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markandrhonda(at)harveyfa
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 Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:22 pm Post subject: Seatbelt mount |
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Hi,
At the beginning of the year I purchased a Europa XS Tri Gear about 60% completed project. I’ve been reading your postings which have been helping me with my project. I’ve been reading somewhere about the rear mounting point for the seatbelt is not in the best position and I was wondering what the thoughts were on relocating the rear mount point to the roof of the cockpit.
Has anyone done this before? I was wondering what your thoughts were, weather it would be worth the extra work or would it just be a waste of time?
Mark
Kit 451 (Australia)
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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| Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:33 pm Post subject: Seatbelt mount |
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Mark, I am 6ft 2" and in 12 yrs flying have found no
problem at all with the harnesses, nor yet have any of my
various size passengers. I would certainly leave them well
alone. The design is a good one and I would steer clear of
modifications other than possibly the sort where you are
adding something extra like an autopilot.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 07:21:54 +1000
<markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi,
At the beginning of the year I purchased a Europa XS Tri
Gear about 60% completed project. I’ve been reading your
postings which have been helping me with my project.
I’ve been reading somewhere about the rear mounting
point for the seatbelt is not in the best position and I
was wondering what the thoughts were on relocating the
rear mount point to the roof of the cockpit.
Has anyone done this before? I was wondering what your
thoughts were, weather it would be worth the extra work
or would it just be a waste of time?
Mark
Kit 451 (Australia)
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:19 pm Post subject: Seatbelt mount |
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Hi! Mark,
I have for some time been aware of this issue and possible compression of the spine from the harness location of the Europa .
I have over 1000 hours with the harness all as standard . Perhaps such a drastic incident would be likely unsurvivable anyway.
However I have at some time seen an arrangement with a hinged block on top of the existing seat back which ensures that the potential for any spine compressive forces  is removed.  However It would need extensive load testing and need to be very resilient so I’ve never done anything further. It would also need the length of the shoulder straps to be much longer .
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au
Sent: 26 October 2013 22:22
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Seatbelt mount
Hi,
At the beginning of the year I purchased a Europa XS Tri Gear about 60% completed project. I’ve been reading your postings which have been helping me with my project. I’ve been reading somewhere about the rear mounting point for the seatbelt is not in the best position and I was wondering what the thoughts were on relocating the rear mount point to the roof of the cockpit.
Has anyone done this before? I was wondering what your thoughts were, weather it would be worth the extra work or would it just be a waste of time?
Mark
Kit 451 (Australia)
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
01234567
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Fred Klein
Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:56 pm Post subject: Seatbelt mount |
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On Oct 26, 2013, at 4:18 PM, Bob Harrison wrote:
| Quote: | | I have at some time seen an arrangement with a hinged block on top of the existing seat back which ensures that the potential for any spine compressive forces is removed. However It would need extensive load testing and need to be very resilient so I’ve never done anything further. It would also need the length of the shoulder straps to be much longer . |
Mark...as Bob mentions the standard build allows for spinal compression in the event of a hard landing (or worse). I made some hinged block risers as Bob describes; the hinge serves to allow the top of the seat back to be used as a transition seat when entering or exiting the aircraft. By no means did I conduct an "extensive load testing" program; I did however, simulate a 15G load on the shoulder straps in the appropriate direction. I claim 15G on the basis of an assumption of 100 # upper body weight which could be imposed on the shoulder straps in the event that the body were restrained from moving forward. The shoulder strap mounting point did not change, so whatever stresses such an event would cause will be handled by the airframe as designed. Suprisingly, the stock shoulder strap length still serves.
...no guarantees...
Fred
[img]cid:58BBC68E-1124-4CDB-B4A3-19DFA8DDE33F[/img]
[img]cid:FFE1EECA-9051-4AC3-9874-C54406957508[/img]
[img]cid:52CF077F-D2C3-4075-A6EA-B16074FAC38B[/img]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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markandrhonda(at)harveyfa
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| Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:56 pm Post subject: Seatbelt mount |
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I wasn’t real keen on altering the mounting point if there was an alternative and it looks like Fred’s put a lot of thought into his alternative. This seem to achieve the same result without changing the mounting point. What material have you used to build the extension blocks and how much higher than the head rest are they?
Mark
From: Fred Klein (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2013 9:55 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Seatbelt mount
On Oct 26, 2013, at 4:18 PM, Bob Harrison wrote:
| Quote: | | I have at some time seen an arrangement with a hinged block on top of the existing seat back which ensures that the potential for any spine compressive forces is removed. However It would need extensive load testing and need to be very resilient so I’ve never done anything further. It would also need the length of the shoulder straps to be much longer . |
Mark...as Bob mentions the standard build allows for spinal compression in the event of a hard landing (or worse). I made some hinged block risers as Bob describes; the hinge serves to allow the top of the seat back to be used as a transition seat when entering or exiting the aircraft. By no means did I conduct an "extensive load testing" program; I did however, simulate a 15G load on the shoulder straps in the appropriate direction. I claim 15G on the basis of an assumption of 100 # upper body weight which could be imposed on the shoulder straps in the event that the body were restrained from moving forward. The shoulder strap mounting point did not change, so whatever stresses such an event would cause will be handled by the airframe as designed. Suprisingly, the stock shoulder strap length still serves.
...no guarantees...
Fred
[img]cid:BCB3ECE2D0804FB7AA94744914E6CC82(at)MARKSPC[/img]
[img]cid:493550AADB22435EBE8EA87E44947301(at)MARKSPC[/img]
[img]cid:7A0D345C481846F5877520971890D520(at)MARKSPC[/img]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:50 am Post subject: Seatbelt mount |
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Bob
I can verify that occasionally such drastic incidents are surviveable. I can also confirm that compression fractures of the spine do result, so I am very impressed with Fred Klein's solution.
My own conclusion is that unless one's training is so good that one can guarantee not having an accidental spin, (which I can not!) for me a Long EZ would be a more forgiving airplane. I flew several EZs for 15 years, when I started flying Europa's I soon realised that EZs may well make one overconfident. I have spun many airplanes and gliders, as "good practice/training?" trouble with spin recovery is you end up going straight down at high speed halfway through the recovery.
Even so, all airplanes bite if not respected at all times. IOW don't push your airplane out of it's comfort zone!
Bottom line is most of us don't fly enough to be always ahead of the airplane.
Graham
From: Bob Harrison <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, 27 October 2013, 0:18
Subject: RE: Seatbelt mount
Hi! Mark,
I have for some time been aware of this issue and possible compression of the spine from the harness location of the Europa .
I have over 1000 hours with the harness all as standard . Perhaps such a drastic incident would be likely unsurvivable anyway.
However I have at some time seen an arrangement with a hinged block on top of the existing seat back which ensures that the potential for any spine compressive forces is removed. However It would need extensive load testing and need to be very resilient so I’ve never done anything further. It would also need the length of the shoulder straps to be much longer .
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au
Sent: 26 October 2013 22:22
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Seatbelt mount
Hi,
At the beginning of the year I purchased a Europa XS Tri Gear about 60% completed project. I’ve been reading your postings which have been helping me with my project. I’ve been reading somewhere about the rear mounting point for the seatbelt is not in the best position and I was wondering what the thoughts were on relocating the rear mount point to the roof of the cockpit.
Has anyone done this before? I was wondering what your thoughts were, weather it would be worth the extra work or would it just be a waste of time?
Mark
Kit 451 (Australia)
| Quote: |
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
|
01234567
8
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:12 am Post subject: Seatbelt mount |
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Hi! Graham,
Thanks for your very valued  input from your awful experience. I also am very impressed with the concept that Fred has submitted. It is just a pity that someone has to go through the expense of engineering PROOF LOADING and design procedure and finish up with needing to pay for a damn mod. to put it into practice. I would think that it could well be applied to many types of aircraft. Unfortunately such costs are way ahead of a damn pensioner !
Regards
Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON
Sent: 27 October 2013 09:50
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Seatbelt mount
Bob
I can verify that occasionally such drastic incidents are surviveable. I can also confirm that compression fractures of the spine do result, so I am very impressed with Fred Klein's solution.
My own conclusion is that unless one's training is so good that one can guarantee not having an accidental spin, (which I can not!) for me a Long EZ would be a more forgiving airplane. I flew several EZs for 15 years, when I started flying Europa's I soon realised that EZs may well make one overconfident. I have spun many airplanes and gliders, as "good practice/training?" trouble with spin recovery is you end up going straight down at high speed halfway through the recovery.
Even so, all airplanes bite if not respected at all times. IOW don't push your airplane out of it's comfort zone!
Bottom line is most of us don't fly enough to be always ahead of the airplane.
Graham
From: Bob Harrison <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk (ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, 27 October 2013, 0:18
Subject: RE: Seatbelt mount
Hi! Mark,
I have for some time been aware of this issue and possible compression of the spine from the harness location of the Europa .
I have over 1000 hours with the harness all as standard . Perhaps such a drastic incident would be likely unsurvivable anyway.
However I have at some time seen an arrangement with a hinged block on top of the existing seat back which ensures that the potential for any spine compressive forces is removed. However It would need extensive load testing and need to be very resilient so I’ve never done anything further. It would also need the length of the shoulder straps to be much longer .
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au (markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au)
Sent: 26 October 2013 22:22
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Seatbelt mount
Hi,
At the beginning of the year I purchased a Europa XS Tri Gear about 60% completed project. I’ve been reading your postings which have been helping me with my project. I’ve been reading somewhere about the rear mounting point for the seatbelt is not in the best position and I was wondering what the thoughts were on relocating the rear mount point to the roof of the cockpit.
Has anyone done this before? I was wondering what your thoughts were, weather it would be worth the extra work or would it just be a waste of time?
Mark
Kit 451 (Australia)
01234567890123456
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:13 am Post subject: Seatbelt mount |
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 10/26/2013 11:21 PM, markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au wrote:
| Quote: | I’ve been reading somewhere about the rear mounting point for the
seatbelt is not in the best position and I was wondering what the
thoughts were on relocating the rear mount point to the roof of the
cockpit.
Has anyone done this before?
|
Yep. I have done this, and I'm very happy with this roof mounted
seatbelt arrangement.
Of course I have not been able to test what happens in an accident,
but at least it is unlikely that I will get my spine compressed due to
the seatbelt.
Frans
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| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:54 am Post subject: Seatbelt mount |
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Hi! All,
The message just posted by Frans has reminded me of the huge number of relevant photos of all topics on the Matronics photo pages Might be helpful to lots of you here recently to have a "wander" through the photos . :- --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Regards
Bob Harrison.G-PTAG
--
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Fred Klein
Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:40 am Post subject: Seatbelt mount |
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On Oct 27, 2013, at 3:11 AM, Bob Harrison wrote:
| Quote: | | It is just a pity that someone has to go through the expense of engineering PROOF LOADING and design procedure and finish up with needing to pay for a damn mod. to put it into practice. |
Bob...I couldn't agree w/ you more...and...there are both positives and negatives to the regs and different approaches used by the people-who-are-paid-to-worry in the UK and the US.
In my circumstances, I was the only person I had to satisfy...and I was able to do so by imposing a 1500# compression load on my little riser using a hydraulic press and very heavy duty cargo strap...but the net effect was but a conscientious effort to ensure that the orientation of the imposed loads was accurate and the load path into the airframe did not change...nonetheless, a far cry from engineering proof loading.
Fred
[img]cid:2B8B7DBC-9433-4D9C-986A-7985BB9AD352[/img]
[img]cid:836683CC-485B-4F25-AFFE-EEB6B6DE7DC1[/img]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Fred Klein
Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:04 am Post subject: Seatbelt mount |
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On Oct 27, 2013, at 12:56 AM, <markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au (markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au)> <markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au (markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au)> wrote:
| Quote: | What material have you used to build the extension blocks and how much higher than the head rest are they?
|
Mark...foam was hot-wired...pixs below are self explanatory...bottom was contoured to mate w/ the top of the CM w/ a bed of resin/flox...I'll see if I can digitize a drawing...F.
[img]cid:90C52754-9A7B-4306-94EB-163EC06E0CEB[/img]b
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[img]cid:AEFF19C2-EE8A-43C1-98C6-ABE1ACB18F88[/img]
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:25 am Post subject: Seatbelt mount |
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You have a four seater Europa? Cool! 
Nice job Fred, Better the seat back and mod get crushed than ones spine!
Cheers,
Pete
On Oct 27, 2013, at 12:03 PM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Oct 27, 2013, at 12:56 AM, <markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au (markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au)> <markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au (markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au)> wrote:
| Quote: | What material have you used to build the extension blocks and how much higher than the head rest are they?
|
Mark...foam was hot-wired...pixs below are self explanatory...bottom was contoured to mate w/ the top of the CM w/ a bed of resin/flox...I'll see if I can digitize a drawing...F.
<DSCN2133.jpg>b
<DSCN2135.jpg>
<DSCN2136.jpg>
<DSCN2205.jpg>
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[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Fred Klein
Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:56 am Post subject: Seatbelt mount |
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On Oct 27, 2013, at 9:24 AM, Pete wrote:
| Quote: | Nice job Fred, Better the seat back and mod get crushed than ones spine!
|
Thanks Pete...I'm repeatedly surprised by the strength of foam & glass composites...F.
[quote][b]
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markandrhonda(at)harveyfa
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:55 pm Post subject: Seatbelt mount |
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Nice neat job and they look very strong Fred
From: Fred Klein (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:03 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Seatbelt mount
On Oct 27, 2013, at 12:56 AM, <markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au (markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au)> <markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au (markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au)> wrote:
| Quote: | What material have you used to build the extension blocks and how much higher than the head rest are they?
|
Mark...foam was hot-wired...pixs below are self explanatory...bottom was contoured to mate w/ the top of the CM w/ a bed of resin/flox...I'll see if I can digitize a drawing...F.
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markandrhonda(at)harveyfa
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:56 pm Post subject: Seatbelt mount |
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Hi Frans
Have you got any photos or a description how you built and installed them
Mark
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Fred Klein
Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:20 pm Post subject: Seatbelt mount |
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Mark...I wrapped 3 layers of BID around the ends up to the 1/8" plywood stiffener...then wrapped another 3 layers over the entire front and back faces and thru the ears including the hinge plates....Fred
On Oct 27, 2013, at 1:55 PM, <markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au (markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au)> <markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au (markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au)> wrote:
[quote] Nice neat job and they look very strong Fred
From: Fred Klein (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:03 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Seatbelt mount
On Oct 27, 2013, at 12:56 AM, <markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au (markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au)> <markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au (markandrhonda(at)harveyfarm.net.au)> wrote:
| Quote: | What material have you used to build the extension blocks and how much higher than the head rest are they?
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Mark...foam was hot-wired...pixs below are self explanatory...bottom was contoured to mate w/ the top of the CM w/ a bed of resin/flox...I'll see if I can digitize a drawing...F.
<DSCN2133.jpg>b
<DSCN2135.jpg>
<DSCN2136.jpg>
<DSCN2205.jpg>
[b]
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