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endspeed(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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 Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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Bruce, I know of no airliner that has a vacuum
artificial horizon. If there is one you can point out
to me I am all ears. Bob Sultzbach
--- Bruce Gray <Bruce(at)glasair.org> wrote:
[quote] OK, I've been in enough pissing contests on this
subject that I don't want
another one. Do whatever floats your boat.
Just remember, the big iron guys have studied this
issue for years and
mega-bucks. I've seen reports of 5 tube EFIS
airliners going dark in IFR
where the only thing left was a flashlight and a
vacuum ADI.
I have a 75k panel in my Glasair III and no EFIS. I
wonder why?
Bruce
www.glasair.org
--
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endspeed(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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Hi Bruce, This was not an EFIS failure but an
electrical failure that you have quoted. Furthermore,
having over 6000 odd hours in this aircraft I can tell
you where to start looking for this kind of failure in
the DC buses. It is a "Fate IS the Hunter" scenario
but the DC buses have a row of circuit breakers just
to the aft and right side of the copilot's
seat...right where he slides his flight kit into
position next to his seat. I have seen this row of
breakers blown out by an errant flight kit and guess
what, all hell breaks loose in the DC buses when this
row of breakers is damaged. So to sum it up, if you
interrupt power to an efis it will cease to operate
but it did not fail. It was an electrical failure and
I'll bet a beer a copilot's flight kit caused it.
Cheers, Bob Sultzbach
--- Bruce Gray <Bruce(at)glasair.org> wrote:
[quote] Air/martinair-summary.html
Bruce
www.glasair.org
--
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endspeed(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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Randy, There are many DC buses in a 767. There is very
little in common here with what we are flying in RV's.
I will agree though, it is nice to have access to
your DC power when you need it. An E-bus is a nice
feature for truly essential items but if one gets
carried away, why have a master switch at all? The
more items you put on the E-bus, the less of an E-bus
it becomes. Fly safely, Bob Sultzbach
--- Brinker <brinker(at)cox-internet.com> wrote:
[quote] It would seem they had no control over
their dc bus. I would say this is a good reason for
anyone building an airplane to go with a pilot
operated e-bus.
Randy
---
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khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:44 am Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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It doesn't matter why the EFIS fails - it could be EFIS failure, it
could be electrical failure. It could be a lightening strike, etc.
You have to assume it could fail someday, and you should have
sufficient other equipment to get back on the ground.
My EFIS is backed up by round-dial ASI, altimeter and VSI, a turn and
bank and a wing leveler.
Kevin Horton
On 12 Jun 2006, at 23:10, Robert Sultzbach wrote:
[quote]
<endspeed(at)yahoo.com>
Hi Bruce, This was not an EFIS failure but an
electrical failure that you have quoted. Furthermore,
having over 6000 odd hours in this aircraft I can tell
you where to start looking for this kind of failure in
the DC buses. It is a "Fate IS the Hunter" scenario
but the DC buses have a row of circuit breakers just
to the aft and right side of the copilot's
seat...right where he slides his flight kit into
position next to his seat. I have seen this row of
breakers blown out by an errant flight kit and guess
what, all hell breaks loose in the DC buses when this
row of breakers is damaged. So to sum it up, if you
interrupt power to an efis it will cease to operate
but it did not fail. It was an electrical failure and
I'll bet a beer a copilot's flight kit caused it.
Cheers, Bob Sultzbach
--- Bruce Gray <Bruce(at)glasair.org> wrote:
> Here's one.
http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/publications/Incidents/DOCS/
ComAndRep/Martin
> Air/martinair-summary.html
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
> --
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:57 am Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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Good Morning Kent,
It is built by a good company and is very low priced. Time will tell us if it is a good buy or not. Reliability and durability are difficult to determine since the product is so new. (I have one on order, so I may be prejudiced!)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 6/12/2006 9:54:48 P.M. Central Standard Time, kcorr(at)charter.net writes:
| Quote: | To take this thread in a little different direction, what is everyone's thoughts on Sporty's electric backup attitude indicator?
Kent
|
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:57 am Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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In a message dated 6/13/2006 4:58:44 A.M. Central Standard Time, khorton01(at)rogers.com writes:
| Quote: | My EFIS is backed up by round-dial ASI, altimeter and VSI, a turn and
bank and a wing leveler.
Kevin Horton
|
Good Morning Kevin,
You have precisely what I would want.
While my Stearman is NOT IFR legal, I have the same installed except that I have two T&Bs, one electric and one venturi driven.
Just in case!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
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endspeed(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:57 am Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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Hi Kevin, I agree. I would go even further to say we
should plan for redundant back up of ANY system that
is vital for flight safety. I.E. electric fuel pump
as a backup to the engine driven. The gist of my
prior post was to point out this was not an EFIS
failure since the incident was being used to vilify
EFIS systems. If you read the incident report, the
efis did not even stop working on the Captain's side.
Safe flying, Bob Sultzbach
P.S. As an aside, I have experienced two pitot static
system failures in my many years of flying so yes,
anything can fail, even steam gauges.
---
__________________________________________________
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:57 am Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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Good Morning Kent,
It is built by a good company and is very low priced. Time will tell us if it is a good buy or not. Reliability and durability are difficult to determine since the product is so new. (I have one on order, so I may be prejudiced!)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 6/12/2006 9:54:48 P.M. Central Standard Time, kcorr(at)charter.net writes:
| Quote: | To take this thread in a little different direction, what is everyone's thoughts on Sporty's electric backup attitude indicator?
Kent
|
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:57 am Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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In a message dated 6/13/2006 4:58:44 A.M. Central Standard Time, khorton01(at)rogers.com writes:
| Quote: | My EFIS is backed up by round-dial ASI, altimeter and VSI, a turn and
bank and a wing leveler.
Kevin Horton
|
Good Morning Kevin,
You have precisely what I would want.
While my Stearman is NOT IFR legal, I have the same installed except that I have two T&Bs, one electric and one venturi driven.
Just in case!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:06 am Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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Good Morning Kent,
It is built by a good company and is very low priced. Time will tell us if it is a good buy or not. Reliability and durability are difficult to determine since the product is so new. (I have one on order, so I may be prejudiced!)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 6/12/2006 9:54:48 P.M. Central Standard Time, kcorr(at)charter.net writes:
| Quote: | To take this thread in a little different direction, what is everyone's thoughts on Sporty's electric backup attitude indicator?
Kent
|
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:06 am Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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In a message dated 6/13/2006 4:58:44 A.M. Central Standard Time, khorton01(at)rogers.com writes:
| Quote: | My EFIS is backed up by round-dial ASI, altimeter and VSI, a turn and
bank and a wing leveler.
Kevin Horton
|
Good Morning Kevin,
You have precisely what I would want.
While my Stearman is NOT IFR legal, I have the same installed except that I have two T&Bs, one electric and one venturi driven.
Just in case!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:46 am Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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Bob:
Does Kevin have precisely what you want? This is the fourth or fifth message from you . . .
TDT
do not archive
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 1:04 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: IFR Requirements
In a message dated 6/13/2006 4:58:44 A.M. Central Standard Time, khorton01(at)rogers.com writes:
| Quote: |
My EFIS is backed up by round-dial ASI, altimeter and VSI, a turn and
bank and a wing leveler.
Kevin Horton |
Good Morning Kevin,
You have precisely what I would want.
While my Stearman is NOT IFR legal, I have the same installed except that I have two T&Bs, one electric and one venturi driven.
Just in case!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Terry Watson
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:32 am Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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Something is re-sending Bob Sigfried’s emails. Bob is one of the true gentlemen on this list and deserves to be treated as such.
Terry
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:43 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: IFR Requirements
Bob:
Does Kevin have precisely what you want? This is the fourth or fifth message from you . . .
TDT
do not archive
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 1:04 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: IFR Requirements
In a message dated 6/13/2006 4:58:44 A.M. Central Standard Time, khorton01(at)rogers.com writes:
| Quote: |
My EFIS is backed up by round-dial ASI, altimeter and VSI, a turn and
bank and a wing leveler.
Kevin Horton |
Good Morning Kevin,
You have precisely what I would want.
While my Stearman is NOT IFR legal, I have the same installed except that I have two T&Bs, one electric and one venturi driven.
Just in case!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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Dan.Beadle(at)hq.inclines
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:48 am Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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After a lot of thought, we seem close to deciding on this system:
Buss A - GNS430 (Approach Certified)
- Transponder
- Autopilot (TruTrak DigiFlight with independent gyros)
- Grand Rapids Engine Monitor with altitude…
- Angle of Attack
Buss B - Grand Rapids EFIS-1 with separate GPS
- Misc. Avionics
The thought is we can survive failure of either buss or any component on it:
Buss B Fails: - Switch to autopilot for wings level, attitude control
- Altimeter from GRT Engine Monitor Option & Garmin
- Course from Garmin
- AOA gives us backup A/S surrogate.
Buss A Fails: - Fly EFIS – have all air and attitude data we need, spare GPS.
- Engine Monitor by ear.
Seems like a reasonable risk level without any steam gages.
Comments?
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 4:28 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: IFR Requirements
In a message dated 6/12/2006 12:57:56 P.M. Central Standard Time, bferrell(at)123mail.net writes:
| Quote: |
Dan -
And to add another datapoint, my FAA (Cincinnati) regional inspector who will do
my op limits stated that he had no concerns with my self-certifying that my dual
BMA EFIS system met these requirements (no vacuum system at all, no round
gauges). Folks need to do what they're comfortable with, and do so from a
position of knowledge, but I agree that it's pretty clearly established what is
"required".
Brett |
Good Evening All,
May I add another small comment?
The FAA has only recently started to interject a need for redundancy in IFR aircraft. Anything approved before the FAA got on this kick is not required to have ANY redundancy.
Personally, I don't think they should be able to make such a requirement.
It is my opinion that it is up to the operator to decide what level he/she is comfortable with.
If you talked to ALPA they would tell you that no airplane should be allowed in the sky unless it had a minimum of two engines and two pilots.
I think one engine, one pilot, one generator, one battery, one radio and one gyro instrument is all the regulations should require. If I want more, I will add it.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:55 am Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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We were thinking of adding a diode-protected feed from a second bus to our GRT EIS, so one would have engine data regardless of a single bus failure . . .
TDT
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Beadle
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 2:44 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: IFR Requirements
After a lot of thought, we seem close to deciding on this system:
Buss A - GNS430 (Approach Certified)
- Transponder
- Autopilot (TruTrak DigiFlight with independent gyros)
- Grand Rapids Engine Monitor with altitude…
- Angle of Attack
Buss B - Grand Rapids EFIS-1 with separate GPS
- Misc. Avionics
The thought is we can survive failure of either buss or any component on it:
Buss B Fails: - Switch to autopilot for wings level, attitude control
- Altimeter from GRT Engine Monitor Option & Garmin
- Course from Garmin
- AOA gives us backup A/S surrogate.
Buss A Fails: - Fly EFIS – have all air and attitude data we need, spare GPS.
- Engine Monitor by ear.
Seems like a reasonable risk level without any steam gages.
Comments?
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 4:28 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: IFR Requirements
In a message dated 6/12/2006 12:57:56 P.M. Central Standard Time, bferrell(at)123mail.net writes:
| Quote: |
Dan -
And to add another datapoint, my FAA (Cincinnati) regional inspector who will do
my op limits stated that he had no concerns with my self-certifying that my dual
BMA EFIS system met these requirements (no vacuum system at all, no round
gauges). Folks need to do what they're comfortable with, and do so from a
position of knowledge, but I agree that it's pretty clearly established what is
"required".
Brett |
Good Evening All,
May I add another small comment?
The FAA has only recently started to interject a need for redundancy in IFR aircraft. Anything approved before the FAA got on this kick is not required to have ANY redundancy.
Personally, I don't think they should be able to make such a requirement.
It is my opinion that it is up to the operator to decide what level he/she is comfortable with.
If you talked to ALPA they would tell you that no airplane should be allowed in the sky unless it had a minimum of two engines and two pilots.
I think one engine, one pilot, one generator, one battery, one radio and one gyro instrument is all the regulations should require. If I want more, I will add it.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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6/13/2006
Responding to a previous posting (partially copied below) by John Erickson
on this subject.
Hello John, Thank you for the labor that you invested to create your posting
for the benefit of other pilots and builders.
I'd like to note that this information is also available in a condensed
tabular form from me upon direct e mail request.
Also see pages 49 and 50 of the June 2006 issue of Kitplanes magazine for a
published version of this table and the introduction.
OC
<<Time: 09:21:53 AM PST US
From: "John Erickson" <john.erickson(at)cox.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: IFR Requirements
Dan, A lot of people will respond with what they think or what they heard.
Here's what I have in writing. Note that while most Experimental Operations
Limits are fairly standardized, they may differ, so check the Ops Limits
issued
for the aircraft you're putting the EFIS in for specifics.
Here's what my Ops Limits say under the Phase II section.
"4. After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately
equipeed for night and/or instrument flist as listed in FAR 91.205 (b
through e), this aircraft is to be operated under day only VFR."
OK, pretty straightforward. On to what FAR 91.205 b through e
says......skip...>>
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flyboy494
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:41 pm Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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Hi Bob,
This is something I am considering down the road for my airplane. Please keep us posted how things work out for you.
best regards,
Kent Orr
do not archive
---- BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: |
Good Morning Kent,
It is built by a good company and is very low priced. Time will tell us if
it is a good buy or not. Reliability and durability are difficult to determine
since the product is so new. (I have one on order, so I may be prejudiced!)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 6/12/2006 9:54:48 P.M. Central Standard Time,
kcorr(at)charter.net writes:
To take this thread in a little different direction, what is everyone's
thoughts on Sporty's electric backup attitude indicator?
Kent
|
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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In a message dated 6/13/2006 7:36:09 P.M. Central Standard Time, kcorr(at)charter.net writes:
| Quote: | Hi Bob,
This is something I am considering down the road for my airplane. Please keep us posted how things work out for you.
best regards,
Kent Orr
do not archive |
Good Evening Kent,
I will certainly do so!
Sorry for the multiple posts earlier today. Things seem to have settled down for the evening. (At least, I hope so!)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
Do Not Archive
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aadamson(at)highrf.com
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:05 am Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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Not to pick any fights, but I just have to set back sometimes and say "HUH?"...
Don't get me wrong, I fly a glass panel airplane today (2004 182 with G1000) and I'm building another other (Lancair Legacy with Chelton). What strikes me as odd is the way people approach an IFR panel. It seems to be an extension of a VFR one, instead of one dedicated for IFR use. The problem is that IMC is either black for white, there is no gray area (clouds not included  ). You either are VMC and on IFR, or you are IMC and on IFR. BTW, I don't buy this "Light IFR" concept either. It's pretty simple, were you visually limited in IMC or NOT?
So my suggestion is to stop and think about, you are going to build a panel that gives you the opportunity to use your airplane it in IMC. Will you? What do you expect for failsafe if you do and something happens? How will you survive?
Those questions have to be answered and seriously. Going NORDO is one thing, but loosing all orientation when in the clag.... well, you know the outcome of that.... (ever tried unusual attitude recovery with partial panel? Did ya survive before the instructor had to bail you out?).
With Glass you also *have* to approach things differently. I'm not going to tell you how or which equipment to buy (altho as you can tell, I like the stuff that is a kissing cousin to certified), and you certainly *don't* need any vacuum instruments if you so desire, but please plan in some failsafes.
Examples.
- Dual busses
- Dual EFIS that can act independently
- Alt, AS, AI (electric via Sporty's for cheap)
- an autopilot with its own built in compass and wing leveler
- a backup GPS preferably with 6 pack instrumentation
NOW FOR THE MOST IMPORTANT PART..... LEARN!!!! to use what you install. I get so sick of reading about accidents where the outcome could have been different if someone would have just "RTFM".
Just think about it, Crosswell, most likely would have been saved if he'd just had "real-time" weather onboard. Glass is awesome, wonderful, and I'll never fly without it, but you *do* need some kind of failsafe, and you do need education.
Ok, I'll get off my soapbox. I don't agree with Bruce's assessment of Glass in a GA cockpit, but I do have a strong feeling that if you do it, you don't do it half way, and you do include failsafes.
The problem with the above is that cheap and redundant failsafes don't always go together....
My panel has dual Cheltons, 3 - 3 1/8" backup instruments (AS, AI, ALT), TruTrak AP with separate built in heading and wing leveler, and a Garmin portable mounted in the panel that if everything goes dark, can run on batteries and in 6 pack mode to be a last resort. Probably overkill, but who cares, it's my butt in the seat.
Alan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Beadle
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 4:06 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: IFR Requirements
John,
Thank you for the thoughtful reply.
I had read the regs several times and had visited the EAA site. I just didn’t quite put it together as you have. I am comfortable with dual, independent systems on separate battery busses. In the unlikely event of a lightning strike, I might lose both, but I can live with that.
I probably will go with the dual battery, dual EFIS, dual AHRS system and no gyros. I may have to educate the DAR for sign-off, but it should be doable.
Thanks.
Dan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Erickson
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 9:19 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: IFR Requirements
Dan,
A lot of people will respond with what they think or what they heard. Here's what I have in writing. Note that while most Experimental Operations Limits are fairly standardized, they may differ, so check the Ops Limits issued for the aircraft you're putting the EFIS in for specifics.
Here's what my Ops Limits say under the Phase II section.
"4. After completion of phase I flight testing, [b]unless appropriately equipeed for night and/or instrument flist as listed in FAR 91.205 (b through e[/b]), this aircraft is to be operated under day only VFR."
OK, pretty straightforward. On to what FAR 91.205 b through e says...
FAR 91.205
(b) Visual-flight rules (day). For VFR flight during the day, the following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Airspeed indicator.
(2) Altimeter.
(3) Magnetic direction indicator.
(4) Tachometer for each engine.
(5) Oil pressure gauge for each engine using pressure system.
(6) Temperature gauge for each liquid-cooled engine.
(7) Oil temperature gauge for each air-cooled engine.
( Manifold pressure gauge for each altitude engine.
(9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.
(10) Landing gear position indicator, if the aircraft has a retractable landing gear.
(11) For small civil airplanes certificated after March 11, 1996, in accordance with part 23 of this chapter, an approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operation of the aircraft may continue to a location where repairs or replacement can be made.
(12) If the aircraft is operated for hire over water and beyond power-off gliding distance from shore, approved flotation gear readily available to each occupant and, unless the aircraft is operating under part 121 of this subchapter, at least one pyrotechnic signaling device. As used in this section, “shore” means that area of the land adjacent to the water which is above the high water mark and excludes land areas which are intermittently under water.
(13) An approved safety belt with an approved metal-to-metal latching device for each occupant 2 years of age or older.
(14) For small civil airplanes manufactured after July 18, 1978, an approved shoulder harness for each front seat. The shoulder harness must be designed to protect the occupant from serious head injury when the occupant experiences the ultimate inertia forces specified in §23.561(b)(2) of this chapter. Each shoulder harness installed at a flight crewmember station must permit the crewmember, when seated and with the safety belt and shoulder harness fastened, to perform all functions necessary for flight operations. For purposes of this paragraph—
(i) The date of manufacture of an airplane is the date the inspection acceptance records reflect that the airplane is complete and meets the FAA-approved type design data; and
(ii) A front seat is a seat located at a flight crewmember station or any seat located alongside such a seat.
(15) An emergency locator transmitter, if required by §91.207.
(16) For normal, utility, and acrobatic category airplanes with a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of 9 or less, manufactured after December 12, 1986, a shoulder harness for—
(i) Each front seat that meets the requirements of §23.785 (g) and (h) of this chapter in effect on December 12, 1985;
(ii) Each additional seat that meets the requirements of §23.785(g) of this chapter in effect on December 12, 1985.
(17) For rotorcraft manufactured after September 16, 1992, a shoulder harness for each seat that meets the requirements of §27.2 or §29.2 of this chapter in effect on September 16, 1991.
(c) Visual flight rules (night). For VFR flight at night, the following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section.
(2) Approved position lights.
(3) An approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system on all U.S.-registered civil aircraft. Anticollision light systems initially installed after August 11, 1971, on aircraft for which a type certificate was issued or applied for before August 11, 1971, must at least meet the anticollision light standards of part 23, 25, 27, or 29 of this chapter, as applicable, that were in effect on August 10, 1971, except that the color may be either aviation red or aviation white. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operations with the aircraft may be continued to a stop where repairs or replacement can be made.
(4) If the aircraft is operated for hire, one electric landing light.
(5) An adequate source of electrical energy for all installed electrical and radio equipment.
(6) One spare set of fuses, or three spare fuses of each kind required, that are accessible to the pilot in flight.
(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.
(2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used.
(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following aircraft:
(i) Airplanes with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 360 degrees of pitch and roll and installed in accordance with the instrument requirements prescribed in §121.305(j) of this chapter; and
(ii) Rotorcraft with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of ±80 degrees of pitch and ±120 degrees of roll and installed in accordance with §29.1303(g) of this chapter.
(4) Slip-skid indicator.
(5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.
(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.
(7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.
( Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).
(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).
(e) Flight at and above 24,000 ft. MSL (FL 240). If VOR navigational equipment is required under paragraph (d)(2) of this section, no person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft within the 50 states and the District of Columbia at or above FL 240 unless that aircraft is equipped with approved distance measuring equipment (DME). When DME required by this paragraph fails at and above FL 240, the pilot in command of the aircraft shall notify ATC immediately, and then may continue operations at and above FL 240 to the next airport of intended landing at which repairs or replacement of the equipment can be made.
Reading this again makes things pretty clear. Basic Day/VFR equipment is listed first. Night VFR requires all the Day VFR equipment with some additions. IFR requires Night/VFR with some more equipment. Here's where another question typically arises when discussing EFIS use in IFR flight. FAR 91.205 (d) specifies Gyroscopic rate of turn, pitch and bank, and direction indicator. What is gyroscopic (especially since most (if not all) AHRS's do not have any moving parts at all. Here's what I copied off EAA's Homebuilt page (link is http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/faq/1Equipping%20a%20Homebuilt%20for%20IFR%20operations.html and does require membership)
"What is a gyro?
The often-asked question is, what constitutes a “gyroscopic” instrument. Is an instrument containing an actual rotating mass gyro required, or are alternatives such as ring laser gyros or accelerometer-based instruments acceptable? Unfortunately, there is no specific definition of a gyroscopic instrument to be found in any FAA regulation or guidance document.
In order to try to answer this question, the EAA contacted the FAA Small Airplane Directorate in Kansas City, MO. The Small Airplane Directorate confirmed that there is no published guidance on this subject, but indicated that the function of the instrument is the main consideration. Any instrument that performs the function of the required gyroscopic instrument and presents info to the pilot in the same manner as the gyroscopic instrument will meet the requirement of 91.205, regardless of what mechanical or electronic means are used to generate the information and display."
Bottomline, it seems pretty obvious from all this that all of the popular EFIS systems out there meet the definition of gyroscopic instruments given above, satisfy the equipment required by the FAR's, and the requirements for instrument flight specified in the Ops Limits. Note that nowhere in any of this is there any requirement for any backup of any sort (other than the requirement in the Night/VFR section for spare fuses). I like your statement of "If not illegal, at least this is not safe enough for me." Remember the regs are a minimum. Lots of stuff to consider including electrical system design, quality of EFIS hardware AND software, installation, etc. However, once the regs are met, everything else is really personal preference. What one person feels is perfectly safe may seem to someone else incredibly unsafe. To each his own. I'm going to have backups in my RV-10.
John Erickson
RV-10 #40208 Wings
(I think this is my longest post ever... )
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Beadle
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 7:47 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: IFR Requirements
There has been a lot on TSO129. I get that.
What are the requirements for IFR flight in the EFIS age? We are planning a Grand Rapids EFIS with an engine monitor. So far, all eggs in one basket. If not illegal, at least this is not safe enough for me.
Certificated A/C use an AI, Altimeter, Tach, MP steam gage for redundancy.
Would it be legal to put in a second EFIS with an independent AHRS on a separate essential buss and delete the steam gages?
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LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:25 am Post subject: IFR Requirements |
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To a pilot that is dependant on the instrument, does it matter why, or
more importantly just that it does not work when I need it. The whole
purpose of this thread was to state the value of backup instruments, and
while the EFIS itself did not fail, the end result is that it was not
available, which means that you needed a backup. The easy solution for
this is to have an EFIS with an internal battery, IE Dynon? I will be
using a Chelton, but it is still dependant on electrons flowing to it,
as it does not have an internal battery option, but I will be backing it
up with both a Portable GPS and a Dynon with internal battery.
Dan
RV10 (40269)
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