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Wing lift and drag pins

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spcialeffects

Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 306
Location: Kent

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:59 am Post subject: Wing lift and drag pins

Hi all, so im building a classic and am just finishing off my wings. In the combined manual chapter 26 it says that the holes for the wing pins are already drilled and tapped (you XS people dont know what your missing out on!! ) but i need to drill and tap mine myself, so does anyone have the original instructions for measurements to position the pins? Many thanks

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:54 pm Post subject: Wing lift and drag pins

Do you mean the 2 lift/drag pins in the wing root? If so I can scan and send

the appropriate pages.  However, prepare yourself for a shock!  Check out

mandatory mod 74 on the Europa website.  The rear pin needs to be changed

for a longer one with a big washer and nut on the back inside the wing.

There is a variation of the instructions for mod 74 which allows you to go

in through the rear close out.



Let me know if you need the pages and I will scan and send in the morning.



Regards



Pete 



--

nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:04 pm Post subject: Wing lift and drag pins

Here you go. The information you need is to be found in Chapter 10 - 67 

of the original Fuselage manual - looks like it was overlooked when the 

"Combined Build Manual" was compiled. I have scanned both pages for you 

and also included the mandatory mod that you will need to incorporate in 

your Classic Wing.



Nigel

On 17/08/2013 20:59, spcialeffects wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi all, so im building a classic and am just finishing off my wings. In the combined manual chapter 26 it says that the holes for the wing pins are already drilled and tapped (you XS people dont know what your missing out on!! ) but i need to drill and tap mine myself, so does anyone have the original instructions? Many thanks





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spcialeffects

Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 306
Location: Kent

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Wing lift and drag pins

Thanks Nigel its that first page that I'm after. I couldn't remember who sent me the wing layup papers (using the uni cloth) before (thanks again). I am doing mod 74 but there is no way of incorporating this before having skinned the foam so I have to cut a hole in the skin to fit the mod. Fortunately it hasn't got any filler on it so this makes it a little easier.

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:21 pm Post subject: Wing lift and drag pins

Just another memory from the very distant past - we also had to change the

front pin for a longer one.  Be worth checking that the front pin you have

is the correct size.  Can't find it in the mod list on the Europa site but I

think it was introduced 2000 ish.



--

nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:04 am Post subject: Wing lift and drag pins

Actually earlier than than Pete, The long pin mod date was 14th Sept '95 

and can be found as part of the Issue 10 Fuselage manual.



Nigel



On 18/08/2013 08:20, Pete Lawless wrote:

[quote] 



 Just another memory from the very distant past - we also had to change the

 front pin for a longer one.  Be worth checking that the front pin you have

 is the correct size.  Can't find it in the mod list on the Europa site but I

 think it was introduced 2000 ish.



 --

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:17 am Post subject: Wing lift and drag pins

Hi! All , 

On subject of the lift pins and mods. I would like to offer another fact

that the front lift pins were also changed to upgrade the material they were

made from.

Regards

Bob Harrison  G-PTAG Kit 337  Classic /XS hybrid now with over 1000 hours on

the airframe.



--

spcialeffects

Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 306
Location: Kent

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:36 am Post subject: Re: Wing lift and drag pins

One other question please. The instruction page above says to drill the flap pin in the middle of the plates but the combined manual gives an off centre position. Why is there a difference of position and which is best to use?

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:23 am Post subject: Wing lift and drag pins

Sorry, don't see to have a name for you!  I would very 

much advise putting the pin in the middle of the plates. 

When William Mills plane broke up in. Mid air on a Max 

weight VNe dive there were two things that failed and it 

was never decided which was the primary factor, (although 

I prefer the notion of the tail plane fixation having 

failed). However one was that a front lift pin had been 

drilled into the front edges of the 3 plates in the wing 

root, reaching the edge of one and overlapping another, 

which meant that it was taking considerable strains on a 

metal to fibreglass joint which is not in the owner's long 

term interests! That is not exactly a reason for being 

central but a very good reason for not being anywhere near 

the edge as I dare say that you cannot know precisely 

where the deeper plates are situated.

Regards, David Joyce, G- XSDJ



On Sun, 18 Aug 2013 04:36:20 -0700

  "spcialeffects" <spcialeffects(at)aol.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<spcialeffects(at)aol.com>

 

 One other question please. The instruction page above 

says to drill the flap pin in the middle of the plates 

but the combined manual gives an off centre position. Why 

is there a difference of position and which is best to 

use?

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406953#406953

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:27 am Post subject: Wing lift and drag pins

Afternoon All



I recommend the following link for the official report into the in flight

break up.



http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Europa,%20G-HOFC%2005-08.pdf



Regards



Pete



--

MJKTuck(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:10 pm Post subject: Wing lift and drag pins

So the purpose of diving to VNe as part of the annual inspection is to 

determine what?



Martin Tuck

Europa N152MT

Wichita, Kansas



On 8/19/2013 8:25 AM, Pete Lawless wrote:

[quote] 



 Afternoon All



 I recommend the following link for the official report into the in flight

 break up.



 http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Europa,%20G-HOFC%2005-08.pdf



 Regards



 Pete



 --

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:22 am Post subject: Wing lift and drag pins

On 08/20/2013 02:08 AM, Martin Tuck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   So the purpose of diving to VNe as part of the annual inspection is to

 determine what?


	


To see whether the aircraft can handle it. The test obviously fulfilled

its purpose.



On the other hand I would not feel comfortable cruising in an aircraft

at 140+ knots without knowing whether it can not even handle 163 knots

without breaking apart.

I have to admit I flew mine one time inadvertently shortly past Vne

(attempting to get down to an assigned altitude before entering the busy

Brussels TMA while being distracted by the radio and navigation at the

same time) but apart from the ASI needle position there was nothing

different than flying at lower speeds.



How was the Vne speed actually established? Why was it 163 and not 160,

or 170? I don't have the impression that the speed where flutter or

other bad things occur has been determined by actual flight- or wind

tunnel tests. I have seen other aircraft with exactly the same Vne

number. Is this value of 163 knots some sort of default value when no

factual data is available?



(No, I'm not voluntary going to explore this area. I'm just wondering,

especially because the cruise speed is so close to the Vne and the

Europa can build up speed very quickly when the pilot is distracted. I

also wonder what likely is to happen when the real, likely still

unknown, Vne is reached).



Frans

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:09 am Post subject: Wing lift and drag pins

Frans, As I understand it VNe (which for me is 165 kts) is 

90% of Vdf or demonstrated flight diving speed so that I 

guess Europa  flew the prototypes at 183 kts to give the 

rest of us a bit of a margin for error. They probably 

thought that with the designed engines it wasn't likely 

that folk would want to  or be able to go much faster and 

design theory suggested that 183kts would be OK, always 

assuming of course that the plane was constructed 

properly. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ



On Tue, 20 Aug 2013 14:21:26 +0200

  Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<frans(at)privatepilots.nl>

 

 On 08/20/2013 02:08 AM, Martin Tuck wrote:

 

> So the purpose of diving to VNe as part of the annual 

>inspection is to

> determine what?

 

 To see whether the aircraft can handle it. The test 

obviously fulfilled

 its purpose.

 

 On the other hand I would not feel comfortable cruising 

in an aircraft

 at 140+ knots without knowing whether it can not even 

handle 163 knots

 without breaking apart.

 I have to admit I flew mine one time inadvertently 

shortly past Vne

 (attempting to get down to an assigned altitude before 

entering the busy

 Brussels TMA while being distracted by the radio and 

navigation at the

 same time) but apart from the ASI needle position there 

was nothing

 different than flying at lower speeds.

 

 How was the Vne speed actually established? Why was it 

163 and not 160,

 or 170? I don't have the impression that the speed where 

flutter or

 other bad things occur has been determined by actual 

flight- or wind

 tunnel tests. I have seen other aircraft with exactly 

the same Vne

 number. Is this value of 163 knots some sort of default 

value when no

 factual data is available?

 

 (No, I'm not voluntary going to explore this area. I'm 

just wondering,

 especially because the cruise speed is so close to the 

Vne and the

 Europa can build up speed very quickly when the pilot is 

distracted. I

 also wonder what likely is to happen when the real, 

likely still

 unknown, Vne is reached).

 

Frans

 

 

 

 

 

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Forums!

Admin.

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:10 am Post subject: Wing lift and drag pins

Dave, (or anyone I guess)



Do you happen to know what, into choosing a demonstrated design dive speed (Vdf)?

I assume that there some structural consideration for choosing this number?

 



Flutter would be a consideration

Paul



On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 8:08 AM, David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>

  

 

 Frans, As I understand it VNe (which for me is 165 kts) is 90% of Vdf or demonstrated flight diving speed so that I guess Europa  flew the prototypes at 183 kts to give the rest of us a bit of a margin for error. They probably thought that with the designed engines it wasn't likely that folk would want to  or be able to go much faster and design theory suggested that 183kts would be OK, always assuming of course that the plane was constructed properly. Regards, David Joyce,

  

 

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