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Fuel Injected - or Not
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flyby41(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:38 am Post subject: Fuel Injected - or Not

   I am no expert at anything but here goes.....

  Flow matching to the cylinders is done on a bench with each individual cylinder before assembly. "Flows" are compared and matched so that all are  the same or as near the same as possible. Every cylinder port being somewhat different typically. In automotive racing the ports are ground (with a die grinder) and in some cases even welded to achieve better flow, comparing the CFM (cubic feet per minute) "flow" by sucking air through the intake ports and or blasting air out the exhaust ports. 

     Now is that what your friends at AFP did for $300.00? I don't think so.

 

  

 [quote] ---

chaztuna(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: Fuel Injected - or Not

Ron,

  I suspect that the "flow matching" that Vern referred to was a "port and polish" job on the intake and exhaust ports of all 4 of his cylinder heads. They probably also "CCed" the combustion chambers. What that means, is that the modified the combustion chambers to all have the same volume. This is typically measured using a chemist's burette [marked in cubic centimeters (cc) ].  Considering that Lycoming cylinder heads are screwed onto the cylinders (as opposed to cylinders bolted to heads with a gasket in between on most engines), this would be more work than doing it on most engines. This "CCing" insures that the compression ratio is exactly equal between all cylinders.

  This sort of extra work is done on all "serious" automotive engines. The Reno racers also resort to this stuff to extract every last bit of power from their engines. This sort of work also improves idle smoothness.

  Part of the reason you needed to have your fuel injectors flow balanced was to compensate for production variations in the items mentioned above. Other variations are casting flaws in the sump, differing intake tube lengths and bends. The intake system on parallel valve Lycomings looks like something built by a plumber.  Continental systems are even worse.

 Charlie Kuss



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  Flow matching for $1000!  Wow, what do they do for that kind of money.  I have AFP fuel injection on my IO360 and paid a visit to AFP at KSPA.  If you live anywhere near SC the trip is well worth the  $300 I paid to Don for an afternoon of flight testing, nozzle balancing and FI education by his small but very professional staff.  Four of them spent the better part of an afternoon precisely balancing my system.  It took four test hops and they even provided the data recorder in the back seat!  I don't know how you could do the job on a test stand and I don't know why it should cost $1000.

  

 Ron Schreck

 RV-8 "Miss Izzy"

 Gold Hill Airpark, NC

  

  

 From: "Vern W." <highflight1(at)gmail.com (highflight1(at)gmail.com) >

 Subject: Re: Fuel Injected - or Not

       

       The original poster is deciding on whether to order his new engine with or

       without FI, not convert an existing engine.

       I don't know about Aerosport, but I bought a brand new TMX-IO360 w/Airflow

       Performance FI from Mattituck (it arrived just last week) and the differenc

       e

       in price BETWEEN the standard carb engine and going to the AFP FI was only

       $700.

       

       For me, that was a no brainer going with the FI at that price difference

       because of the already mentioned advantages. In fact, I went one step

       further and paid the additional $1000 for the "Flow Matching" option that

       gives you the ability to lean very exactingly by the engines ability to kee

       p

       all four cylinders running at the same fuel flow.

       

       So even at the additional $1700 for the way I went, it was still a no

       brainer.

       

       I admit that if were actually flying with a carbed engine, I would probably

       seriously wonder if I wanted to spend more than $3000 to change it over, bu

       t

       that's not an issue with a brand new engine order.

       

       Vern

       RV7-A

       Houston, TX

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:12 am Post subject: Fuel Injected - or Not

Ed Holyoke wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		                                        <![endif]-->     Clean   DocumentEmail      MicrosoftInternetExplorer4   <![endif]-->            /* Style Definitions */   table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin:0in; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:10.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman";}  <![endif]-->            

If you’re serious about having fuel injection for inverted flight, don’t forget the flop tube and inverted oil setup. The latter will cost you some pounds and dollars and space on the firewall.      

       

Pax,      

       

Ed Holyoke   

 	
 Yeah, but if you're serious about really wild unusual attitudes, it's well worth it!!!  It would be a shame to find out you really like getting 'out of shape' only to find that your mount keeps cutting your fun short!

 Linn

 do not archive

mstewart(at)iss.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:24 am Post subject: Fuel Injected - or Not

Except that he specifically mentioned “ability to lean very exactingly by the engines ability to keep all four cylinders running at the same fuel flow.”  

Perhaps he got both, air flow port and polish & fuel flow nozzle matching.. But I doubt it.   

Not even sure how it could be done with out bench running, and even then Im not sure how effective that would be as installations differ so drastically.  

Mike  

Do not archive  

   

         

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kuss

 Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 9:43 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Fuel Injected - or Not  

  

   

Ron,

  I suspect that the "flow matching" that Vern referred to was a "port and polish" job on the intake and exhaust ports of all 4 of his cylinder heads. They probably also "CCed" the combustion chambers. What that means, is that the modified the combustion chambers to all have the same volume. This is typically measured using a chemist's burette [marked in cubic centimeters (cc) ].  Considering that Lycoming cylinder heads are screwed onto the cylinders (as opposed to cylinders bolted to heads with a gasket in between on most engines), this would be more work than doing it on most engines. This "CCing" insures that the compression ratio is exactly equal between all cylinders.

  This sort of extra work is done on all "serious" automotive engines. The Reno racers also resort to this stuff to extract every last bit of power from their engines. This sort of work also improves idle smoothness.

  Part of the reason you needed to have your fuel injectors flow balanced was to compensate for production variations in the items mentioned above. Other variations are casting flaws in the sump, differing intake tube lengths and bends. The intake system on parallel valve Lycomings looks like something built by a plumber.  Continental systems are even worse.

 Charlie Kuss

 

 

 

   

Flow matching for $1000!  Wow, what do they do for that kind of money.  I have AFP fuel injection on my IO360 and paid a visit to AFP at KSPA.  If you live anywhere near SC the trip is well worth the  $300 I paid to Don for an afternoon of flight testing, nozzle balancing and FI education by his small but very professional staff.  Four of them spent the better part of an afternoon precisely balancing my system.  It took four test hops and they even provided the data recorder in the back seat!  I don't know how you could do the job on a test stand and I don't know why it should cost $1000.

  

 Ron Schreck

 RV-8 "Miss Izzy"

 Gold Hill Airpark, NC

  

  

 From: "Vern W." <highflight1(at)gmail.com (highflight1(at)gmail.com) >

 Subject: Re: Fuel Injected - or Not

       

       The original poster is deciding on whether to order his new engine with or

       without FI, not convert an existing engine.

       I don't know about Aerosport, but I bought a brand new TMX-IO360 w/Airflow

       Performance FI from Mattituck (it arrived just last week) and the differenc

       e

       in price BETWEEN the standard carb engine and going to the AFP FI was only

       $700.

       

       For me, that was a no brainer going with the FI at that price difference

       because of the already mentioned advantages. In fact, I went one step

       further and paid the additional $1000 for the "Flow Matching" option that

       gives you the ability to lean very exactingly by the engines ability to kee

       p

       all four cylinders running at the same fuel flow.

       

       So even at the additional $1700 for the way I went, it was still a no

       brainer.

       

       I admit that if were actually flying with a carbed engine, I would probably

       seriously wonder if I wanted to spend more than $3000 to change it over, bu

       t

       that's not an issue with a brand new engine order.

       

       Vern

       RV7-A

       Houston,  TX

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:33 am Post subject: Fuel Injected - or Not

Vern W. wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		     The $1000 option charge is for "Port, Flow Match, Combustion Equalization"

     For me, I wanted a turn-key engine that was literally ready to fly (Mattituck even installed the two P-mags I sent them and did the factory run-in with them adjusted and installed).

      

     So, first, I didn't want to take delivery on my new engine and have to keep working on it, and second, it may be possible that the $1000 pays for more than just installing matched injectors.

 	
 I think you're right.  Along with the matched injectors, (from your description above) they also ported and polished the cylinders and sized the inside of the head where the Pistons are.  Flow matching the injectors evens out the fuel load per cylinder .... all the grinding and other stuff is for equalizing the incoming air and matching the combustion volume.  I'd say the the   one grand was well spent if you're in a hurry.

  	  Quote: 	
		       Either way, I'm happy.

 	
 And that's as it should be.  I understand that the new ECI cylinders are pretty close to being flow matched naturally due to their casting process.     	  Quote: 	
		      Mahlon from Mattituck sometimes frequents this forum so perhaps he could jump in and describe exactly what's done for the $1000 "Flow Matching" option that might be different than just changing out an injector or two.

 	
 Great idea.  I'm looking to be educated too!

 Linn

 do not archive

  	  Quote: 	
		      

      

     Vern

     RV7-A

     Houston, TX  

   

  

     On 6/14/06, Ron Schreck <ronschreck(at)alltel.net (ronschreck(at)alltel.net)> wrote:     	  Quote: 	
		                    Flow matching for $1000!  Wow, what do they do for that kind of money.  I have AFP fuel injection on my IO360 and paid a visit to AFP at KSPA.  If you live anywhere near SC the trip is well worth the  $300 I paid to Don for an afternoon of flight testing, nozzle balancing and FI education by his small but very professional staff.  Four of them spent the better part of an afternoon precisely balancing my system.  It took four test hops and they even provided the data recorder in the back seat!  I don't know how you could do the job on a test stand and I don't know why it should cost $1000. 

        

       Ron Schreck

       RV-8 "Miss Izzy"

       Gold Hill Airpark, NC

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:37 am Post subject: Fuel Injected - or Not

Vincent Osburn wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Message                  I am no expert at anything but here goes.....

      Flow matching to the cylinders is done on a bench with each individual cylinder before assembly. "Flows" are compared and matched so that all are  the same or as near the same as possible. Every cylinder port being somewhat different typically. In automotive racing the ports are ground (with a die grinder) and in some cases even welded to achieve better flow, comparing the CFM (cubic feet per minute) "flow" by sucking air through the intake ports and or blasting air out the exhaust ports. 

         Now is that what your friends at AFP did for $300.00? I don't think so.

 	
 I think you hit the nail square!  This is an apples/oranges discussion.  Vince is on the right track.  See my other post.  I do believe the AFP route is the way to go Vs. GAMI based on other threads I've read.

 Linn

 do not archive

  	  Quote: 	
		        

      	  Quote: 	
		        ----- Original Message ----- 

       From:     Ron Schreck (ronschreck(at)alltel.net) 

       To:     RV List (rv-list(at)matronics.com)

       Sent: 6/14/2006 5:06:10 AM 

       Subject: Re: Fuel Injected - or Not

       

     

           Flow matching for $1000!  Wow, what do they do for that kind of money.  I have AFP fuel injection on my IO360 and paid a visit to AFP at KSPA.  If you live anywhere near SC the trip is well worth the  $300 I paid to Don for an afternoon of flight testing, nozzle balancing and FI education by his small but very professional staff.  Four of them spent the better part of an afternoon precisely balancing my system.  It took four test hops and they even provided the data recorder in the back seat!  I don't know how you could do the job on a test stand and I don't know why it should cost $1000.

        

       Ron Schreck

       RV-8 "Miss Izzy"

       Gold Hill Airpark, NC

chaztuna(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:37 am Post subject: Fuel Injected - or Not

Jim

  I found an article from Light Plane Maintenance on EAA's site 

regarding auto fuel STCs. They mention that Av gas Reid pressure is 

6.5 psi (lower is better) Auto fuel can vary from 15 psi to 7 psi, so 

there is a variation. The article also mentions that Kalifornia 

requires a 7 psi maximum Reid pressure for their auto fuel. I guess 

you guys luck out. Evidently leading the nation towards a "greener" 

tomorrow has some advantages. The article also mentions that Peterson 

Aviation sells a Reid Vapor Pressure Tester. Sounds like a handy tool 

to have, especially if you want to use auto fuel in a 8.5 to 1 CR or 

fuel injected engine.

  I'm going to call Peterson Aviation on Monday, when Todd gets back in town.



Charlie Kuss

low pass

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Houston

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Injected - or Not

Speaking of fuel injection, what's the latest on the Ellison throttle body system?  Back when I got my engine, there were mixed results on the product.  What about recent actual experiences.  I'm running a 160-hp, O-320.



Thanks

rv8ch

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: Fuel Injected - or Not

 	  Quote: 	
		    I found an article from Light Plane Maintenance on EAA's site regarding 

 auto fuel STCs. They mention that Av gas Reid pressure is 6.5 psi (lower 

 is better) Auto fuel can vary from 15 psi to 7 psi, so there is a 

 variation. The article also mentions that Kalifornia requires a 7 psi 

 maximum Reid pressure for their auto fuel. I guess you guys luck out. 

 Evidently leading the nation towards a "greener" tomorrow has some 

 advantages. The article also mentions that Peterson Aviation sells a 

 Reid Vapor Pressure Tester. Sounds like a handy tool to have, especially 

 if you want to use auto fuel in a 8.5 to 1 CR or fuel injected engine.


	




You can also get the tester from http://www.decalinchemicals.com/

as well.  Chris also has formulated and sells a safer TCP for

experimental aircraft, and is a good guy - he drives a

Subaru powered Glastar.



-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing

_________________
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/

Glenn Wilkinson

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 5

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Injected - or Not

Hey Paul,

Regarding your FI question, there is another possibility not mentioned. I have an RV-4 w/ O-320-D1A 160 HP and am using an Ellison TBI. It is smaller, lighter and more simple than a carb.,it is also much more efficient allowing agressive leaning. It is also far less expensive than standard FI. By the way, CAFE has done testing in a/c with an Ellison TBI and had some very good things to say about it.



Hope this helps,

CAVU

Glenn Wilkinson

N654RV (at) OKZ

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