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Change of plans

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rowedenny

Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:50 am Post subject: Change of plans

I recently approached my friend and co-owner of my Mk 3 about my desire to upgrade to a used 912 to improve our take-off performance. Due to his busy business schedule, he has only rode in the Kolb twice with me in the 10 years it has been in operation, and only participated in the construction as a financial partner. I did 100% of the build and also hanger and fly it from my home.

Not surprisingly he asked instead if I was interested in buying him out. Of course I am, but this unexpected expense, as well as doubling of my share of a new engine has eliminated any chance of me affording a 912 setup any time soon.

Enter plan B. 

Have decided to build a 670cc Rotax sled engine into an 85hp aircraft engine. 

I'll be relying on Rotax Rick to do the bottom end as there is extensive machine work on the PTO end of the crankshaft as well as the cases to make it work with the aircraft gearbox and to fit the 582 ceramic water pump seal. The top end and cooling system I'll handle. 

Will also be using Ricks 618 style exhaust to insure the power delivery is smoothed out for our application. 

Also helping to make this a more affordable installation is the ability to use the same prop from my current engine as well as all the probes and EIS unit. Additionally I'll also use two of the three Bing carbs from my 2SI engine as I swapped them out for 28mm Mikunis a couple years ago. Should be a very straight forward swap, and using the same prop is going to make it clear how much more power the new engine has over my 690.

My 690 has been a 'SMOOTH', solid engine and performs fine other than the gearbox being incessantly leaky, but flying out of my 600 foot strip in the middle of the woods makes me desire more climb performance.

The engine core is on it's way from a sled salvage outfit as I type. 

Let the discussion commence.



Dennis "Skid" Rowe

Mk3, 690L-70, Leechburg, PA

russk50(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:33 am Post subject: Change of plans

Dennis, THANK YOU for sharing your experiences & future ones as well. That will be enormously helpful to the List;

this sort of thing is what it's all about

Fair winds & happy 670cc-ing

Russ



On Dec 4, 2013, at 10:49 AM, Dennis Rowe wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I recently approached my friend and co-owner of my Mk 3 about my desire to upgrade to a used 912 to improve our take-off performance. Due to his busy business schedule, he has only rode in the Kolb twice with me in the 10 years it has been in operation, and only participated in the construction as a financial partner. I did 100% of the build and also hanger and fly it from my home.

 Not surprisingly he asked instead if I was interested in buying him out. Of course I am, but this unexpected expense, as well as doubling of my share of a new engine has eliminated any chance of me affording a 912 setup any time soon.

 Enter plan B. 

 Have decided to build a 670cc Rotax sled engine into an 85hp aircraft engine. 

 I'll be relying on Rotax Rick to do the bottom end as there is extensive machine work on the PTO end of the crankshaft as well as the cases to make it work with the aircraft gearbox and to fit the 582 ceramic water pump seal. The top end and cooling system I'll handle. 

 Will also be using Ricks 618 style exhaust to insure the power delivery is smoothed out for our application. 

 Also helping to make this a more affordable installation is the ability to use the same prop from my current engine as well as all the probes and EIS unit. Additionally I'll also use two of the three Bing carbs from my 2SI engine as I swapped them out for 28mm Mikunis a couple years ago. Should be a very straight forward swap, and using the same prop is going to make it clear how much more power the new engine has over my 690.

 My 690 has been a 'SMOOTH', solid engine and performs fine other than the gearbox being incessantly leaky, but flying out of my 600 foot strip in the middle of the woods makes me desire more climb performance.

 The engine core is on it's way from a sled salvage outfit as I type. 

 Let the discussion commence.

 

 Dennis "Skid" Rowe

 Mk3, 690L-70, Leechburg, PA

Rick Lewis

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 122
Location: Kingston, Tn.

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Change of plans

I can feel your pain for the lousy partnership in your Kolb.  I went through the same situation with a partner.  Building an aircraft with a partner does not work, does not work.....will never do it again....

_________________
Rick Lewis

(VW Watercooled Engine)

agramjak(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:11 pm Post subject: Change of plans

My experience is: works great, really bad, works great. Afraid to try it again, seems like really bad is next



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:43 PM, "Rick Lewis" <cktman(at)wildblue.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 I can feel your pain for the lousy partnership in your Kolb.  I went through the same situation with a partner.  Building an aircraft with a partner does not work, does not work.....will never do it again....

 

 --------

 Rick Lewis

 

 (VW Watercooled Engine)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414868#414868

rowedenny

Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:42 pm Post subject: Change of plans

Guys,

Didn't mean to give the impression I have been unhappy with my Kolb co-owner. Even though I did all the building and maintenance, I enjoyed it and since it was my third aircraft build, I had strong ideas of how I wanted to do things. Also basing it at my home made it seem like I was the sole owner.  since I was doing all the flying anyway, I haven't even asked him for any $ toward upgrades such as the carb conversion and other upgrades I've done. Which means my buy out cost has not gone up in 6 years 

Jay was a low maintenance partner. Also was nice to have only half the financial burden during that building period when money was tight. I am blessed to have at least four friends who I wouldn't hesitate to partner in an airplane with. In fact two of them are my current partners in our 1948 Cessna 170 project and my outgoing Kolb partner Jay Swager is another. You meet the nicest people at airports.

Dennis "Skid" Rowe

Mk3, 690L-70, Leechburg, PA

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:11 PM, Will Ricketts <agramjak(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 My experience is: works great, really bad, works great. Afraid to try it again, seems like really bad is next

 Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:43 PM, "Rick Lewis" <cktman(at)wildblue.net> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> I can feel your pain for the lousy partnership in your Kolb.  I went through the same situation with a partner.  Building an aircraft with a partner does not work, does not work.....will never do it again....

> 

> --------

> Rick Lewis

> 

> (VW Watercooled 

 	  Quote:

Carolina Flyer

Joined: 03 Oct 2010
Posts: 62
Location: Buffalo, South Carolina

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Change of plans

Dennis,

Good luck with your  670 build. I know Rick real well, and I am sure he will 

do a good job doing the Machine work for you. I have two 670's myself, but I have decided that a Rotax 618 has plenty of enough ponies for my Firestar II

The 618 I have needs to be rebuilt and I plan on having Rick do the work for me. I was real lucky this summer to find a Brand New 618 exhaust on E-Bay, it has never been used. I also plan on letting Rick doing a 670 for me as I plan to have a Two Place side by side one day. Hopefully it will be a Mark III Extra

or a  stretched avid flyer.



Anyway keep us informed on your Progress

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_________________
Kolb Firestar II
503 C-Box / RK400
Soon to have a
Rotax 670 DCDI
with a C-Box and
RK 400 Clutch

Challenger II
503 Tall Drive

Location : Buffalo South Carolina

Carolina Flyer

Joined: 03 Oct 2010
Posts: 62
Location: Buffalo, South Carolina

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Change of plans

Just some info that some may not know. All 670's that Rotax made are not a good  candidate's to be converted for aviation use. That is if you want Dual Ignition. and some are not easily made to be provision 8. Their are 2 years that are preferred the 93 and 94 model year. If the 670 has a black rubber cover on the Mag end then you will not be able to have it become Dual Ignition   

Many people think that Rotax was planning on making the 670 into an aviation engine like they did with the 617 that became a 618. If they did it would have been  competition for the 912.



here is a picture of the early model PTO end, that can be made to accept a  

c-box or e-box. you could even use a b-box but I think it would not hold up to all the extra HP

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_________________
Kolb Firestar II
503 C-Box / RK400
Soon to have a
Rotax 670 DCDI
with a C-Box and
RK 400 Clutch

Challenger II
503 Tall Drive

Location : Buffalo South Carolina

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Change of plans

 	  Carolina Flyer wrote: 	
		  Dennis,

Good luck with your  670 build. I know Rick real well, and I am sure he will 

do a good job doing the Machine work for you. I have two 670's myself, but I have decided that a Rotax 618 has plenty of enough ponies for my Firestar II

The 618 I have needs to be rebuilt and I plan on having Rick do the work for me. I was real lucky this summer to find a Brand New 618 exhaust on E-Bay, it has never been used. I also plan on letting Rick doing a 670 for me as I plan to have a Two Place side by side one day. Hopefully it will be a Mark III Extra

or a  stretched avid flyer.



Anyway keep us informed on your Progress 	




Noticed that you are thinking of going big block on your FSII: feel free to contact me if you need any ideas or pictures of how we added structure to beef up the upper fuselage. Back before we began our conversion, Kolb was concerned about the extra torque from the bigger engine being a potentially serious problem for the stock tubing.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

rowedenny

Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:31 am Post subject: Change of plans

Richard offers some sound advice, a 582 or 618 is really getting up there for a Firestar 2. Careful throttle control is highly advised.

Further clarification of the non 93-94 Rotax 670 engine cases that are not dual Ducati ignition compatible and possibly not provision 8 compatible. If there is a big hole in the top of the Magneto end housing that may have a black plastic cover over it, the Ducati ignition will not bolt up.  

Dennis "Skid" Rowe

Mk3, 690L-70, Leechburg, PA

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Dec 5, 2013, at 10:37 AM, "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org> wrote:

 Carolina Flyer wrote:

> Dennis,

> Good luck with your  670 build. I know Rick real well, and I am sure he will 

> do a good job doing the Machine work for you. I have two 670's myself, but I have decided that a Rotax 618 has plenty of enough ponies for my Firestar II

> The 618 I have needs to be rebuilt and I plan on having Rick do the work for me. I was real lucky this summer to find a Brand New 618 exhaust on E-Bay, it has never been used. I also plan on letting Rick doing a 670 for me as I plan to have a Two Place side by side one day. Hopefully it will be a Mark III Extra

> or a  stretched avid flyer.

> 

> Anyway keep us informed on your Progress

 Noticed that you are thinking of going big block on your FSII: feel free to contact me if you need any ideas or pictures of how we added structure to beef up the upper fuselage. Back before we began our conversion, Kolb was concerned about the extra torque from the bigger engine being a potentially serious problem for the stock tubing.

 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 

 Hebrews 11:1

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414909#414909

Carolina Flyer

Joined: 03 Oct 2010
Posts: 62
Location: Buffalo, South Carolina

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Change of plans

Hello Richard Pike,

In regards to strengthening the cage for the additional torque of a 618. I called the Kolb Factory and they told me I should talk to Denise Jackson  

(The Factory's Welder) and him and I discussed this matter and I am going to use his advice. I am having the modification done this winter once deer 

season is over. I do not Hunt but the Welder that does all of my Welding for me is a Deer Hunter.  Once the Modification has been completed I will post some Pictures.

Joe

_________________
Kolb Firestar II
503 C-Box / RK400
Soon to have a
Rotax 670 DCDI
with a C-Box and
RK 400 Clutch

Challenger II
503 Tall Drive

Location : Buffalo South Carolina

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