Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Fuel Level Senders

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

dabear

Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA

Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:43 pm Post subject: Fuel Level Senders

Who out there has the new bladder tanks in their CJ?  What fuel senders are

you using?  Are you having any problems with the foam causing incorrect

readings?



Bear

Firedog(at)visi.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:10 am Post subject: Fuel Level Senders

Bear,



Kelley Monroe and I put in the bladder tanks last winter...of course winter

covers most of the months here in Minnesota, but I digress.

Kelley spent countless hours trying to solve the host of issues concerning

accurate fuel gauge readings.

The chase started with the correctly sized resistors at the sending units;

the calibrating of gauges through the known fuel levels...drain and

measure...drain and measure.

He spoke repeatedly with the bladder designer in AZ...and the manufacturer

of the sending units...this is not a foam in the tank issue.

We considered preparing an article for the Red Star but did not get it done

yet...your inquiry may be a good reason to formally write about it.

Bottom line, I have come to accept that the fuel gauges provide me "notice"

of "you're at 20 gallons and dropping" per side readings. 

I have not and cannot get the sender to provide me with a real time reading

from the top of the tank to "bingo".



Kelley is in Chicago until Monday and thus off line.  When he returns, I'm

sure he will add and correct (encouraged) my posting.



I love having the longer range tanks for the peace of mind factor...and you

will as well.

Merry Christmas to all Yaksters



 	  Quote: 	
		  From the frozen waste land,

Robert
	


N6343U       



--

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:36 am Post subject: Fuel Level Senders

If you opt for a fuel flow instrument, like for example the JPI FS450G.  Once you have the K factor calibrated, you will know within less than a half gallon of the remaining fuel in both tanks.  ANY fuel gauge should be considered only an estimate or approximation of the remaining fuel in the tank, including the CJ's fuel instrument as well as the Yak 52's fuel instrument.  The JPI will not only display fuel remaining, it will display the fuel flow at the current power setting and the time to empty at the current fuel flow.  Interface it to a GPS, including a portable GPS like a Garmin 396 or 496, and it will also calculate fuel required to destination, fuel remaining when you arrive at your destination and finally miles per gallon.  With Miles Per Gallon, you will see precisely what affect your throttle and prop  control positions have on MPG at various altitudes.  This I found to be one of the most valuable additions to not only Yak's and CJ's, but to any airplane.



Dennis  





        From: Dr. Robert Schroeder <Firedog(at)visi.com>

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2013 7:09 AM

 Subject: RE: Fuel Level Senders

  

 

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Dr. Robert Schroeder" <Firedog(at)visi.com (Firedog(at)visi.com)>



Bear,



Kelley Monroe and I put in the bladder tanks last winter...of course winter

covers most of the months here in Minnesota, but I digress.

Kelley spent countless hours trying to solve the host of issues concerning

accurate fuel gauge readings.

The chase started with the correctly sized resistors at the sending units;

the calibrating of gauges through the known fuel levels...drain and

measure...drain and measure.

He spoke repeatedly with the bladder designer in AZ...and the manufacturer

of the sending units...this is not a foam in the tank issue.

We considered preparing an article for the Red Star but did not get it done

yet...your inquiry may be a good reason to formally write about it.

Bottom line, I have come to accept that the fuel gauges provide me "notice"

of "you're at 20 gallons and dropping" per side readings. 

I have not and cannot  get the sender to provide me with a real time reading

from the top of the tank to "bingo".



Kelley is in Chicago until Monday and thus off line.  When he returns, I'm

sure he will add and correct (encouraged) my posting.



I love having the longer range tanks for the peace of mind factor...and you

will as well.

Merry Christmas to all Yaksters



 	  Quote: 	
		  From the frozen waste land,

Robert
	


N6343U       



--

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:43 am Post subject: Fuel Level Senders

Dennis' solution  is the best way to go. 

We have the fuel bladders on our Yak 52 in France.

There's no simple (affordable) replacement for the original fuel gauge system (senders + device).

The original fuel gauge system (at least on the Yak, I don't know about the Nanchang) is of high quality. 

It does NOT work on a capacitative basis.

We've looked for a decent replacement, and the best that we could find of the same quality would cost more than 10000 euros (more than 12000 dollars?).

Only my 2 cents,

Jan

PS: for those in Europe who might wonder and ask: the installation of these fuel bladders on our Yak 52 has been discussed with the Yakovlev Design Bureau. 

YDB agreed because there's no change in balance.

The restriction YDB imposes is to not have more than 120 liters when flying aerobatics. 

The French authorities agree with the Russian point of view and so they accepted it as an exception for our plane.

This does not mean that it's allowed for everyone in Europe (not even in France) to install them without asking.





From:  "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>

Reply-To:  "yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>

Date:  Saturday 21 December 2013 14:36

To:  "yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>

Subject:  Re: Fuel Level Senders



If you opt for a fuel flow instrument, like for example the JPI FS450G.  Once you have the K factor calibrated, you will know within less than a half gallon of the remaining fuel in both tanks.  ANY fuel gauge should be considered only an estimate or approximation of the remaining fuel in the tank, including the CJ's fuel instrument as well as the Yak 52's fuel instrument.  The JPI will not only display fuel remaining, it will display the fuel flow at the current power setting and the time to empty at the current fuel flow.  Interface it to a GPS, including a portable GPS like a Garmin 396 or 496, and it will also calculate fuel required to destination, fuel remaining when you arrive at your destination and finally miles per gallon.  With Miles Per Gallon, you will see precisely what affect your throttle and prop  control positions have on MPG at various altitudes.  This I found to be one of the most valuable additions to not only Yak's and CJ's, but to any airplane.



Dennis  





        From: Dr. Robert Schroeder <Firedog(at)visi.com (Firedog(at)visi.com)>

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2013 7:09 AM

 Subject: RE: Fuel Level Senders

  

 

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Dr. Robert Schroeder" <Firedog(at)visi.com (Firedog(at)visi.com)>



Bear,



Kelley Monroe and I put in the bladder tanks last winter...of course winter

covers most of the months here in Minnesota, but I digress.

Kelley spent countless hours trying to solve the host of issues concerning

accurate fuel gauge readings.

The chase started with the correctly sized resistors at the sending units;

the calibrating of gauges through the known fuel levels...drain and

measure...drain and measure.

He spoke repeatedly with the bladder designer in AZ...and the manufacturer

of the sending units...this is not a foam in the tank issue.

We considered preparing an article for the Red Star but did not get it done

yet...your inquiry may be a good reason to formally write about it.

Bottom line, I have come to accept that the fuel gauges provide me "notice"

of "you're at 20 gallons and dropping" per side readings. 

I have not and cannot  get the sender to provide me with a real time reading

from the top of the tank to "bingo".



Kelley is in Chicago until Monday and thus off line.  When he returns, I'm

sure he will add and correct (encouraged) my posting.



I love having the longer range tanks for the peace of mind factor...and you

will as well.

Merry Christmas to all Yaksters



 	  Quote: 	
		  From the frozen waste land,

Robert
	


N6343U       



--

cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:34 am Post subject: Fuel Level Senders

I agree with Dennis, the FS450 fuel totalizer can be set pretty close to actual burn. Since it has an averaging function, spot readings are frequently off, such as when power settings are changed. Takes a while to average out but overall consumption can be close enough for the prudent pilot.



Meanwhile, we Phearless Phlorida Phlyers still brave record heat with stout hearts! I wasn't easy on Saturday while performing a post-maintenance, low level speed run due to hot gusty winds, bumpy thermals and high humidity. My sympathies to you guys in the frozen wasteland, I'm with you in spirit 



Craig Payne

jblake207(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:13 am Post subject: Fuel Level Senders

Back in the good ole days when I was an IP, I'd tell pilots the best fuel gage was on their wrist.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

  

I've had the FS 450 installed in my last four airplanes.  It pays for itself just in terms of saving fuel burned landing and refuelingâ€¦ not to mention the peace of mind.  I regularly make the flight from the Gulf Coast to the Outer Banks of NC in my Arrow; normally about 4.5 hours, but when winds arenâ€™t favorable the Fuel Totalizer gives me enough accurate information to press or land and refuel.  9 out of 10 times I can press on with the comfortable knowledge that I will have enough fuel.  Same is true in my Nanchangâ€¦ In the Arrow, the amount burned is always within a gallon indicated.  The CJ is not always as accurate since it takes time for fuel to flow from tank to tank, but it is usually within about 3 gallons.  The trick is to refuel as slowly as possible in the CJ.  For example, I flew the CJ this past weekend and refueled at the FBO while cross country.  Amount taken on and amount burned were off by 4 gallonsâ€¦  When I got home and refueled slowly the Delta was about 1.5 gallons.   

  

 



 Jon Blake

jblake207(at)comcast.net



  From: "DaBear" <dabear(at)damned.org>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Friday, December 20, 2013 10:43:20 PM

Subject: Fuel Level Senders



--> Yak-List message posted by: "DaBear" <dabear(at)damned.org>



Who out there has the new bladder tanks in their CJ?  What fuel senders are

you using?  Are you having any problems with the foam causing incorrect

readings?





 [quote][b]

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:00 am Post subject: Fuel Level Senders

Precisely my point too about fuel       gauges.

       

       For clarification, I'm pretty sure Jon's CJ does not have the       bladder tanks.  He has the original main tanks in the outboard       wings and "Aux" tanks in the wing stub on both side of the       airplane.  That is why he mentions fuel flowing from tank to tank       when filling up.

       

       Jon, please correct me if I misunderstood your statement.

       

       Dennis

        	  Quote: 	
		  A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1 	
       On 12/23/2013 9:13 AM, jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net) wrote:

     

     [quote]       p { margin: 0; }                

Back             in the good ole days when I was an IP, I'd tell pilots the             best fuel gage was on their wrist.         

          

I've             had the FS 450 installed in my last four airplanes.  It pays             for itself just in terms of saving fuel burned landing and             refueling… not to mention the peace of mind.  I regularly make the             flight from the Gulf Coast to the Outer Banks of NC in my             Arrow; normally about 4.5 hours, but when winds aren’t             favorable the Fuel Totalizer gives me enough accurate             information to press or land and refuel.  9 out of 10 times I can             press on with the comfortable knowledge that I will have             enough fuel.  Same             is true in my Nanchang… In the Arrow, the amount burned is             always within a gallon indicated.  The CJ is not always as accurate since it             takes time for fuel to flow from tank to tank, but it is             usually within about 3 gallons.  The trick is to refuel as slowly as             possible in the CJ.  For             example, I flew the CJ this past weekend and refueled at the             FBO while cross country.  Amount             taken on and amount burned were off by 4 gallons…  When I got home and             refueled slowly the Delta was about 1.5 gallons.           

          

          

         

         Jon Blake

           jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)

           

         

         

                  From: "DaBear" <dabear(at)damned.org> (dabear(at)damned.org)

         To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

         Sent: Friday, December 20, 2013 10:43:20 PM

         Subject: Fuel Level Senders

         

         --> Yak-List message posted by: "DaBear"         <dabear(at)damned.org> (dabear(at)damned.org)

         

         Who out there has the new bladder tanks in their CJ?  What fuel         senders are

         you using?  Are you having any problems with the foam causing         incorrect

         readings?

         

           

           

         

        	  Quote: 	
		  



	
     [b]

dabear

Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA

Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:05 am Post subject: Fuel Level Senders

Jon, and everyone else, thanks for the comments on fuel flow, etcâ€¦Â Â Â  I

 

I should have given more information.Â  I have 30-32 gal bladders (with foam inside) on each wing of my CJ.Â  I also have a fuel flow in line to the engine from the main header tank.Â  The fuel flow accuracy is within 0.5 of a gal and that error rate is really just the level used to fill the tank and temperature.

 

The problem is I gauges are not accurate (They are changed out from the standard CJ due to going full glass in the cockpit)Â  Now, normally I donâ€™t run all 60-64 gals out of the tanks, but on a long cross country into the wind I was pushing the gauges.Â  I had almost an hour of fuel on board, however the left tank went dry and I lost the engine for a few secondsâ€¦ then with the boost pump on (facet pump replaced wobble) she ran rough, but ran enough to get to an airport.Â Â  I fueled the airplane and the left tank was completely empty and the right tank had 12 gals in it.

 

The gauges did not read correctly to tell me the fuel imbalance.

 

Bear

 

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jblake207(at)comcast.net

Sent: Monday, December 23, 2013 10:13 AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Fuel Level Senders

 

Back in the good ole days when I was an IP, I'd tell pilots the best fuel gage was on their wrist.

 

I've had the FS 450 installed in my last four airplanes.  It pays for itself just in terms of saving fuel burned landing and refuelingâ€¦ not to mention the peace of mind.Â  I regularly make the flight from the Gulf Coast to the Outer Banks of NC in my Arrow; normally about 4.5 hours, but when winds arenâ€™t favorable the Fuel Totalizer gives me enough accurate information to press or land and refuel.Â  9 out of 10 times I can press on with the comfortable knowledge that I will have enough fuel.Â  Same is true in my Nanchangâ€¦ In the Arrow, the amount burned is always within a gallon indicated.Â  The CJ is not always as accurate since it takes time for fuel to flow from tank to tank, but it is usually within about 3 gallons.Â  The trick is to refuel as slowly as possible in the CJ.Â  For example, I flew the CJ this past weekend and refueled at the FBO while cross country.Â  Amount taken on and amount burned were off by 4 gallonsâ€¦Â  When I got home and refueled slowly the Delta was about 1.5 gallons.Â  

 

 

 

Jon Blake

jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)



 



From: "DaBear" <dabear(at)damned.org (dabear(at)damned.org)>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Friday, December 20, 2013 10:43:20 PM

Subject: Fuel Level Senders



--> Yak-List message posted by: "DaBear" <dabear(at)damned.org (dabear(at)damned.org)>



Who out there has the new bladder tanks in their CJ?  What fuel senders are

you using?  Are you having any problems with the foam causing incorrect

readings?





 	  Quote: 	
		     	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
5 	  Quote: 	
		   	
6 	  Quote: 	
		   	
7 	  Quote: 	
		   	
8 	  Quote: 	
		   	
9 	  Quote: 	
		  	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  	
1 	  Quote: 	
		  	
2 	  Quote: 	
		  	
3 	  Quote: 	
		  	
4 	  Quote: 	
		  	
5 	  Quote: 	
		  	
6 	  Quote: 	
		  	
7 	  Quote: 	
		  	
8

  [quote][b]

jblake207(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:38 am Post subject: Fuel Level Senders

That's right Dennis.  Bottom line... ask Santa for a fuel flow indicator!!



 Jon Blake

jblake207(at)comcast.net



  From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Monday, December 23, 2013 9:59:20 AM

Subject: Re: Fuel Level Senders



 Precisely my point too about fuel gauges.



For clarification, I'm pretty sure Jon's CJ does not have the bladder tanks.  He has the original main tanks in the outboard wings and "Aux" tanks in the wing stub on both side of the airplane.  That is why he mentions fuel flowing from tank to tank when filling up.



Jon, please correct me if I misunderstood your statement.



Dennis

 	  Quote: 	
		  A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1 	
On 12/23/2013 9:13 AM, jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net) wrote:



 [quote] p { margin: 0; }   

Back in the good ole days when I was an IP, I'd tell pilots the best fuel gage was on their wrist. 

  

I've had the FS 450 installed in my last four airplanes.  It pays for itself just in terms of saving fuel burned landing and refuelingâ€¦ not to mention the peace of mind.  I regularly make the flight from the Gulf Coast to the Outer Banks of NC in my Arrow; normally about 4.5 hours, but when winds arenâ€™t favorable the Fuel Totalizer gives me enough accurate information to press or land and refuel.  9 out of 10 times I can press on with the comfortable knowledge that I will have enough fuel.  Same is true in my Nanchangâ€¦ In the Arrow, the amount burned is always within a gallon indicated.  The CJ is not always as accurate since it takes time for fuel to flow from tank to tank, but it is usually within about 3 gallons.  The trick is to refuel as slowly as possible in the CJ.  For example, I flew the CJ this past weekend and refueled at the FBO while cross country.  Amount taken on and amount burned were off by 4 gallonsâ€¦  When I got home and refueled slowly the Delta was about 1.5 gallons.   

  

 



 Jon Blake

jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)



  From: "DaBear" <dabear(at)damned.org> (dabear(at)damned.org)

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Friday, December 20, 2013 10:43:20 PM

Subject: Fuel Level Senders



--> Yak-List message posted by: "DaBear" <dabear(at)damned.org> (dabear(at)damned.org)



Who out there has the new bladder tanks in their CJ?  What fuel senders are

you using?  Are you having any problems with the foam causing incorrect

readings?





 	  Quote: 	
		  



	




_blank>www.aeroelectric.com

/" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com

=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com

=_blank>www.mypilotstore.com

ank>www.mrrace.com

blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution

et=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

p://forums.matronics.com

[b]

gill.g(at)gpimail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:57 am Post subject: Fuel Level Senders

Bear,



All the CJ bladders use the same sender and foam.  There have been no

reported problems with accuracy.  I f you are having a problem please feel

free to contact me directly.



Gill



--

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:11 am Post subject: Fuel Level Senders

Just a guess on my part, but Bear said he is no longer using the 

original CJ fuel instrument because of the glass panel upgrades.  

Couldn't that be a compatibility issue?

Dennis



A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1



On 12/23/2013 11:56 AM, Gill Gutierrez wrote:

[quote] 



 Bear,



 All the CJ bladders use the same sender and foam.  There have been no

 reported problems with accuracy.  I f you are having a problem please feel

 free to contact me directly.



 Gill



 --

gill.g(at)gpimail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:23 am Post subject: Fuel Level Senders

Dr Schroeder,



The sender in the bladders and in the original metal tanks cannot physically

measure fuel at the top of the tank because of the dihedral wing and thus

angled tank, high out-board filler location vs. low in board fuel level

sender location.  Sender and resister are intentionally designed to read

only the last 60 liters per side using the standard CJ fuel gauge.  Some

thought was given to refacing the gauge provide a greater measurement range

but it seemed that 2 hours of remaining fuel gave you adequate time to plan

you landing (BTW there is no reason you could increase the range, but you

would have mark or reface your fuel gauge to show as much as 90 liter per

side).  I have used the same sender in my CJ for around 10 year and find

that the gauge and fuel pump agree within a liter or two and I have never

had to recalibrate them.  I am glad you are enjoying the peace on mind of

the added fuel.



Gill 



--

Firedog(at)visi.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:15 am Post subject: Fuel Level Senders

Gill,



Thanks for your comments...I'm very satisfied with the conversion and would

encourage all who fly more than local hops to do so as well.

Stay safe and Happy Holidays to all.

ras 



--

ChangDriver

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266

Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:43 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Level Senders

Bear:



When you went glass you may only have one fuel indicator (my guess).  Either wire it so you can "look" at each tank individually with a switch of put in one of these dual ei gauges.  You would have been aware of the fuel imbalance and then been able to use Gill's vent switch system to even out your fuel burn.  I assume the senders are resistive and the CJ is 24 volt so they have one that fits this application.



http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/in/electronicsinternational_fuellevel.html



I have one in my CJ and it works well.



Chang Driver

captPod

Joined: 06 Jan 2014
Posts: 17

Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Level Senders

I recently installed a set of Gil's tanks. Never could get the senders to indicate properly up to 60 liters. They do work well if you disregard the gage markings.



We solved the problem by buying a plastic fuel quantity stick/ tube. This is indexed to the length of the tube.



Set the empty and alarm according to the directions. Stick the tank and record 15 liters.



Add fuel in 5 gallon increments, stick the tank and record that and gage quantity.



Create a simple spreadsheet with the information you obtained and do the same on the other tank. Mine were consistent left to right so I was comfortable with the gage readings. Subsequent known quantity refueling added to the gage readings has also been consistent.



create a placard and place near the gage. I used gallons, liters, stick reading and time remaining in cruise. Need the gallons for refueling known quantity to work. Use the gallons to liters tools found on internet.



Don't waste the rest of your life trying to get accurate liter readings to 60. Mine now display (converted) all the way from 30 gallons.



Mike

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum