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Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:57 am Post subject: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

On Sep 13, 2013, at 1:09 AM, Kelvin Weston wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I ordered enough foam for two seats to allow a bit of experimenting and this only cost 20 uk pounds.  Well worth the expense and time getting it right if I'm going to spend several hundreds on the final upholstered article. 	




Kelvin...I would urge that you consider using the very special (and quite spendy) temperfoam for the seat bottoms rather than upholstery foam...your tush will be very appreciative. My seat bottoms are 1" of the green "crash foam" (very dense), 1" of blue (less dense), plus triangular wedges of upholstery foam...it could save you some trauma from a hard landing...sorry but I cannot source this material for you.

Good luck,

Fred



 [quote][b]

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:22 am Post subject: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

Fred Klein is right. Soft foam and a hard landing (not damaging the airplane)

will probably cause serious back injury. Think about it, the foam will still be compressing 

and you are still going down ,when the airplane has started its bounce so you hit the seat base twice as hard. 

Best seat cushion is a styoroam bean bag in this  situation.

Graham

        From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Saturday, 14 September 2013, 14:56

 Subject: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

  

 



On Sep 13, 2013, at 1:09 AM, Kelvin Weston wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I ordered enough foam for two seats to allow a bit of experimenting and this only cost 20 uk pounds.  Well worth the expense and time getting it right if I'm going to spend several hundreds on the final upholstered article. 	




Kelvin...I would urge that you consider using the very special (and quite spendy) temperfoam for the seat bottoms rather than upholstery foam...your tush will be very appreciative. My seat bottoms are 1" of the green "crash foam" (very dense), 1" of blue (less dense), plus triangular wedges of upholstery foam...it could save you some trauma from a hard  landing...sorry but I cannot source this material for you.

Good luck,

Fred



 [quote]http://www.matronics.com/Naviet="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics-> [b]

rob(at)hyperion-ef.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:37 am Post subject: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

Here's some more info on Tempur-Pedic foam.



 



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempur-Pedic

jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:00 am Post subject: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

Aircraft Spruce has pieces on page 29 of the catalogue as follows:

     1” x 16” x 18” .........................P/N 01-09310     ........................ $23.50 ea.

     2” x 16” x 18” .........................P/N 01-09320     ........................ $45.75 ea.

     3” x 16” x 18” .........................P/N 01-09300     ........................ $74.75 ea.

     

     On 9/14/2013 8:36 PM, Rob Housman       wrote:

     

     [quote]                       <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->                

Here’s             some more info on Tempur-Pedic foam.         

          

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempur-Pedic         

.         

          

Best             regards,         

          

Rob             Housman         

Europa             XS A070         

Rotax             914         

Airframe             complete         

Avionics             a work in progress         

          

          

                                  

From:                 owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                 [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On                   Behalf Of Fred Klein

                 Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 6:57 AM

                 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

                 Subject: europa-List: Re: Factory                 upholstery kit           

         

         

          

                                  

On Sep 13, 2013, at 1:09 AM, Kelvin               Weston wrote:           

           



             

                        

I                 ordered enough foam for two seats to allow a bit of                 experimenting and this only cost 20 uk pounds.  Well                 worth the expense and time getting it right if I'm going                 to spend several hundreds on the final upholstered                 article.           

          

                    

Kelvin...I would urge that you consider             using the very special (and quite spendy) temperfoam for the             seat bottoms rather than upholstery foam...your tush will be             very appreciative. My seat bottoms are 1" of the green             "crash foam" (very dense), 1" of blue (less dense), plus             triangular wedges of upholstery foam...it could save you             some trauma from a hard landing...sorry but I cannot source             this material for you.         

                    

          

                    

Good luck,         

                    

          

                    

Fred         

         

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rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 792

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:37 am Post subject: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

Hi Group 

 	I don't have personal experience flying in colder weather with temperfoam, but Richard who flies a Europa upstate NY got rid of his because it got too hard for his likes in the cold. 

 	Ron Parigoris    [quote][b]

riddon(at)sent.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:27 am Post subject: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

I had a similar experience. Couldn't sit on it for more than an hour without my nether regions going numb.



Richard Iddon 



G-RIXS

On 14 Sep 2013, at 20:36, rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Group

 

 I don't have personal experience flying in colder weather with temperfoam, but Richard who flies a Europa upstate NY got rid of his because it got too hard for his likes in the cold.

 

 Ron Parigoris

 

 

 

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 

 http://forums.matronics.com

 

 http://www.matronics.com/contribution

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:19 am Post subject: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

that's the advantage of a bean bag, just shuffle a bit and the shape adjusts

to the new profile of your backside. In a bump the beans crush and absorb energy.

That came from Farnborough via the BGA donkeys years ago.

Graham

        From: Richard Iddon <riddon(at)sent.com>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Sunday, 15 September 2013, 9:27

 Subject: Re: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Iddon <riddon(at)sent.com (riddon(at)sent.com)>



I had a similar experience. Couldn't sit on it for more than an hour without my nether regions going numb.



Richard Iddon 



G-RIXS

On 14 Sep 2013, at 20:36, rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us (rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us) wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Group

 

 I don't have personal experience flying in colder weather with temperfoam, but Richard who flies a Europa upstate NY got rid of his because it got too hard for his likes in the cold.

 

 Ron Parigoris

 

 

 

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 

 http://forums.matronics.com

 

 http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigatorsp;              - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

=   -->

riddon(at)sent.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:14 am Post subject: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

Do you have a source for a small bean bag Graham or is it a case of DIY?  I just googled it and could only find giant things.

Richard 

On 15 Sep 2013, at 10:18, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   that's the advantage of a bean bag, just shuffle a bit and the shape adjusts

 to the new profile of your backside. In a bump the beans crush and absorb energy.

 That came from Farnborough via the BGA donkeys years ago.

 Graham

 From: Richard Iddon <riddon(at)sent.com>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Sunday, 15 September 2013, 9:27

 Subject: Re: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

 I had a similar experience. Couldn't sit on it for more than an hour without my nether regions going numb.

 Richard Iddon 

 G-RIXS

 On 14 Sep 2013, at 20:36, rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:

 > Hi Group

 > 

 > I don't have personal experience flying in colder weather with temperfoam, but Richard who flies a Europa upstate NY got rid of his because it got too hard for his likes in the cold.

 > 

 > Ron Parigoris

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 > 

 > http://forums.matronics.com

 > 

 > http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 > 

 > http://www.matronics.com/Navigatorsp;             - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

AirEupora

Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 186
Location: Dixon, CA

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:20 am Post subject: Re: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

I bought the foam for my seats at the following URL:



 	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.seatfoam.com/aviation.htm 	




They have three different firmness and they are heat activated.  Just like ski boots.  It a little on the pricey side, but they work.  



I need to put a lumbar support on my airplane and one more layer of the dense foam as I'll hit bottom after an hour of flight time.  There are three colors .  Pink real soft, green middle and then the hard Blue.  I'm 250 lbs and I fly in a warm climate.  



Rick Stockton

N120EJ

Dave Disney

Joined: 16 Aug 2010
Posts: 54
Location: Weston-Super-Mare

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:56 am Post subject: Re: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

I need an additional cushion to raise my height in the aircraft so I have been following this thread with interest.



There is a company in the UK that appears to supply just the sort of cushions that I am looking for. 



http://www.qbitus.co.uk/



If you click on the green tab on the right hand side for the 'Dynamic Range', there is an interesting write up that includes reference to the thermo-reactive problems of some foam products.



I haven't contacted the company yet to discuss my needs, but there may be some interesting information on their site for others with regards to different types of foam products and their attributes.



Dave

G-RJWX

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:13 am Post subject: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

Dave

a deep soft cushion WILL cause injury in a moderately heavy landing.

Graham

        From: Dave Disney <davedisney(at)yahoo.co.uk>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

  Sent: Monday, 16 September 2013, 9:56

 Subject: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Disney" <davedisney(at)yahoo.co.uk (davedisney(at)yahoo.co.uk)>

I need an additional cushion to raise my height in the aircraft so I have been following this thread with interest.

There is a company in the UK that appears to supply just the sort of cushions that I am looking for. 

http://www.qbitus.co.uk/

If you click on the green tab on the right hand side for the 'Dynamic Range', there is an interesting write up that includes reference to the thermo-reactive problems of some foam products.

I haven't contacted the  company yet to discuss my needs, but there may be some interesting information on their site for others with regards to different types of foam products and their attributes.

Dave

G-RJWX

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/view//www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" ="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics                    &nbsptronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri================

 [quote][b]

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:02 am Post subject: Re: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

We chose Oregon Aero for our seat cushions.  They have years of experience engineering seats that are comfortable and provide safety in the event of hard landing / crash.  They now have a pattern for the Europa XS, with cut outs for the spar pins.  They sent us the cushions to try before upholstering.  They can do upholstery or you can have a local person do it.  They also sold us lightweight, aircraft quality (fire resistant) carpet which we cut & finished for our interior. 



We actually had 3 sets made - one for each seat plus a "booster" that can be used in pilot or co-pilot side (since Heather couldn't reach pedals / see out to land with normal seats).  It works well for taking Young Eagles also.



Seats are very comfortable.  When it is cold out, they initially feel hard, but within minutes you don't even notice the seat.  Most of our flights are 2-3 hours, and it can be very cold in Michigan & at altitude.  We've flown from Michigan to Colorado and Arizona (6-7 hours in a day).  Absolutely no back pain or discomfort in flight and after arriving.  



People complain that they are expensive, but between comfort & knowing that they will protect in the event of hard landing, we think they are the best way to go for seats.



Jim & Heather Butcher

N241BW

485 hrs

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:34 am Post subject: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

An excellent description and documentation of a Europa seat upholstery method can be found at:



	http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/justin(at)systemwise.co.uk.05.07.2007/

N6ZY

Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 31

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:41 pm Post subject: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

Let me emphasize the importance of using a Temperfoam or Comforfoam seat bottom cushion.  Two years ago I flew my Lancair 360 when the engine quit after only 8 hours from new, because the fuel transfer system failed.  I had to deadstick into a small field.  A Lancair glides like a brick so I had a long flare at the bottom.  According to the FAA, I clipped a tall tree, which caused me to land in a horizontal attitude, but with a very high descent rate, and little forward speed.  From my experience with ejection seats, I estimate that I pulled between 25 and 30 Gs.  It was enough to snap the main spar, break the crankshaft and break off the rear fuselage.  I survived with relatively minor injuries, broken ribs, two broken teeth and a very badly sprained neck.  I believe that this was due to two things.  I had used Temperfoam with all 3 grades of hardness for the seat cushions, and I had repositioned the upper seatbelt attachment points to the upper fuselage just behind the canopy.  The original seatbelt point is below the pilot's shoulder level and well back, so that there is always some slack left, and it will increase the likelihood of spinal injury.



If I had used ordinary upholstery foam, I think that I would have broken my spine. Ordinary foam would have rebounded and increased the stress on my back.   As it was, I lost one full inch in height as the discs all compressed.  The original seat belt location would also have increased the spinal loading.  As it was the belt held rock solid, and I just had bad bruising.  Now that I am building a Europa, I see the same issues, especially the upper seat belt mounting position.  As you can guess, I am using Temperfoam and have repositioned the upper belt mountings in a similar way to that done by Frans Veldmann.  I don't care if the seat feels hard (it didn't), I want the protection.

As a slightly amusing side effect, I used to have a bad back, and occasionally a slipped disc.  Since the crash, my bad back is almost cured, with no slipped discs; but I don't recommend it as a treatment!

Jerry Fisher



On Sep 14, 2013, at 2:21 PM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:

Fred Klein is right. Soft foam and a hard landing (not damaging the airplane)

will probably cause serious back injury. Think about it, the foam will still be compressing 

and you are still going down ,when the airplane has started its bounce so you hit the seat base twice as hard. 

Best seat cushion is a styoroam bean bag in this  situation.

Graham

        From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Sent: Saturday, 14 September 2013, 14:56

 Subject: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

  

 



On Sep 13, 2013, at 1:09 AM, Kelvin Weston wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I ordered enough foam for two seats to allow a bit of experimenting and this only cost 20 uk pounds.  Well worth the expense and time getting it right if I'm going to spend several hundreds on the final upholstered article. 	




Kelvin...I would urge that you consider using the very special (and quite spendy) temperfoam for the seat bottoms rather than upholstery foam...your tush will be very appreciative. My seat bottoms are 1" of the green "crash foam" (very dense), 1" of blue (less dense), plus triangular wedges of upholstery foam...it could save you some trauma from a hard  landing...sorry but I cannot source this material for you.

Good luck,

Fred



 [quote]http://www.matronics.com/Naviet="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics-> 



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:14 pm Post subject: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

On Sep 16, 2013, at 7:41 PM, Jeremy Fisher wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I had used Temperfoam with all 3 grades of hardness for the seat cushions, and I had repositioned the upper seatbelt attachment points to the upper fuselage just behind the canopy.  The original seatbelt point is below the pilot's shoulder level and well back, so that there is always some slack left, and it will increase the likelihood of spinal injury. 	




Jeremy...as you're no doubt aware, the standard shoulder belt on the Europa is at or below shoulder height and is apt to contribute to spinal compression in a hard landing. I've raised mine w/ a hinged riser as shown in the attached photos...I've stress-tested them to 15 Gs w/ no collapse or deformation...the hinge allows for the normal "sitting on the raised seat back" method for entering and exiting a XS mono...no change in shoulder belt attach point.

The last photo shows my layers of blue and green Temperfoam, augmented w/ regular upholstery foam wedges...note the ends of the lumbar support visable at the seat back...backs are propped in place w/ blocks of pink styrofoam.

Fred

[img]cid:B10C052A-4D88-410F-9BA4-3A4BA98A5EA4[/img]

[img]cid:5AAA7444-E91D-4F91-96EB-DA803A1756AE[/img]

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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:06 am Post subject: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

Fred

looking brilliant! Make sure you don't make my mistake and finish it when you're 

too old (and unrich) to fly it!

Graham





        From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Tuesday, 17 September 2013, 5:13

 Subject: Re: europa-List: Re: Factory upholstery kit

  

 



On Sep 16, 2013, at 7:41 PM, Jeremy Fisher wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I had used Temperfoam with all 3 grades of hardness for the seat cushions, and I had repositioned the upper seatbelt attachment points to the upper fuselage just behind the canopy.  The original seatbelt point is below the pilot's shoulder level and well back, so that there is always some slack left, and it will increase the likelihood of spinal injury. 	




Jeremy...as you're no doubt aware, the standard shoulder belt on the Europa is at or below shoulder  height and is apt to contribute to spinal compression in a hard landing. I've raised mine w/ a hinged riser as shown in the attached photos...I've stress-tested them to 15 Gs w/ no collapse or deformation...the hinge allows for the normal "sitting on the raised seat back" method for entering and exiting a XS mono...no change in shoulder belt attach point.

The last photo shows my layers of blue and green Temperfoam, augmented w/ regular upholstery foam wedges...note the ends of the lumbar support visable at the seat back...backs are propped in place w/ blocks of pink styrofoam.

Fred

[img]cid:1.471120421(at)web87704.mail.ir2.yahoo.com[/img]

[img]cid:2.471120421(at)web87704.mail.ir2.yahoo.com[/img]

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