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Ballast in front for models 2 & 3 582 engines

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cookflys

Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 17
Location: atlanta

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:58 pm Post subject: Ballast in front for models 2 & 3 582 engines

Do any of you mod 2 or 3s have any weight added to front?

I saw a model 2 and model 3 with weight added under the front engine mount. It was ice tray with lead melted in it. I have no idea how much it weighs but my model 2 tail has always seemed heavy in flight.

My battery is behind my seat. 



C Cook

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_________________
Charles Cook
Model II 582
#363

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:02 am Post subject: Re: Ballast in front for models 2 & 3 582 engines

In my humble opinion, when considering the CoG of a Kitfox, the most important thing is that, in case of elevator failure, the aircraft climbs at full throttle and descent at idle throttle.



Next, can you do a 3-points landing without difficulties? After the 582, I installed a Jabiru on my Kitfox 3 and that added weight forward. I couldn't get the tailwheel to touch the ground first when at stall speed. I then moved the battery from the bulkhead (standard place, I think, for the model 3) to, behind the seat. I still had difficulties to land 3-point. I then gap sealed the elevator and now it works.



Any lead ballast in an aircraft seems to me like a poor idea. I am sure the CoG can be placed in a better place by other means.



Cheers,

Michel

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_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

mikelaundy(at)yahoo.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:04 am Post subject: Ballast in front for models 2 & 3 582 engines

I suggest you have the aircraft accurately weighed so you can check the C of G is within limits. In my MK3 the battery is just aft of the engine bulkhead, the C of G is nicely within limits although I do find I run out of up elevator approaching the stall or when trying to do a 3 point landing.

Also on my mk 3 the angle of incidence on the horizontal stabiliser  is adjustable, you may be able to adjust that on your aircraft to make it feel less tail heavy provided the C of G is within limits.

Mike Laundy

Mk3 Rotax 582  Cornwall UK

 

 

     On Tuesday, 14 January 2014, 9:08, Michel <michel(at)online.no> wrote:

  

 [quote]  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Michel" <michel(at)online.no (michel(at)online.no)>



In my humble opinion, when considering the CoG of a Kitfox, the most important thing is that, in case of elevator failure, the aircraft  climbs at full throttle and descent at idle throttle.



Next, can you do a 3-points landing without difficulties? After the 582, I installed a Jabiru on my Kitfox 3 and that added weight forward. I couldn't get the tailwheel to touch the ground first when at stall speed. I then moved the battery from the bulkhead (standard place, I think, for the model 3) to, behind the seat. I still had difficulties to land 3-point. I then gap sealed the elevator and not it works.



Any lead ballast in an aircraft seems to me like a poor idea. I am sure the CoG can be placed in a better place by other means.



Cheers,

Michel



--------

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416883#416========================http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitp;  -->

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poasttown(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:08 am Post subject: Ballast in front for models 2 & 3 582 engines

Michel

When I had a 582 attached to the front of my Mod. IV I added some weight.  I put lead shot in a two inch PVC pipe and then glued two end caps to contain the shot.  I then attached the pipe to the cabin side of the firewall.

On a side note.  From what I hear about melting lead you need to be careful about the fumes produced from the melting process.  

Mike

1996 Kitfox IV/Jabiru

 

 

     On Tuesday, January 14, 2014 4:12 AM, Michael Laundy <mikelaundy(at)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

  

  I suggest you have the aircraft accurately weighed so you can check the C of G is within limits. In my MK3 the battery is just aft of the engine bulkhead, the C of G is nicely within limits although I do find I run out of up elevator approaching the stall or when trying to do a 3 point landing.

Also on my mk 3 the angle of incidence on the horizontal stabiliser  is adjustable, you may be able to adjust that on your aircraft to make it feel less tail heavy provided the C of G is within limits.

Mike Laundy

Mk3 Rotax 582  Cornwall UK

 

 

     On Tuesday, 14 January 2014, 9:08, Michel <michel(at)online.no> wrote:

  

  	  Quote: 	
		    --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Michel" <michel(at)online.no (michel(at)online.no)>



In my humble opinion, when  considering the CoG of a Kitfox, the most important thing is that, in case of elevator failure, the aircraft  climbs at full throttle and descent at idle throttle.



Next, can you do a 3-points landing without difficulties? After the 582, I installed a Jabiru on my Kitfox 3 and that added weight forward. I couldn't get the tailwheel to touch the ground first when at stall speed. I then moved the battery from the bulkhead (standard place, I think, for the model 3) to, behind the seat. I still had difficulties to land 3-point. I then gap sealed the elevator and not it works.



Any lead ballast in an aircraft seems to me like a poor idea. I am sure the CoG can be placed in a better place by other means.



Cheers,

Michel



--------

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416883#416883



 	
  

 

   

 

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jconnell(at)fmwildblue.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:07 am Post subject: Ballast in front for models 2 & 3 582 engines

Hi Charles,

  

 I have a Kitfox-II with a 582.  My battery (lawn mower type) is  located aft of the firewall on the pax side.  Two 6 gallon wing tanks with  the header tank behind the seat...

  

 Joe

  

 Time: 09:58:48 PM PST US

Subject: Ballast in front for  models 2 & 3 582 engines

From: Charles <cookflys(at)yahoo.com (cookflys(at)yahoo.com)>

Do any of  you mod 2 or 3s have any weight added to front?

I saw a model 2 and model 3  with weight added under the front engine mount. It

was ice tray with lead  melted in it. I have no idea how much it weighs but my

model 2 tail has  always seemed heavy in flight.

My battery is behind my seat. 



C  Cook



   [quote][b]

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:55 pm Post subject: Ballast in front for models 2 & 3 582 engines

I agree that C of G needs to be accurately measured .  My preference is to set up the plane according to the construction manual.  The only deviation to that is the set up for floats... Instead of measuring the step location I prefer to calculate the cg of the floats and then locate that cg directly below the cg of the plane sans wheels... That way the plane will balance properly for take off. 

Noel 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android                                                                                                                                                                                            From:                                                          Michael Laundy <mikelaundy(at)yahoo.co.uk>;                            

                                                              To:                                                          kitfox-list(at)matronics.com <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>;                                                                                                     

                                                              Subject:                                                          Re: Re: Ballast in front for models 2 & 3 582 engines                            

                                                              Sent:                                                          Tue, Jan 14, 2014 12:04:10 PM                            

                                                                                                                                            I suggest you have the aircraft accurately weighed so you can check the C of G is within limits. In my MK3 the battery is just aft of the engine bulkhead, the C of G is nicely within limits although I do find I run out of up elevator approaching the stall or when trying to do a 3 point landing.

Also on my mk 3 the angle of incidence on  the horizontal stabiliser  is adjustable, you may be able to adjust that on your aircraft to make it feel less tail heavy provided the C of G is within limits.

Mike Laundy

Mk3 Rotax 582  Cornwall UK

     On Tuesday, 14 January 2014, 9:08, Michel <michel(at)online.no> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		    --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Michel" <[url=javascript:return]michel(at)online.no[/url]>

In my humble opinion, when considering the CoG of a Kitfox, the most important thing is that, in case of  elevator failure, the aircraft  climbs at full throttle and descent at idle throttle.

Next, can you do a 3-points landing without difficulties? After the 582, I installed a Jabiru on my Kitfox 3 and that added weight forward. I couldn't get the tailwheel to touch the ground first when at stall speed. I then moved the battery from the bulkhead (standard place, I think, for the model 3) to, behind the seat. I still had difficulties to land 3-point. I then gap sealed the elevator and not it works.

Any lead ballast in an aircraft seems to me like a poor idea. I am sure the CoG can be placed in a better place by other means.

Cheers,

Michel

--------

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416883#416======================== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitp;  --> 

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  [quote][b]

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Jim Shumaker

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 106

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:33 pm Post subject: Ballast in front for models 2 & 3 582 engines

The feeling of being tail heavy does not mean anything if your CG is not correct.  The trim speed on the model 3 is set with the horizontal stabilator position.  If the CG is within the envelope then the Stabilator incidence can be set for pitch trim at cruise.  When that is set then you may feel the plane become more tail heavy when you add a passenger....that is it will fly hands off at a slower speed with two in the plane than with one....depending on the weight distribution of the passenger.  I have found that small passengers with cushions behind them do not change the trim much.  Heavy passengers generally make the plane fly a little slower with the CG slightly further aft.  

All that being said, it is better to move the battery forward than  to add weight.

Jim Shumaker

Model 3  1200 hours

Rotax 912ul  (nose heavy)



  From: Mike Chaney <poasttown(at)yahoo.com>

 To: "kitfox-list(at)matronics.com" <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 6:08 AM

 Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Ballast in  front for models 2 & 3 582 engines

  

 

Michel

When I had a 582 attached to the front of my Mod. IV I added some weight.  I put lead shot in a two inch PVC pipe and then glued two end caps to contain the shot.  I then attached the pipe to the cabin side of the firewall.

On a side note.  From what I hear about melting lead you need to be careful about the fumes produced from the melting process.  

Mike

1996 Kitfox IV/Jabiru

 

 

     On Tuesday, January 14, 2014 4:12 AM, Michael Laundy <mikelaundy(at)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

  

  I suggest you have the aircraft accurately weighed so you can check the C of G is within limits. In my MK3 the battery is just aft of the engine bulkhead, the C of G is nicely within limits although I do find I run out of up elevator approaching  the stall or when trying to do a 3 point landing.

Also on my mk 3 the angle of incidence on the horizontal stabiliser  is adjustable, you may be able to adjust that on your aircraft to make it feel less tail heavy provided the C of G is within limits.

Mike Laundy

Mk3 Rotax 582  Cornwall UK

 

 

     On Tuesday, 14 January 2014, 9:08, Michel <michel(at)online.no> wrote:

  

  	  Quote: 	
		    --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Michel" <michel(at)online.no (michel(at)online.no)>



In my humble opinion, when  considering the CoG of a Kitfox, the most important thing is that, in case of elevator failure, the aircraft  climbs at full throttle and descent at idle throttle.



Next, can you do a 3-points landing without difficulties? After the 582, I installed a Jabiru on my Kitfox 3 and that added weight forward. I couldn't get the tailwheel to touch the ground first when at stall speed. I then moved the battery from the bulkhead (standard place, I think, for the model 3) to, behind the seat. I still had difficulties to land 3-point. I then gap sealed the elevator and not it works.



Any lead ballast in an aircraft seems to me like a poor idea. I am sure the CoG can be placed in a better place by other means.



Cheers,

Michel



--------

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416883#416883



 	
  

 

   

 

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