 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
karolamy(at)roadrunner.co
Guest
|
 Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:44 pm Post subject: Alternator Belt |
 |
|
Just wanted to share the following with all regarding alternator belt findings: Using Vans supplied Plane Power Alternator, and Vans supplied I0-540 Engine with an LW 12227 double pulley flywheel, my findings are that a Gates XL 7325 is the belt of choice. The Alternator came in a fairly recently purchased FF kit (few months ago) and the Install Instructions say: "For 7 1/2 inch ring gear support pulley locally purchase XL7300 Gates (not supplied)". A Dayco 15355 (Gates XL 7355) does come with the kit but it is way too long and meant for a 9-3/4 inch ring gear support pulley.
After some web searching on VAF I found that this discussion had been been covered not too awful long ago with the conclusion being that a Gates XL7328 was the belt of choice. I bought both a 7328 and a 7320 (only 3/4 inch difference in total length) and tried them both. First tried the 7320 which is 32 5/8 inch. No matter which way you held your jaw it wasn't going to go on - not without hurting something! The 7328 (33 3/8 inch) did go on but I found that I could tighten it all the way to maximum travel on the V-1004 arm and still rotate the pulley too easily without the engine/flywheel turning. That's for a new belt. Once broken in and the belt has stretched, it would be out of capable travel adjustment range. What is the BIG DEAL you say? NOT interested in removing the spinner and the prop just to install a different belt after one hour of flight is my answer. Back to the store, got an XL 7325 and bingo - fits on the flywheel and alt. with just a bit of difficulty, but once tightened there was still about 1/4 to 3/8 inch travel on the V-1004 arm for adjustment. Log book size entry time!
For those that are unfamiliar with how to, or how much to tighten the belt, PlanePower does include instructions that are good on their website. If I might add a tip that has worked well for me over the last 15 years: A new belt is a bit slippery as NEW. This will change over the first few hours of operation - the belt will also stretch a bit after these first few hours. So, what I like to do for the initial setting is snug the alternator down to the point of being able to put a 1/2 inch breaker bar with appropriate socket ( 3/4 inch - PlanePower) on the alternator center nut and in turning the breaker bar just slightly (10 - 20 degrees) it should almost turn the flywheel, hence the engine crank. For now this is good enough. Tighten and safety wire. Then after just a couple hours of flight and the belt is stretched to basically final form and no longer slippery, I like to tighten it just enough to perform the same procedure as above but have it actually turn the alt. and crank together, no slipping. No over tightening! Also these rules do not apply to an oil or fluid contaminated belt!
If the belt is tightened too much, we will have alternator bearing and/or other issues, and if we don't tighten it enough it can slip causing premature belt wear and possibly poor to little output at the alternator.
***When making these adjustments be sure to put a few 1/2 inch bolts/washers in the crank to hold the flywheel in place (as in symmetrical with the crank flange) unless of course the prop is already bolted on.
SORRY if this has already been posted somewhere, I couldn't find it and thought it might help some of you. It's also during the weekend, so PlanePower is closed - they may have already discovered these Gates numbers, I'll give them a call tomorrow…… One thing is for sure - their recommended Gates XL7300 would not have worked on my set up! The Revisions from Plane Power that I have are dated: 8/27/12 - maybe they have an updated one.
Rich Hansen
RV-6A sold
Rv-10 Fitting Cowl, Panel Ordered!
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:43 am Post subject: Alternator Belt |
|
|
Make sure you check the alignment of the alternator and the flywheel
pulleys. There have been instances where the spacers provided with the
alternator place the alternator pulley forward or aft of the correct
placement. There are single and dual pulley flywheels and its possible to
have them staggered.
Just check it now before you get to first flight.
I have personally seen two instances where the pulleys were not aligned.
Jim Combs
N312F - Flying (540+ Hours)
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Karol Hansen <karolamy(at)roadrunner.com>wrote:
[quote]
Just wanted to share the following with all regarding alternator belt
findings: Using Vans supplied Plane Power Alternator, and Vans supplied
I0-540 Engine with an LW 12227 double pulley flywheel, my findings are that
a Gates XL 7325 is the belt of choice. The Alternator came in a fairly
recently purchased FF kit (few months ago) and the Install Instructions
say: "For 7 1/2 inch ring gear support pulley locally purchase XL7300
Gates (not supplied)". A Dayco 15355 (Gates XL 7355) does come with the
kit but it is way too long and meant for a 9-3/4 inch ring gear support
pulley.
After some web searching on VAF I found that this discussion had been been
covered not too awful long ago with the conclusion being that a Gates
XL7328 was the belt of choice. I bought both a 7328 and a 7320 (only 3/4
inch difference in total length) and tried them both. First tried the 7320
which is 32 5/8 inch. No matter which way you held your jaw it wasn't
going to go on - not without hurting something! The 7328 (33 3/8 inch) did
go on but I found that I could tighten it all the way to maximum travel on
the V-1004 arm and still rotate the pulley too easily without the
engine/flywheel turning. That's for a new belt. Once broken in and the
belt has stretched, it would be out of capable travel adjustment range.
What is the BIG DEAL you say? NOT interested in removing the spinner and
the prop just to install a different belt after one hour of flight is my
answer. Back to the store, got an XL 7325 and bingo - fits on the flywheel
and alt. with just a bit of difficult!
y, but once tightened there was still about 1/4 to 3/8 inch travel on the
V-1004 arm for adjustment. Log book size entry time!
For those that are unfamiliar with how to, or how much to tighten the
belt, PlanePower does include instructions that are good on their website
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
RV-10 -> N312F - Flying as of 12/2008 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:56 am Post subject: Alternator Belt |
|
|
There are also single belt flywheels that look like they fit two belts ....... they don't.
Linn
On 8/19/2013 9:42 AM, Jim Combs wrote:
[quote] Make sure you check the alignment of the alternator and the flywheel pulleys. There have been instances where the spacers provided with the alternator place the alternator pulley forward or aft of the correct placement. There are single and dual pulley flywheels and its possible to have them staggered.
Just check it now before you get to first flight.
I have personally seen two instances where the pulleys were not aligned.
Jim Combs
N312F - Flying (540+ Hours)
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Karol Hansen <karolamy(at)roadrunner.com (karolamy(at)roadrunner.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Karol Hansen <karolamy(at)roadrunner.com (karolamy(at)roadrunner.com)>
Just wanted to share the following with all regarding alternator belt findings: Using Vans supplied Plane Power Alternator, and Vans supplied I0-540 Engine with an LW 12227 double pulley flywheel, my findings are that a Gates XL 7325 is the belt of choice. The Alternator came in a fairly recently purchased FF kit (few months ago) and the Install Instructions say: "For 7 1/2 inch ring gear support pulley locally purchase XL7300 Gates (not supplied)". A Dayco 15355 (Gates XL 7355) does come with the kit but it is way too long and meant for a 9-3/4 inch ring gear support pulley.
After some web searching on VAF I found that this discussion had been been covered not too awful long ago with the conclusion being that a Gates XL7328 was the belt of choice. I bought both a 7328 and a 7320 (only 3/4 inch difference in total length) and tried them both. First tried the 7320 which is 32 5/8 inch. No matter which way you held your jaw it wasn't going to go on - not without hurting something! The 7328 (33 3/8 inch) did go on but I found that I could tighten it all the way to maximum travel on the V-1004 arm and still rotate the pulley too easily without the engine/flywheel turning. That's for a new belt. Once broken in and the belt has stretched, it would be out of capable travel adjustment range. What is the BIG DEAL you say? NOT interested in removing the spinner and the prop just to install a different belt after one hour of flight is my answer. Back to the store, got an XL 7325 and bingo - fits on the flywheel and alt. with just a bit of difficult!
y, but once tightened there was still about 1/4 to 3/8 inch travel on the V-1004 arm for adjustment. Log book size entry time!
For those that are unfamiliar with how to, or how much to tighten the belt, PlanePower does include instructions that are good on their website. If I might add a tip that has worked well for me over the last 15 years: A new belt is a bit slippery as NEW. This will change over the first few hours of operation - the belt will also stretch a bit after these first few hours. So, what I like to do for the initial setting is snug the alternator down to the point of being able to put a 1/2 inch breaker bar with appropriate socket ( 3/4 inch - PlanePower) on the alternator center nut and in turning the breaker bar just slightly (10 - 20 degrees) it should almost turn the flywheel, hence the engine crank. For now this is good enough. Tighten and safety wire. Then after just a couple hours of flight and the belt is stretched to basically final form and no longer slippery, I like to tighten it just enough to perform the same procedure as above but have it actually turn the alt.!
and crank together, no slipping. No over tightening! Also these rules do not apply to an oil or fluid contaminated belt!
If the belt is tightened too much, we will have alternator bearing and/or other issues, and if we don't tighten it enough it can slip causing premature belt wear and possibly poor to little output at the alternator.
***When making these adjustments be sure to put a few 1/2 inch bolts/washers in the crank to hold the flywheel in place (as in symmetrical with the crank flange) unless of course the prop is already bolted on.
SORRY if this has already been posted somewhere, I couldn't find it and thought it might help some of you. It's also during the weekend, so PlanePower is closed - they may have already discovered these Gates numbers, I'll give them a call tomorrow…… One thing is for sure - their recommended Gates XL7300 would not have worked on my set up! The Revisions from Plane Power that I have are dated: 8/27/12 - maybe they have an updated one.
Rich Hansen
RV-6A sold
Rv-10 Fitting Cowl, Panel Ordered!
===========
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
08/19/13 [b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Belt |
|
|
If you want more than 'feel', use a torque wrench instead of the breaker bar. Plane Power and Lycoming list torque limits.
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
karolamy(at)roadrunner.co
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:40 pm Post subject: Alternator Belt |
|
|
Correct Bob on torque, and correct Jim on alignment.
FOLLOW-UP:
Did speak to Plane Power today. They were not aware of belt size issues or alignment issues. They said that they would contact Vans to see what else needs to be done between the two of them. PP said that they did redesign the u-bracket and some other things (not too long ago) to accommodate Vans change to the Lycoming 2 grove pulley that was requested primarily by the Brazil builders.
Regarding alignment: My mounted alt. sits forward approx .125 of where it should be. After hours of waiting on the phone for Vans, or talking to Plane Power, I'm tired of waiting so will just shave off .125 of the rear 1001 spacer and add 2 washers in the front. I'll add the same two washers at the adjustment bracket.
I also did find today 6 pages on VAF regarding similar issues - (see RV-10 Alternator Alignment Issues) These seem to have started about Oct. 2011 - it is hard to believe these issues are still not resolved. Some refer to Vans having a different install kit with different spacers for $30.00? Of course, no where to be found on Vans website or parts cat.
Yet one MORE issue is the #7 bolt placement. The Plane Power instructions have you placing the head of the bolt in from the front. On mine, utilizing the aforementioned newer style U-bracket, the bolt hits the ring gear and will not be removable without dropping the bolts that retain the U-bracket, or taking the prop off - should the Alternator ever need servicing! Neither a great option, so at this point i will be installing the bolt from the rear, thus placing the washer and securing nut in the front. Don't have cowl fit yet so don't know if this will work. Anybody please chime in if they tried this and it did, or didn't work?
Regarding belt size, I stick to my guns, for my application the 7325 is the ticket…..
Will post anything of value other than, " that's the first we've heard of that" !
Rich
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rv10pro(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:44 am Post subject: Alternator Belt |
|
|
Plan on drilling the nut and bolt end to secure with safety wire the reverse oriented bolt. You should be fine.
John Cox
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 5:37 PM, Karol Hansen <karolamy(at)roadrunner.com (karolamy(at)roadrunner.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: Karol Hansen <karolamy(at)roadrunner.com (karolamy(at)roadrunner.com)>
Correct Bob on torque, and correct Jim on alignment.
FOLLOW-UP:
Did speak to Plane Power today. They were not aware of belt size issues or alignment issues. They said that they would contact Vans to see what else needs to be done between the two of them. PP said that they did redesign the u-bracket and some other things (not too long ago) to accommodate Vans change to the Lycoming 2 grove pulley that was requested primarily by the Brazil builders.
Regarding alignment: My mounted alt. sits forward approx .125 of where it should be. After hours of waiting on the phone for Vans, or talking to Plane Power, I'm tired of waiting so will just shave off .125 of the rear 1001 spacer and add 2 washers in the front. I'll add the same two washers at the adjustment bracket.
I also did find today 6 pages on VAF regarding similar issues - (see RV-10 Alternator Alignment Issues) These seem to have started about Oct. 2011 - it is hard to believe these issues are still not resolved. Some refer to Vans having a different install kit with different spacers for $30.00? Of course, no where to be found on Vans website or parts cat.
Yet one MORE issue is the #7 bolt placement. The Plane Power instructions have you placing the head of the bolt in from the front. On mine, utilizing the aforementioned newer style U-bracket, the bolt hits the ring gear and will not be removable without dropping the bolts that retain the U-bracket, or taking the prop off - should the Alternator ever need servicing! Neither a great option, so at this point i will be installing the bolt from the rear, thus placing the washer and securing nut in the front. Don't have cowl fit yet so don't know if this will work. Anybody please chime in if they tried this and it did, or didn't work?
Regarding belt size, I stick to my guns, for my application the 7325 is the ticket…..
Will post anything of value other than, " that's the first we've heard of that" !
Rich
===========
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
charliewaffles
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 18
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Alternator Belt |
|
|
Call Vans and tell them you need the Plane Power Alternator Adapter Spacer kit. Its not listed in the parts catalog but the tech guys will know what you need for the RV10.
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
karolamy(at)roadrunner.co
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:52 am Post subject: Alternator Belt |
|
|
Thank you Charlie. Did take 10 minutes last night and shaved off .125 of the rear spacer, added 2 washers in the front as well as at the bracket and as expected, now a perfect fit and alignment. Because of your post Charlie I did try Vans again this morning and this time got right through - they did say they had a spacer kit specifically for the RV-10. I ordered it anyway, and strongly suggested that it would be helpful and the right thing to do to include those parts in the FF kit or any Alt. kit ordered for the RV-10. Just put it in the kits and change the price if you have to - its only a few dollars!
Rich
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rleffler
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:36 am Post subject: Alternator Belt |
|
|
Rich,
Everyone but Vans agrees with you. I'm still astonished that if you buy the engine and fwf kit from vans, they expect you to know that you have to order the bushings. Plus pay $30 for them.
Bob
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 20, 2013, at 1:51 PM, Karol Hansen <karolamy(at)roadrunner.com> wrote:
Thank you Charlie. Did take 10 minutes last night and shaved off .125 of the rear spacer, added 2 washers in the front as well as at the bracket and as expected, now a perfect fit and alignment. Because of your post Charlie I did try Vans again this morning and this time got right through - they did say they had a spacer kit specifically for the RV-10. I ordered it anyway, and strongly suggested that it would be helpful and the right thing to do to include those parts in the FF kit or any Alt. kit ordered for the RV-10. Just put it in the kits and change the price if you have to - its only a few dollars!
Rich
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rv10flyer
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Belt |
|
|
| karolamy(at)roadrunner.co wrote: | Thank you Charlie. Did take 10 minutes last night and shaved off .125 of the rear spacer, added 2 washers in the front as well as at the bracket and as expected, now a perfect fit and alignment. Because of your post Charlie I did try Vans again this morning and this time got right through - they did say they had a spacer kit specifically for the RV-10. I ordered it anyway, and strongly suggested that it would be helpful and the right thing to do to include those parts in the FF kit or any Alt. kit ordered for the RV-10. Just put it in the kits and change the price if you have to - its only a few dollars!
Rich |
Yes, my mod and belt size still runs fine. Plane Power and Van's were made aware of this issue 2 yrs ago by at least Bob and myself. Wonder if all of those plans errors still exist 1000 tail kits later?
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Wayne G. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:05 pm Post subject: Alternator Belt |
|
|
On 8/23/2013 5:31 PM, rv10flyer wrote:
| Quote: |
karolamy(at)roadrunner.co wrote:
> Thank you Charlie. Did take 10 minutes last night and shaved off .125 of the rear spacer, added 2 washers in the front as well as at the bracket and as expected, now a perfect fit and alignment. Because of your post Charlie I did try Vans again this morning and this time got right through - they did say they had a spacer kit specifically for the RV-10. I ordered it anyway, and strongly suggested that it would be helpful and the right thing to do to include those parts in the FF kit or any Alt. kit ordered for the RV-10. Just put it in the kits and change the price if you have to - its only a few dollars!
>
> Rich
Yes, my mod and belt size still runs fine. Plane Power and Van's were made aware of this issue 2 yrs ago by at least Bob and myself. Wonder if all of those plans errors still exist 1000 tail kits later?
I don't think so. But my case is a little special. My alternator came
|
in a box .... by itself. No mounting hardware, no belt, no installation
instructions .... just the alternator. I called Vans and got the
biggest run-around ..... and no satisfaction. They told me to call
Plane Power.
I have friends at Plane Power/Skytek and they stepped up and made me
whole. Once I got the parts everything went together and fit just fine.
Since I didn't buy the alternator from Plane Power I expected Vans to
take care of the problem ..... I was wrong. I sure don't have a good
feeling about Vans customer service now.
Linn
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:48 pm Post subject: Alternator Belt |
|
|
Hmm, let me guess, you must have talked to some unnamed support person whose name starts with initials KS. AKA "we have never heard of that before"
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com (flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com (flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com)>
I don't think so. But my case is a little special. My alternator came in a box .... by itself. No mounting hardware, no belt, no installation instructions .... just the alternator. I called Vans and got the biggest run-around ..... and no satisfaction. They told me to call Plane Power.
I have friends at Plane Power/Skytek and they stepped up and made me whole. Once I got the parts everything went together and fit just fine.
Since I didn't buy the alternator from Plane Power I expected Vans to take care of the problem ..... I was wrong. I sure don't have a good feeling about Vans customer service now.
Linn
====================================
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
====================================
http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
--
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
