to higher performance planes you will get used to using 

flaps for takeoff - all the high performance planes require them.  For 

example in a C-182 with 20 degrees of flaps and full power you can be 

airborne in perhaps 500 feet (not fully loaded) but without flaps you 

will wonder why after 2000 feet you are still on the ground.



I flew a Tecnam Echo Super (Rotax 100 hp) that also called for flaps for 

every takeoff.  It had a short takeoff ground roll and climbed nicely.  

Sadly, I never learned how to get it to come down.  It floated forever 

and was a really long glider.  From the normal specs it looks a lot like 

a Zodiac XL but the XL comes down a lot better.



On my plane I have never measured the takeoff ground roll but it seems 

to just jump in the air with half flaps and even faster with full 

flaps.  However, full flaps has it airborne at such a slow speed there 

is little control authority and it seems messy.  Half flaps allows nice 

control as you leave the ground and climb over that obstacle at the end 

of the runway before removing the flaps. I rarely take off with no flaps 

- only when I forget to put them on.  I would guess the ground roll is 2 

or 3 times as long as with half flaps.  That is still less than 1000 

feet but why not get the wheels off the ground as quickly as reasonable?



Paul

Camas, WA

Zodiac XL - N773PM



On 8/16/2013 2:17 PM, SIDESLIP wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hey guys. I didn't create the POH. Bought this airplane from the original builder. I'd have to double check, but I believe at gross, the take off is around 800-1000' on grass over a 50. Landings I think are around 600'. Like I said, the runway is 1800-2000' but there is 75' obstacles at both ends, and a WICKED hump in the middle. The owner had landed his 206 there without issue apparently. That I can't see personally, but so he says. I'm going to another grass field to practice short/soft field stuff. Ill know for certain how much runway it'll take. I know I can get in and out just fine off this 2200' runway even mid day no flaps. After reading these messages, I realized I've never even used flaps on a single takeoff! Never had a call for them....



 Does it reduced the take off roll by a lot?



 Chad



 --------

 C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406881#406881

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Performance take off and landings.

are your 75 foot obstacles right at the end of the runway or set back a bit?



Also, I would suggest using some elevator to take the weight off the nosewheel but you want to avoid nose high takeoff rolls due to the additional drag. Flaps will get you off the ground quicker but may reduce your rate of climb. Your idea of practicing on a longer strip is a good one.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

aprazer

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Boise, Idaho

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Performance take off and landings.

Chad,

206's along with 182's are considered the workhorse aircraft in Idaho as they are good performers with above average load weights. 

Idaho's average airport elevation is approximately 4500 feet with the lowest elevations along the Snake River 735 feet (at) Snake River Sea Plane Base (78U) (at) Lewiston to 7920 feet (at) Copper Basin (0U2) 12 miles SW of Mackay, Idaho.

Cabin Creek (I08) is a popular 1750 X 40 turf airstrip 37 miles West of Salmon, Idaho along the River-of-No-Return (you know the river that Lewis and Clark couldn't navigate). It is an one way strip with a small dogleg - lower strip elevation is 4157 feet and upper elevation is 4289 feet. Land uphill and take off downhill.

This summer, Idaho has been experiencing above average temperatures of 100+/- degrees - and right now the state is literately on fire!

Now you know why it is a good practice to fly from sun-up to 10:00 am.  

Good idea to know your plane - XL's are good performers, but Get checked out before flying to difficult airports!

Mack

_________________
The poh-oh-unemployed farm boy from Idaho

SIDESLIP

Joined: 14 Oct 2012
Posts: 78
Location: CYOO

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: Performance take off and landings.

****** UPDATE!!!!!!!



Here is the flight test today. I tried EVERY combination, from full flaps to half flaps to 10 degrees of flaps. Tried holding in some elevator, and in ALL these cases, it ADDED 15-20% longer run before airborne then no flaps at all! I landed at the fore mentioned field today, with 24 degrees C, 1100' density altitude. Weighing 1100lbs. Rotax 912S with the air box. All attempts were full throttle, brakes on, then release. Best I could muster by a long shot was without flaps. It accelerates like a monster, and I was off under 1000' just.

If I used the flaps, I might have had trouble. Now, the prop is a warp drive pitched for cruise. It doesn't bite in well until I'm doing 20 knots or greater, then it takes off (again, without flaps). 



1100lbs, 1100' density altitude.



Configuration Landing: full flaps, 60kt approach. A low 60kts. A little power on final to pull it in flat and control the airspeed and decent. Landed 500-600' to fully stopped maximum braking.



Configuration Take off: no flaps at all. Hold brakes, FULL POWER, and wait for max RPM. RELEASE BRAKE, holding just enough elevator to keep the nose wheel from digging in, keeps the plane clean for fast acceleration. Rotate as soon as the airplane is ready (58kts) then rotate into ground effect for maybe 2-3 seconds. CLIMB like a homesick angel. Saw 1100'/min. It cruises with this prop at between 100-110kts comfortably.



Anyways, I'm finding my take-offs around the 1000-1400' range depending on loading. My gross is 1300lbs. I was 200lbs light. Not sure what'll happen with another 180-195lbs but guessing ill still have enough space. Might find out tomorrow.



Cheers for now and thanks again,

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! I know my flight instructor said anything over 10 degrees flap on a lightly loaded Cessna 172M and it struggles like crazy to get off the ground.



Odd......



Chad

_________________
C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B

aprazer

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Boise, Idaho

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Performance take off and landings.

Chad,

Thanks for the update. 

You might try setting the flaps even with (same deflection as) the ailerons and see how your bird performs on take-off.

Some pilots start a ground roll without flaps - then roll them in once they have some speed built up.

Have you thought about practicing on a longer runway without obstacles?

Blue Skys ahead,

Mack

_________________
The poh-oh-unemployed farm boy from Idaho

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