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rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
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 Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:04 am Post subject: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] |
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On 14 Oct 2013, at 11:07, Alan Burrill wrote:
| Quote: | I suggest people read AIC W 001/2011 and specifically para 4.4.2 which related to the subject under discussion.
Cannot post an extract on my phone.
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You can see all the AICs at:
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=159&Itemid=56.html
and can choose W 001/2011 from the 2011 section.
Here's the bit that Alan refers to pasted in:
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
4.4 Operating under a Permit to Fly
4.4.1 A General Exemption (ORS4 No. 802) and a Permission (ORS4 No. 803) have been issued to allow owners of a jointly-owned private aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly to pay for instruction in their aircraft with the following conditions and limitations:
a. The exemption does not apply to gyroplanes or ex-military aircraft.
b. The person undergoing the training must hold a licence that entitles them to act as pilot in command of the aircraft or would entitle them except that they need to fly with an instructor to obtain a Certificate of Test, Experience or Revalidation and the purpose of the flight is to gain such a certificate.
c. The aircraft must be owned or operated by or under arrangements entered into with a flying club, of which the person giving the instruction and the person receiving the instruction are both members.
4.4.2 Therefore, owners of jointly owned non-EASA aircraft operating under a Permit to Fly can pay for training in their aircraft provided that the conditions in paragraph 4.4.1 have been met.
Note: Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as short field landings) or become familiar with a new type etc.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
So, yes, in the UK you can have and pay for instruction in your group-owned Europa, but NOT for a new licence or rating. Thus IF it was a jointly-owned machine, the advice to another poster not to tell the CAA that he trained for his IMC in a Europa would appear to be wise, if he doesn't want the book thrown at him and probably lose his rating.
However, section 4.4 applies only to jointly-owned permit types. The section for sole ownership is slightly different and does not exclude training for initial issue of a licence or rating.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
3 Solely-owned non-EASA Aircraft
3.1 Article 259(2) of the Air Navigation Order (ANO) 2009 states that 'If the only such valuable consideration consists of remuneration for the services of the pilot, the flight is deemed to be a private flight for the purposes of Part 3 and Part 4'.
3.2 The result of this is that a person who owns an aircraft outright and does not have to pay for anything else in relation to the flight is permitted to pay an instructor for training in their private aircraft. Likewise, a person who has free use of an aircraft is also permitted to pay an instructor for training in the aircraft, although this situation usually only arises when a close friend or member of the owner's family wishes to use the aircraft.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
The difference in the rules between joint and sole ownership is also made clear in the flowchart at Appendix A of the document, where no conditions are applied to training in sole-owned permit machines.
I can see that there is some opportunity for confusion, but it appears that everyone who expressed an opinion on this topic was correct to some degree!
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
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brian.davies(at)clara.co.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:47 am Post subject: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] |
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LAA Technical Leaflet 2.09 says
Initial Licence or Rating
2. An owner may receive remunerated (or un-remunerated) flight training
towards an initial
licence or rating in his own LAA aircraft provided he is a 'sole' owner and
not part of a group
ownership. (Direct family members of the owner's immediate family are also
acceptable).
3. The solo part of the PPL syllabus can be carried out in a single seat LAA
aircraft as long as
the aircraft is similar to that being used for dual instruction, is suitably
equipped, and the
instructor is satisfied that it is compatible with accepted flight training
practices.
4. 'Simulated' instrument training as required by the PPL syllabus, and
training towards the IMC
or IR(R) rating is acceptable in a LAA aircraft provided it is suitably
equipped.
5. Examination, as required by the PPL syllabus, may be carried out in a LAA
aircraft, but only
if un-remunerated. The aircraft must also be suitably equipped.
In order to get a further interpretation of this situation I have asked Jon
Cooke the Chairman of the LAA Pilot Coaching scheme to comment further. I
will post his reply as soon as it arrives.
Brian Davies
LAA board member
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Brian Davies
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: uk
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:55 am Post subject: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] |
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rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:22 am Post subject: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] |
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On 14 Oct 2013, at 17:35, Alan Carter wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi, Found it.
1.1 It is often thought that flying training is not permitted in private aircraft, or at least that only a limited amount of training is allowed. In
fact, there is no restriction on training in private aircraft, but as with any activity in an aircraft that is normally only used for private recreational
purposes there are restrictions on what can be paid1 for in relation to the flight.
1.2 The basic position is that if someone pays for something in relation to a flight, the flight is no longer private, but either aerial work,
public transport or commercial air transport. Aircraft that operate under a Certificate of Airworthiness (CofA) and are only maintained to a
standard appropriate for private use or aircraft that operate under a Permit to Fly (hereafter jointly referred to as 'private aircraft') can only
be used for private flights.
Then it goes on further down to this.
Note: Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The
intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as
short field landings) or become familiar with a new type etc.
I never understand the wording of these things, But to me it looks like you can't,, I think I will go along with that, unless someone tells me different..
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Alan - the note "further down" refers only to the joint ownership paragraphs (the same note appears twice, first in section 4.3 and then in section 4.4); there is no such note in Section 3. I agree that it's easy to get confused, but careful reading is rewarded by a measure of understanding.
Have another look at Annex A (the flowchart). If you are a sole owner you finish up in the central box where NO conditions are stipulated. If the aircraft is in joint ownership you finish up in one of the other boxes which includes Condition A - "Training must not be towards the grant of a licence or a rating in a licence".
I'm not sure why this difference is made - perhaps it's to prevent a group-ownership scheme setting up as an unregulated flying school.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
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alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:44 am Post subject: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Re: Sub Panels....thanks] |
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Thanks Rowland.
I was a bit constrained on an iPhone but looking on a bigger machine I obviously missed the flow diagram and previous section 3 on sole owners.
Seems to have cleared up the matter though.
Alan
On 14 Oct 2013, at 18:21, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On 14 Oct 2013, at 17:35, Alan Carter wrote:
>
>
> Hi, Found it.
> 1.1 It is often thought that flying training is not permitted in private aircraft, or at least that only a limited amount of training is allowed. In
> fact, there is no restriction on training in private aircraft, but as with any activity in an aircraft that is normally only used for private recreational
> purposes there are restrictions on what can be paid1 for in relation to the flight.
> 1.2 The basic position is that if someone pays for something in relation to a flight, the flight is no longer private, but either aerial work,
> public transport or commercial air transport. Aircraft that operate under a Certificate of Airworthiness (CofA) and are only maintained to a
> standard appropriate for private use or aircraft that operate under a Permit to Fly (hereafter jointly referred to as 'private aircraft') can only
> be used for private flights.
>
> Then it goes on further down to this.
>
> Note: Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The
> intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as
> short field landings) or become familiar with a new type etc.
>
> I never understand the wording of these things, But to me it looks like you can't,, I think I will go along with that, unless someone tells me different..
Alan - the note "further down" refers only to the joint ownership paragraphs (the same note appears twice, first in section 4.3 and then in section 4.4); there is no such note in Section 3. I agree that it's easy to get confused, but careful reading is rewarded by a measure of understanding.
Have another look at Annex A (the flowchart). If you are a sole owner you finish up in the central box where NO conditions are stipulated. If the aircraft is in joint ownership you finish up in one of the other boxes which includes Condition A - "Training must not be towards the grant of a licence or a rating in a licence".
I'm not sure why this difference is made - perhaps it's to prevent a group-ownership scheme setting up as an unregulated flying school.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson
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Alan Carter
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:06 am Post subject: Re: IMC training in Europa [was: Re: Re: Sub Panels....thank |
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Hi Roland ,Brian and al.
Well I think I've got it.
All a bit crazy, but as I understand it you can do an IMC rating on a Europa a Permit Aircraft, Provided you are the solo owner.
And ????? it has all the appropriate radio gear, not a GPS-vor ete,.
But if Me and my Mate own the plane we can-not do the IMC rating on our permit Europa.
Is that Right,
Im going to have fun with my examiner,
Regards.
Alan
PS, I am solo owner, with an Nppl, ,I assume that I can not do an IMC rating, or maybe I can but can not use it, with my present licence,??
Forget, that, I do not have the gear, I only have a VOR ,ADF in my ipad.
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