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Dennis Johnson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 89
Location: N. Calif.
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 Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:22 am Post subject: Any French Electricians? |
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Greetings,
This is not an aviation question, so feel free to delete now.
I have a table saw in my workshop with a 3 HP, 240 volt, 60 Hz motor. It was made in France for the US market. After 25 years of faithful service, the motor won't start. It hummed and the saw blade moved slightly, but that was all. The motor has two capacitors. The markings on one of them were readable and I installed a replacement. The other capacitor was mounted on the outside case of the motor and the markings were painted over when the motor was painted at the factory.
The motor's data plate indicates two capacitors: one at 500 microfarads and the other at 30 microfarads at 400 volts AC. I replaced the 500 microfarad capacitor because it had leaked some oil and, since I could read the markings on the case, it was easy to get a replacement. The saw now starts, but just barely; much slower than it used to. I suspect the other capacitor may also need to be replaced. However, I do not know if it is a momentary (start) capacitor or a continuous run capacitor since there are no markings on the case. The case is about the side of two "D" cell flashlight batteries stacked end to end..
I might take this to an electric motor repair shop and let them figure it out, but I'm curious if anyone can translate the attached schematic, which was folded up inside the motor's electrical wiring box. I can figure out the names for the colors of the wires, but not much else. I'm interested in not only what the words translate into English, but what the symbols mean. I'm using this as an opportunity to learn something about larger AC electric motors.
I have a Fluke 87 meter with a capacitor measurement function, but it only works on polarized capacitors. Mine are not polarized, since they are for AC current.
Best,
Dennis
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pmather
Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:53 am Post subject: Any French Electricians? |
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The capacitor connected to the violet wires is the start capacitor, the one to the black wires is the run capacitor. The motor is dual voltage (as per the data plate). The diagram shows high voltage operation. To use it in low voltage mode connect the white, orage and red wires to post W2. You can reverse rotation by swapping the black and red wires.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Johnson
Sent: 24 October 2013 17:22
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Any French Electricians?
Greetings,
This is not an aviation question, so feel free to delete now.
I have a table saw in my workshop with a 3 HP, 240 volt, 60 Hz motor. It was made in France for the US market. After 25 years of faithful service, the motor won't start. It hummed and the saw blade moved slightly, but that was all. The motor has two capacitors. The markings on one of them were readable and I installed a replacement. The other capacitor was mounted on the outside case of the motor and the markings were painted over when the motor was painted at the factory.
The motor's data plate indicates two capacitors: one at 500 microfarads and the other at 30 microfarads at 400 volts AC. I replaced the 500 microfarad capacitor because it had leaked some oil and, since I could read the markings on the case, it was easy to get a replacement. The saw now starts, but just barely; much slower than it used to. I suspect the other capacitor may also need to be replaced. However, I do not know if it is a momentary (start) capacitor or a continuous run capacitor since there are no markings on the case. The case is about the side of two "D" cell flashlight batteries stacked end to end..
I might take this to an electric motor repair shop and let them figure it out, but I'm curious if anyone can translate the attached schematic, which was folded up inside the motor's electrical wiring box. I can figure out the names for the colors of the wires, but not much else. I'm interested in not only what the words translate into English, but what the symbols mean. I'm using this as an opportunity to learn something about larger AC electric motors.
I have a Fluke 87 meter with a capacitor measurement function, but it only works on polarized capacitors. Mine are not polarized, since they are for AC current.
Best,
Dennis
[quote][b]
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uuccio(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:58 am Post subject: Any French Electricians? |
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Hi Dennis,
Here you go… hope it’s helpful.
Sacha
Motor with starter and permanent condensers (capacitors) without thermal protection. Double voltage.
Next to the condensers on the schematic:
C.D= Condensateur de Demarrage = starter condenser
C.P. = Condensateur Permanent = permanent condenser
The schematic is drawn for LOW voltage. For HIGH voltage, connect the white and orange wires to W2.
Direction of Rotation: Anti-clockwise as seen from the connection (connector?)
To reverse the sense of rotation invert the black and red wires.
Not sure what PP and PA mean both preceeded by 1/2. Next to the rotating disc, it says something which I interpret as: “the PA half which is less resistant” on top of the disc and “the PA half which is more resistant” on the bottom of the disc.
I’m not sure what the symbol on the Purple (VIOLET) wire is next to the capacitor.
[quote][b]
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uuccio(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:04 am Post subject: Any French Electricians? |
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<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>The capacitor connected to the violet wires is the start capacitor, the one to the black wires is the run capacitor.
Yes
The motor is dual voltage (as per the data plate). The diagram shows high voltage operation. To use it in low voltage mode connect the white, orage and red wires to post W2.
I believe it’s the opposite way round - it shows low voltage operation and you need to connect the orange and white to W2 for high volt op.
[quote][b]
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pmather
Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:21 am Post subject: Any French Electricians? |
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Sacha is correct - finger trouble on my part
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: 24 October 2013 18:04
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Any French Electricians?
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>The capacitor connected to the violet wires is the start capacitor, the one to the black wires is the run capacitor.
Yes
The motor is dual voltage (as per the data plate). The diagram shows high voltage operation. To use it in low voltage mode connect the white, orage and red wires to post W2.
I believe it’s the opposite way round - it shows low voltage operation and you need to connect the orange and white to W2 for high volt op. | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
01234567890
[quote][b]
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kesleyelectric(at)iowatel
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:31 am Post subject: Any French Electricians? |
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The symbol connected to the violet wires to the right of the capacitor is the rotating governor/stationary switch, which disconnects the start capacitor when the motor reaches approx. 80-90% rated speed. The connection as shown is for low voltage.
Tom Barter
Kesley Electric, Inc.
Phone (319)-347-2462
Fax (319)-347-6607
kesleyelectric(at)iowatelecom.net (kesleyelectric(at)iowatelecom.net)
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:04 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Any French Electricians?
<![if !supportLists]>Ø <![endif]>The capacitor connected to the violet wires is the start capacitor, the one to the black wires is the run capacitor.
Yes
The motor is dual voltage (as per the data plate). The diagram shows high voltage operation. To use it in low voltage mode connect the white, orage and red wires to post W2.
I believe it’s the opposite way round - it shows low voltage operation and you need to connect the orange and white to W2 for high volt op. [quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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Bob McC
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:35 am Post subject: Any French Electricians? |
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Motor with capacitors for start and run not thermally protected dual voltage
bleu = blue
blanc = white
orange = orange
jaune = yellow
rouge = red
violet = violet
noir = black
cd = start capacitor
cp = run capacitor
LOW voltage shown, for high voltage connect white, orange and red wires to terminal W2
rotation anti-clockwise viewed from connection end
to change rotation interchange red and black wires.
The round symbol in the violet lead is the centrifugal switch to switch in and out the start winding.
Bob McC
From: uuccio(at)gmail.com
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Any French Electricians?
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 18:03:47 +0100
Ø The capacitor connected to the violet wires is the start capacitor, the one to the black wires is the run capacitor.
Yes
The motor is dual voltage (as per the data plate). The diagram shows high voltage operation. To use it in low voltage mode connect the white, orage and red wires to post W2.
I believe it’s the opposite way round - it shows low voltage operation and you need to connect the orange and white to W2 for high volt op.[quote]
===========
-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
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http://forums.matronics.com
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[b]
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Bob McC
Falco #908
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edpav8r(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:40 am Post subject: Any French Electricians? |
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Dennis,
My French is pretty rusty, but I came up with this:
The title reads, roughly: "MOTOR STARTUP CAPACITORS AND PERMANENT (word missing?) WITHOUT THERMAL PROTECTION. DUAL VOLTAGE."
Colors:
Bleu = Blue
Blanc = White
Jaune = Yellow
Rouge = Red
Noir = Black
Bottom notes:
"LOW VOLTAGE DRAWING: For high voltage connect the white, orange and red wires to terminal number W2." — I think that means the drawing shows low voltage connection and the note explains high voltage connection.
"ROTATION: Counter-clockwise as seen from connection." — I suspect "connection" is used in the mechanical sense, meaning the output shaft.
"To change the direction of rotation, reverse black and red."
Good luck!
Eric
On Oct 24, 2013, at 9:21 AM, "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd(at)volcano.net (pinetownd(at)volcano.net)> wrote:
[quote] Greetings,
This is not an aviation question, so feel free to delete now.
I have a table saw in my workshop with a 3 HP, 240 volt, 60 Hz motor. It was made in France for the US market. After 25 years of faithful service, the motor won't start. It hummed and the saw blade moved slightly, but that was all. The motor has two capacitors. The markings on one of them were readable and I installed a replacement. The other capacitor was mounted on the outside case of the motor and the markings were painted over when the motor was painted at the factory.
The motor's data plate indicates two capacitors: one at 500 microfarads and the other at 30 microfarads at 400 volts AC. I replaced the 500 microfarad capacitor because it had leaked some oil and, since I could read the markings on the case, it was easy to get a replacement. The saw now starts, but just barely; much slower than it used to. I suspect the other capacitor may also need to be replaced. However, I do not know if it is a momentary (start) capacitor or a continuous run capacitor since there are no markings on the case. The case is about the side of two "D" cell flashlight batteries stacked end to end..
I might take this to an electric motor repair shop and let them figure it out, but I'm curious if anyone can translate the attached schematic, which was folded up inside the motor's electrical wiring box. I can figure out the names for the colors of the wires, but not much else. I'm interested in not only what the words translate into English, but what the symbols mean. I'm using this as an opportunity to learn something about larger AC electric motors.
I have a Fluke 87 meter with a capacitor measurement function, but it only works on polarized capacitors. Mine are not polarized, since they are for AC current.
Best,
Dennis
<French motor006.pdf>
[b]
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Dennis Johnson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 89
Location: N. Calif.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Any French Electricians? |
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Thanks so much for everyone who took the time to respond to my request for a translation and explanation of my French-made table saw motor schematic! I always feel good when I learn something new and I feel even better that so many people helped me. Thanks!
Dennis
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