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Intercom Do you need one

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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:31 am Post subject: Intercom Do you need one

I would be grateful for some expert thoughts on the need 

for an intercom with a modern radio. I started off 13 yrs 

ago with an Icom radio and was persuaded that it was worth 

having an additional Flightcom intercom. I subsequently 

upgraded to a Garmin SL30 ( which has been fantastic) but 

kept the intercom. Now of course we need to be 8.33KHz 

compliant so I am planning on getting the Garmin 

equivalent of the SL30 which infuriatingly they have made 

about a 1/4" fatter vertically. This means I am going to 

have to totally redesign that side of my panel, and it 

occurs to me that something costing as much as the Garmin 

GNC255 should be able to give good quality intercom 

without the help of Flightcom and I could ditch the 

latter. Any advice gratefully received.

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:19 am Post subject: Intercom Do you need one

Hello David,



I have used the internal intercom on the SL30 for several years and it works quite nicely.

Is there any reason why you would not use the internal intercom in the Garmin GNC255 ?

 



Paul





  [quote][b]

graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Intercom Do you need one

I use the atr833 and it has full intercom features selectable with a switch, set the volumes and mic levels etc and feed in external audio, can't see why you would need another box.

_________________
Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
Kit 1 G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS 912S, Woodcomp G(@)gdbmk.co.uk

pjeffers(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:36 am Post subject: Intercom Do you need one

One big advantage of using a separate intercom was the VOX arrangement which gives absolute silence in your ears except when transmitting or receiving.  Only in my experience have I noted that built in intercoms tend to give a background hiss all the time which I find annoying.

   Who knows? the new radios may be better but I would need to be convinced before throwing my old Sigtronics away.

   Pete

 

 

   --

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:21 am Post subject: Intercom Do you need one

My thanks to Paul, Graeme & Pete. You seem to have 

answered my concerns (echoed by Pete) related to a 

suspicion that built into the radio intercoms give poor 

results. I will go for the GNC 250 and bin my separate 

intercom.

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 12:19:12 -0500

  Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hello David,

 

 I have used the internal intercom on the SL30 for 

several years and it

 works quite nicely.

 

 Is there any reason why you would not use the internal 

intercom in the Garmin

 GNC255 ?

 

 Paul

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:24 am Post subject: Re: Intercom Do you need one

Hi David,

I am late on that one but I would like to add some comments.  I am using a separate intercom (Flightcom 403) as my radio does not have a built in one . Now I am thinking at the possible architecture of my future 8.33 installation. It is very tempting to withdraw the intercom, therefore saving panel space and making the wiring simpler, but I see one big drawback: controlling the intercom function would be a lot more complicated.  I have reviewed the Pilot Guide and the Install Manual of the Garmin GTR 225 and GNC 255 radios. There is no dedicated controls for the intercom function on those units. 

With a separate intercom, when you need to adjust the volume or the squelch of the intercom, you just rotate a dedicated knob, which is intuitive and very quick. With the GTR225/GNC255 you have to scroll through several pages of menu , using several multifunction buttons and knobs with a risk of making a mistake. In fact this is a configuration task, better not do be done in flight.

BTW switching from the 25 to the 8.33 kHz modes with those new Garmin radios is also a configuration task, so I am afraid it will not be easy to handle the transition period, which may last for several years, where both modes will be used by ATC. May be keeping our old radio for use in the 25kHz mode and use the new one for the 8.33 mode only?

Remi Guerner

F-PGKL

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:01 am Post subject: Intercom Do you need one

Hi Remy



Am I missing something here?  Why do you need to switch modes to work in the

25 spacing?  Does not the 8.33 spacing simply provide 2 extra frequencies in

the gap between the exiting 25 spaced ones?



Regards



Pete

--

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:05 am Post subject: Intercom Do you need one

Remi, Yes it is a complex issue and a pretty expensive one 

too. I have been persuaded though that the intercom 

facility on the Garmin GNC 255 or GTR 225 is good and I do 

plan to scrap my Flightcom intercom. With a 255 costing 

the wrong side of Â£3000 I have on the other hand been 

seriously tempted to buy the simplest small 8.33Khz radio 

at around Â£1000 and fit that in addition to my SL30. There 

is also the question for us oldies of pilot  'Sell by 

Dates'. I ask myself whether I shall still be flying in 

2017! My heart says Yes, Of course,  but the head might 

come up with a different answer!

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ (just received my first free 

TV licence)

On Wed,  6 Nov 2013 05:24:50 -0800

  "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<air.guerner(at)orange.fr>

 

 Hi David,

 I am late on that one but I would like to add some 

comments.  I am using a separate intercom (Flightcom 403) 

as my radio does not have a built in one . Now I am 

thinking at the possible architecture of my future 8.33 

installation. It is very tempting to withdraw the 

intercom, therefore saving panel space and making the 

wiring simpler, but I see one big drawback: controlling 

the intercom function would be a lot more complicated.  I 

have reviewed the Pilot Guide and the Install Manual of 

the Garmin GTR 225 and GNC 255 radios. There is no 

dedicated controls for the intercom function on those 

units. 

 With a separate intercom, when you need to adjust the 

volume or the squelch of the intercom, you just rotate a 

dedicated knob, which is intuitive and very quick. With 

the GTR225/GNC255 you have to scroll through several 

pages of menu , using several multifunction buttons and 

knobs with a risk of making a mistake. In fact this is a 

configuration task, better not do be done in flight.

 BTW switching from the 25 to the 8.33 kHz modes with 

those new Garmin radios is also a configuration task, so 

I am afraid it will not be easy to handle the transition 

period, which may last for several years, where both 

modes will be used by ATC. May be keeping our old radio 

for use in the 25kHz mode and use the new one for the 

8.33 mode only?

 Remi Guerner

F-PGKL

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=412252#412252

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:20 am Post subject: Intercom Do you need one

On 6 Nov 2013, at 13:24, Remi Guerner wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Now I am thinking at the possible architecture of my future 8.33 installation. It is very tempting to withdraw the intercom, therefore saving panel space and making the wiring simpler, but I see one big drawback: controlling the intercom function would be a lot more complicated


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   BTW switching from the 25 to the 8.33 kHz modes with those new Garmin radios is also a configuration task


	


Remi - my comments, for what they are worth!



I have just decided, based on recent comments in this forum, to delete the intercom from my panel (which is not yet built, but exists as many drawing and wiring diagrams, plus loose parts). I was originally planning to install a 25kHz mode radio as I'd picked up one at a good price. However, the length of time it's taken me to build the aircraft means that I'll probably need a 8.3kHz radio shortly after it's finished, so I decided to get one anyway and sell the other one.



So, I've got a Funkwerk ATR833 now.



I made comparisons of the intercom capabilities between the PS Engineering PM 1000 II (also a second-hand bargain) and the internal one in the ATR833 and found there was little to choose. The radio squelch is not directly accessible but is quite easy - pressing one button changes the volume knob to act as squelch, and it flips back to volume control after 10s inactivity. Intercom VOX setting is reached by pressing the same button 3 times, but my experience with many hired aircraft is that I very seldom need to adjust either the radio squelch or the intercom VOX, once set up. There is a single VOX control for both P1 & P2, but separate mic gain settings are available which could be useful if headsets do not match.



I looked at the ergonomics of several 8.33kHz radios and found that the ATR833 was the only one in my price bracket that automatically chooses between 25kHz & 8.33kHz, depending on the numbers entered. You can also force it to 25kHz only for slightly faster frequency entry (saves 1 digit), but the automatic mode seems most user-friendly and avoids in-flight reconfig.



Of course, I have not yet flown with my proposed setup so its success remains to be seen, but you may be interested in what led to my decisions.



in friendship



Rowland



| Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

danny shepherd

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 117
Location: north Wales, United Kingdom

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:46 am Post subject: Intercom Do you need one

Hi Roland,

                   I have been flying now five years with the funkwerk 

ATR833, and have no problems what so ever. I find it very easy to use 

and very intuative.

When I bought mine it was a "Filser"  .

Cheers Danny. G-c.e.r.i

On 06/11/2013 06:19, Rowland Carson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On 6 Nov 2013, at 13:24, Remi Guerner wrote:

> Now I am thinking at the possible architecture of my future 8.33 installation. It is very tempting to withdraw the intercom, therefore saving panel space and making the wiring simpler, but I see one big drawback: controlling the intercom function would be a lot more complicated

> BTW switching from the 25 to the 8.33 kHz modes with those new Garmin radios is also a configuration task

 Remi - my comments, for what they are worth!

 I have just decided, based on recent comments in this forum, to delete the intercom from my panel (which is not yet built, but exists as many drawing and wiring diagrams, plus loose parts). I was originally planning to install a 25kHz mode radio as I'd picked up one at a good price. However, the length of time it's taken me to build the aircraft means that I'll probably need a 8.3kHz radio shortly after it's finished, so I decided to get one anyway and sell the other one.

 So, I've got a Funkwerk ATR833 now.

 I made comparisons of the intercom capabilities between the PS Engineering PM 1000 II (also a second-hand bargain) and the internal one in the ATR833 and found there was little to choose. The radio squelch is not directly accessible but is quite easy - pressing one button changes the volume knob to act as squelch, and it flips back to volume control after 10s inactivity. Intercom VOX setting is reached by pressing the same button 3 times, but my experience with many hired aircraft is that I very seldom need to adjust either the radio squelch or the intercom VOX, once set up. There is a single VOX control for both P1 & P2, but separate mic gain settings are available which could be useful if headsets do not match.

 I looked at the ergonomics of several 8.33kHz radios and found that the ATR833 was the only one in my price bracket that automatically chooses between 25kHz & 8.33kHz, depending on the numbers entered. You can also force it to 25kHz only for slightly faster frequency entry (saves 1 digit), but the automatic mode seems most user-friendly and avoids in-flight reconfig.

 Of course, I have not yet flown with my proposed setup so its success remains to be seen, but you may be interested in what led to my decisions.

 in friendship

 Rowland

 | Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

 | <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

 | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

 | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

 -----

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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:00 am Post subject: Intercom Do you need one

Roland, I have no doubt you are aware of it, but for the 

sake of others still doing their thinking it will not be 

possible in the EU from 17/11/13 to get a new plane 

accepted without an 8.33 radio. Regards, David Joyce, 

G-XSDJ

On Wed, 6 Nov 2013 14:19:39 +0000

  Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>

 

 On 6 Nov 2013, at 13:24, Remi Guerner wrote:

 

> Now I am thinking at the possible architecture of my 

>future 8.33 installation. It is very tempting to withdraw 

>the intercom, therefore saving panel space and making the 

>wiring simpler, but I see one big drawback: controlling 

>the intercom function would be a lot more complicated

 

> BTW switching from the 25 to the 8.33 kHz modes with 

>those new Garmin radios is also a configuration task

 

 Remi - my comments, for what they are worth!

 

 I have just decided, based on recent comments in this 

forum, to delete the intercom from my panel (which is not 

yet built, but exists as many drawing and wiring 

diagrams, plus loose parts). I was originally planning to 

install a 25kHz mode radio as I'd picked up one at a good 

price. However, the length of time it's taken me to build 

the aircraft means that I'll probably need a 8.3kHz radio 

shortly after it's finished, so I decided to get one 

anyway and sell the other one.

 

 So, I've got a Funkwerk ATR833 now.

 

 I made comparisons of the intercom capabilities between 

the PS Engineering PM 1000 II (also a second-hand 

bargain) and the internal one in the ATR833 and found 

there was little to choose. The radio squelch is not 

directly accessible but is quite easy - pressing one 

button changes the volume knob to act as squelch, and it 

flips back to volume control after 10s inactivity. 

Intercom VOX setting is reached by pressing the same 

button 3 times, but my experience with many hired 

aircraft is that I very seldom need to adjust either the 

radio squelch or the intercom VOX, once set up. There is 

a single VOX control for both P1 & P2, but separate mic 

gain settings are available which could be useful if 

headsets do not match.

 

 I looked at the ergonomics of several 8.33kHz radios and 

found that the ATR833 was the only one in my price 

bracket that automatically chooses between 25kHz & 

8.33kHz, depending on the numbers entered. You can also 

force it to 25kHz only for slightly faster frequency 

entry (saves 1 digit), but the automatic mode seems most 

user-friendly and avoids in-flight reconfig.

 

 Of course, I have not yet flown with my proposed setup 

so its success remains to be seen, but you may be 

interested in what led to my decisions.

 

 in friendship

 

 Rowland

 

 | Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' 

...

 | <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> 

           http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

 | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland 

Carson

 | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

 

 

 

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pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:11 am Post subject: Intercom Do you need one

Hi All



For the LAA it's only the radio that needs to be accepted prior to the 17

November.



So if you are flight testing a new build in the UK get the radio test done

and submit the paperwork for the radio to the LAA prior to the 17th.



Regards



Pete



--

john.heykoop(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:56 am Post subject: Intercom Do you need one

David



I do envy you youngsters. I did not finish building my plane until I was 79 and have now had three great years flying it. The odds of passing my class 2 medical must be worsening all the time, but on the other hand I don't feel any different and might stay fit and well until my nineties. So to hell with the expense, next year I will definitely invest in a 8.25Khz radio.



There are quite a number of Europa pilots who are getting on a bit, and my advice to them would be not to give up prematurely. I reckon the physical and mental effort of flying and maintaining a Europa and the sheer enjoyment it provides are things that help to keep one young. Of course, if you start to develop a medical problem, or if you notice your flying starts to deteriorate, then it would be foolish to continue. But until then, enjoy!



Regards



John

XS Mono G-JHKP



On 6 Nov 2013, at 14:03, "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   There is also the question for us oldies of pilot  'Sell by Dates'. I ask myself whether I shall still be flying in 2017! My heart says Yes, Of course,  but the head might come up with a different answer!

 Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ (just received my first free TV licence)

alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:55 am Post subject: Intercom Do you need one

For those in the UK beware. Icom currently have this statement on their specification for the IC-A6



NOTICE FOR USE for IC-A6E and IC-A24E VHF

AIRBAND TRANSCEIVERS

These versions of the IC-A6E and IC-A24E comply with

requirements of the European Radio and Telecommunication

Terminal Directive 1999/5/EC and are RTTE and CE approved.

At present, full approval for air use is not attainable for these

products or any other product at this level in the market place.

Therefore, the IC-A6E and IC-A24E are both intended for use in

Europe for ground use only*. Under the Wireless and Telegraphy

Act of 2006 these radios can be used for emergency

communication and navigation (VOR) should your life be at risk.

*Unless an aviation body in an EU member state gives

dispensation for it to be used in the air.





My understanding from sources is there is currently no handheld 8.33kHz capable radio in the UK with an approval for use in an aircraft and boo dispensation has been given.

Sad state of affair but there we have it if some one can prove it wrong then please do!

I have the ATR833 in use and can confirm it is a nice radio and the controls for the Intercom easy to get at with simple three pushes of the select button and then twiddle the knob to change the i/c volume. I find once set on  the ground it does not need changing in the air but have found it easy to do anyway.

Alan

#0303

On 6 Nov 2013, at 16:54, John Heykoop <john.heykoop(at)gmail.com (john.heykoop(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: John Heykoop <john.heykoop(at)gmail.com (john.heykoop(at)gmail.com)>



David



I do envy you youngsters. I did not finish building my plane until I was 79 and have now had three great years flying it. The odds of passing my class 2 medical must be worsening all the time, but on the other hand I don't feel any different and might stay fit and well until my nineties. So to hell with the expense, next year I will definitely invest in a 8.25Khz radio.



There are quite a number of Europa pilots who are getting on a bit, and my advice to them would be not to give up prematurely. I reckon the physical and mental effort of flying and maintaining a Europa and the sheer enjoyment it provides are things that help to keep one young. Of course, if you start to develop a medical problem, or if you notice your flying starts to deteriorate, then it would be foolish to continue. But until then, enjoy!



Regards



John

XS Mono G-JHKP



On 6 Nov 2013, at 14:03, "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:



[quote]There is also the question for us oldies of pilot  'Sell by Dates'. I ask myself whether I shall still be flying in 2017! My heart says Yes, Of course,  but the head might come up with a different answer!

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ (just received my first free TV           (And Get AeroElectric http://www.matronics.com/co                             -Matt Dralle, List          - The Europa-List   --> http://www.matroni            &n=============

[b]

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Intercom Do you need one

Pete,

I thought it was as simple as that before I read an article in the May 2013 issue of the Light Aviation magazine. You must transmit/receive on a given frequency in 25kHz mode or in 8.33 mode depending on the mode used by the ATC unit for that frequency. Let's say the required frequency is 130.025, the radio will transmit/receive on 130.025 on 25kHz mode. Now dial 130.030, the radio will transmit/receive on the same 130.025 but on 8.33kHz mode.  Crazy, isnâ€™it ? Now dial 130.035 and you will transmit/receive on 130.0333 (130.025+8.33) on 8.33 mode. Dial 130.040 and you will get 130.0416 (130.0333+8.33). Next frequency will be 130.050,  and so on....  

Remi

[quote]  Am I missing something here? Why do you need to switch modes to work in the 25 spacing? Does not the 8.33 spacing simply provide 2 extra frequencies in 

the gap between the exiting 25 spaced ones?

richard.holder(at)outlook
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:28 pm Post subject: Intercom Do you need one

On 06/11/2013 20:48, Remi Guerner wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <air.guerner(at)orange.fr>


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   I thought it was as simple as that before I read an

 article in the May 2013 issue of the Light Aviation

 magazine. You must transmit/receive on a given

 frequency in 25kHz mode or in 8.33 mode depending on

 the mode used by the ATC unit for that frequency. Let's

 say the required frequency is 130.025, the radio will

 transmit/receive on 130.025 on 25kHz mode. Now dial

 130.030, the radio will transmit/receive on the same

 130.025 but on 8.33kHz mode.  Crazy, isnâ€™it ? Now

 dial 130.035 and you will transmit/receive on 130.0333

 (130.025+8.33) on 8.33 mode. Dial 130.040 and you will

 get 130.0416 (130.0333+8.33). Next frequency will be

 130.050,  and so on.... Remi


	


Exactly right.



[quote]  	  Quote: 	
		    Am I missing something here? Why do you need

 to switch modes to work in the 25 spacing? Does not the

 8.33 spacing simply provide 2 extra frequencies in the

 gap between the exiting 25 spaced ones?


	


It is to do with the accuracy of the transmissions. a

25kHz transmitter will span more of the spectrum than a

8.33kkHz transmitter. Thus all the 833 frequencies are

distinct and don't step on and over each other.



If a base station retains the (using the above example) 

130.025 frequency, staying in 25kHz mode, then the two 

(833) frequencies either side will not be usable within 

transmission distance.

Now that I am on, I will give you my take on intercoms.



A proper stand alone intercom will have two microphone 

circuits (sometimes four or six) - each independent. Thus 

each microphone will have its own circuit.



The problem with using the intercom provided in a radio is 

that they usually only have one microphone circuit and 

therefore microphones have to be connected in parallel. 

This leads to the oft quoted problem that David Clark 

headsets are incompatible with other makes.



David Clark have low impedance microphones which if a DC 

and a non-DC are connected in parallel, will swamp the 

non-DC microphone. Thus leading to the "incompatibility" tag.



In an aircraft with a "proper" (separate) intercom, there 

will be no incompatibility issues with DC headsets as each 

microphone has a separate circuit.



I know the KX125 I have has only one microphone circuit 

available so I have a separate intercom. Other radios may 

have more than one mike circuit (and therefore probably 

more than one PTT circuit) but I am not aware of them.



I suggest therefore that throwing away your intercom may 

not be a good idea with certain radios. Obviously if you 

only connect one headset up then the radio intercom is 

fine, but with one one headset you don't have anyone to 

communicate with through the intercom !!!!!!!



Richard Holder

G-OWWW

aka ANRMAN

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:17 pm Post subject: Intercom Do you need one

Hi Remi



I was indeed missing something! And missed that article thanks for the

pointer. What a crazy set up only the EU bureaucrats could dream that one

up. Still I have no plans to change till I have to in 4 years time and by

then it may be sorted out.



Regards



Pete



--

rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 am Post subject: Intercom Do you need one

On 6 Nov 2013, at 22:46, danny shepherd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have been flying now five years with the funkwerk ATR833, and have no problems what so ever. I find it very easy to use and very intuative.

 When I bought mine it was a "Filser"  .


	


Danny - thanks for your encouraging message.



By the way, as perhaps a final postscript to this thread, my intercom (PS Engineering PM 1000 II model 11902 serial VJ-09895) is now forsale on the Sales section of the LAA bulletin board.



in friendship



Rowland



| Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

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