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nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
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 Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:07 am Post subject: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
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I have followed this discussion with great interest and with an
increasing sense of Déjà vu.
When the issue of regulator/rectifier failures occur withing the Rotax
community, the standard fix seems to be to simply replace like with like
(at elevated Rotax pricing) and fly on until the next unit fails.
Up until about five years ago, nearly all modern Japanese motorcycles
used the same technology as that found on the Rotax 91x series engines,
permanent-magnet generators controlled by SCR rectifier/regulators. It
may come as some surprise that for an industry renowned for precision
and reliability, nearly all of these major motorcycle manufactures have
at some time, been plagued by problems with their SCR based
rectifier/regulators failing and burning out alternators and wiring,
cooking batteries and in extreme cases, squirting unregulated AC into
the wiring loom and blowing up ECUs. It was just such a failure that
"sparked" my interest 
Known as "Shunt Regulators" the SCR technology runs extremely hot and
requires more cooling air than modern styling and space allows.
The solution was a move towards MOSFET controlled regulators and the
numerous web-based one-make discussion groups were full of information
and advice on the reasons for failure, the benefits of the change and
practical advice on how to convert.
It was by trawling these groups that I was able to build up a good
understanding of how these R/Rs worked, what was causing the problem and
what the potential solution might be. I compiled what I considered to be
the best informed snippets of information into the attached document.
The first half gives an overview of a typical design of an SCR
Rectifier/Regulator for use on a permanent-magnet generating system and
the second half discussed the relative merrits of SCR versus MOSFET.
It would be interesting to know which technology the the after-market
Schicker and Silent-Hektic R/Rs use.
Nigel
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houlihan(at)blueyonder.co
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:33 am Post subject: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
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Hi David.
One thing to bear in mind is that there are, as I understand it, several modes of failure of the Ducatti unit the most benign being that it just stops charging the battery and feeding the services.
This is as you describe and as I also suffered ( why does this happen mid channel?) but I believe it can fail and possibly allow high voltage DC or AC onto the bus giving your expensive radio and other clever stuff a real hard time !
In the UK there is very little difference in cost between the Schicke and the Ducatti they are very similar in size and the wiring is only slightly changed , one wire not connected, and the generator fail light has to become an LED.
Tim
On 21 January 2014 19:13, David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:
[quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
Nigel, Fascinating and impressively erudite. You have totally convinced me that the way all new builders should go is with a Mofset bit of kit. However my personal solution is to take the odd Ducatti at sale price off anyone not planning to fit them and fly with a spare! In 1000hrs I have had one failure. That was inconveniently 1/3 way between Holland and Clacton, but there was enough juice in the battery to get me all the way home with a bit of thoughtful systems management. I currently fly with Rowland's spurned new Ducatti in my spares department under pax seat, but am prepared to offer a modest price for another unwanted Ducatti!
Regards, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:06:24 +0000
"nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)" <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: |
I have followed this discussion with great interest and with an increasing sense of Déjà vu.
When the issue of regulator/rectifier failures occur withing the Rotax community, the standard fix seems to be to simply replace like with like (at elevated Rotax pricing) and fly on until the next unit fails.
Up until about five years ago, nearly all modern Japanese motorcycles used the same technology as that found on the Rotax 91x series engines, permanent-magnet generators controlled by SCR rectifier/regulators. It may come as some surprise that for an industry renowned for precision and reliability, nearly all of these major motorcycle manufactures have at some time, been plagued by problems with their SCR based rectifier/regulators failing and burning out alternators and wiring, cooking batteries and in extreme cases, squirting unregulated AC into the wiring loom and blowing up ECUs. It was just such a failure that "sparked" my interest
Known as "Shunt Regulators" the SCR technology runs extremely hot and requires more cooling air than modern styling and space allows.
The solution was a move towards MOSFET controlled regulators and the numerous web-based one-make discussion groups were full of information and advice on the reasons for failure, the benefits of the change and practical advice on how to convert.
It was by trawling these groups that I was able to build up a good understanding of how these R/Rs worked, what was causing the problem and what the potential solution might be. I compiled what I considered to be the best informed snippets of information into the attached document.
The first half gives an overview of a typical design of an SCR Rectifier/Regulator for use on a permanent-magnet generating system and the second half discussed the relative merrits of SCR versus MOSFET.
It would be interesting to know which technology the the after-market Schicker and Silent-Hektic R/Rs use.
Nigel
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:49 am Post subject: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
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"allow high voltage" .... hopefully the battery would do it's best to soak it up (with the alternator's limited current generating capacity).
Cheers,
Pete
On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 2:31 PM, houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)> wrote:
[quote] Hi David.
One thing to bear in mind is that there are, as I understand it, several modes of failure of the Ducatti unit the most benign being that it just stops charging the battery and feeding the services.
This is as you describe and as I also suffered ( why does this happen mid channel?) but I believe it can fail and possibly allow high voltage DC or AC onto the bus giving your expensive radio and other clever stuff a real hard time !
In the UK there is very little difference in cost between the Schicke and the Ducatti they are very similar in size and the wiring is only slightly changed , one wire not connected, and the generator fail light has to become an LED.
Tim
On 21 January 2014 19:13, David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
Nigel, Fascinating and impressively erudite. You have totally convinced me that the way all new builders should go is with a Mofset bit of kit. However my personal solution is to take the odd Ducatti at sale price off anyone not planning to fit them and fly with a spare! In 1000hrs I have had one failure. That was inconveniently 1/3 way between Holland and Clacton, but there was enough juice in the battery to get me all the way home with a bit of thoughtful systems management. I currently fly with Rowland's spurned new Ducatti in my spares department under pax seat, but am prepared to offer a modest price for another unwanted Ducatti!
Regards, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:06:24 +0000
"nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)" <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: |
I have followed this discussion with great interest and with an increasing sense of Déjà vu.
When the issue of regulator/rectifier failures occur withing the Rotax community, the standard fix seems to be to simply replace like with like (at elevated Rotax pricing) and fly on until the next unit fails.
Up until about five years ago, nearly all modern Japanese motorcycles used the same technology as that found on the Rotax 91x series engines, permanent-magnet generators controlled by SCR rectifier/regulators. It may come as some surprise that for an industry renowned for precision and reliability, nearly all of these major motorcycle manufactures have at some time, been plagued by problems with their SCR based rectifier/regulators failing and burning out alternators and wiring, cooking batteries and in extreme cases, squirting unregulated AC into the wiring loom and blowing up ECUs. It was just such a failure that "sparked" my interest
Known as "Shunt Regulators" the SCR technology runs extremely hot and requires more cooling air than modern styling and space allows.
The solution was a move towards MOSFET controlled regulators and the numerous web-based one-make discussion groups were full of information and advice on the reasons for failure, the benefits of the change and practical advice on how to convert.
It was by trawling these groups that I was able to build up a good understanding of how these R/Rs worked, what was causing the problem and what the potential solution might be. I compiled what I considered to be the best informed snippets of information into the attached document.
The first half gives an overview of a typical design of an SCR Rectifier/Regulator for use on a permanent-magnet generating system and the second half discussed the relative merrits of SCR versus MOSFET.
It would be interesting to know which technology the the after-market Schicker and Silent-Hektic R/Rs use.
Nigel
|
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target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
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http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
le, List Admin.
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====================================
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arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
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jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:23 pm Post subject: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
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The attached document describes shunt regulators - they would be most
likely to fail with an overvoltage result (failing shunt).
The Ducati is not a shunt regulator - just a diode bridge with
controlled time-outs for regulation - the most likely failing mode is
undervoltage (open bridge branch).
I believe Schicke and SH are the same, with possibly more robust
implementation and better cooling.
The possible advantage of replacing thyristors with MOSFETS is
potentially lower heat because of lower voltage drop. But unless you do
something clever you need 2 MOSFETs for each thyristor and an
interesting way to switch them.
Regards,
Jan de Jong
On 1/21/2014 7:06 PM, nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk wrote:
| Quote: |
I have followed this discussion with great interest and with an
increasing sense of Déjà vu.
When the issue of regulator/rectifier failures occur withing the Rotax
community, the standard fix seems to be to simply replace like with
like (at elevated Rotax pricing) and fly on until the next unit fails.
Up until about five years ago, nearly all modern Japanese motorcycles
used the same technology as that found on the Rotax 91x series
engines, permanent-magnet generators controlled by SCR
rectifier/regulators. It may come as some surprise that for an
industry renowned for precision and reliability, nearly all of these
major motorcycle manufactures have at some time, been plagued by
problems with their SCR based rectifier/regulators failing and burning
out alternators and wiring, cooking batteries and in extreme cases,
squirting unregulated AC into the wiring loom and blowing up ECUs. It
was just such a failure that "sparked" my interest
Known as "Shunt Regulators" the SCR technology runs extremely hot and
requires more cooling air than modern styling and space allows.
The solution was a move towards MOSFET controlled regulators and the
numerous web-based one-make discussion groups were full of information
and advice on the reasons for failure, the benefits of the change and
practical advice on how to convert.
It was by trawling these groups that I was able to build up a good
understanding of how these R/Rs worked, what was causing the problem
and what the potential solution might be. I compiled what I considered
to be the best informed snippets of information into the attached
document.
The first half gives an overview of a typical design of an SCR
Rectifier/Regulator for use on a permanent-magnet generating system
and the second half discussed the relative merrits of SCR versus MOSFET.
It would be interesting to know which technology the the after-market
Schicker and Silent-Hektic R/Rs use.
Nigel
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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houlihan(at)blueyonder.co
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:33 pm Post subject: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
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|
Hi Peter.
Batteries are expensive and overvolting does them no good at all
Tim
On 21 January 2014 19:49, Peter Zutrauen <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:
[quote]"allow high voltage" .... hopefully the battery would do it's best to soak it up (with the alternator's limited current generating capacity).
Cheers,
Pete
On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 2:31 PM, houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi David.
One thing to bear in mind is that there are, as I understand it, several modes of failure of the Ducatti unit the most benign being that it just stops charging the battery and feeding the services.
This is as you describe and as I also suffered ( why does this happen mid channel?) but I believe it can fail and possibly allow high voltage DC or AC onto the bus giving your expensive radio and other clever stuff a real hard time !
In the UK there is very little difference in cost between the Schicke and the Ducatti they are very similar in size and the wiring is only slightly changed , one wire not connected, and the generator fail light has to become an LED.
Tim
On 21 January 2014 19:13, David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
Nigel, Fascinating and impressively erudite. You have totally convinced me that the way all new builders should go is with a Mofset bit of kit. However my personal solution is to take the odd Ducatti at sale price off anyone not planning to fit them and fly with a spare! In 1000hrs I have had one failure. That was inconveniently 1/3 way between Holland and Clacton, but there was enough juice in the battery to get me all the way home with a bit of thoughtful systems management. I currently fly with Rowland's spurned new Ducatti in my spares department under pax seat, but am prepared to offer a modest price for another unwanted Ducatti!
Regards, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:06:24 +0000
"nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)" <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: |
I have followed this discussion with great interest and with an increasing sense of Déjà vu.
When the issue of regulator/rectifier failures occur withing the Rotax community, the standard fix seems to be to simply replace like with like (at elevated Rotax pricing) and fly on until the next unit fails.
Up until about five years ago, nearly all modern Japanese motorcycles used the same technology as that found on the Rotax 91x series engines, permanent-magnet generators controlled by SCR rectifier/regulators. It may come as some surprise that for an industry renowned for precision and reliability, nearly all of these major motorcycle manufactures have at some time, been plagued by problems with their SCR based rectifier/regulators failing and burning out alternators and wiring, cooking batteries and in extreme cases, squirting unregulated AC into the wiring loom and blowing up ECUs. It was just such a failure that "sparked" my interest
Known as "Shunt Regulators" the SCR technology runs extremely hot and requires more cooling air than modern styling and space allows.
The solution was a move towards MOSFET controlled regulators and the numerous web-based one-make discussion groups were full of information and advice on the reasons for failure, the benefits of the change and practical advice on how to convert.
It was by trawling these groups that I was able to build up a good understanding of how these R/Rs worked, what was causing the problem and what the potential solution might be. I compiled what I considered to be the best informed snippets of information into the attached document.
The first half gives an overview of a typical design of an SCR Rectifier/Regulator for use on a permanent-magnet generating system and the second half discussed the relative merrits of SCR versus MOSFET.
It would be interesting to know which technology the the after-market Schicker and Silent-Hektic R/Rs use.
Nigel
|
====================================
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
====================================
http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:22 pm Post subject: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
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Agreed..... But better the battery before the radios  when that terrible regulator design goes south. I am amazed it got certified....truly amazed.
On Jan 21, 2014, at 3:33 PM, houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)> wrote:
[quote]Hi Peter.
Batteries are expensive and overvolting does them no good at all
Tim
On 21 January 2014 19:49, Peter Zutrauen <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | "allow high voltage" .... hopefully the battery would do it's best to soak it up (with the alternator's limited current generating capacity).
Cheers,
Pete
On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 2:31 PM, houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi David.
One thing to bear in mind is that there are, as I understand it, several modes of failure of the Ducatti unit the most benign being that it just stops charging the battery and feeding the services.
This is as you describe and as I also suffered ( why does this happen mid channel?) but I believe it can fail and possibly allow high voltage DC or AC onto the bus giving your expensive radio and other clever stuff a real hard time !
In the UK there is very little difference in cost between the Schicke and the Ducatti they are very similar in size and the wiring is only slightly changed , one wire not connected, and the generator fail light has to become an LED.
Tim
On 21 January 2014 19:13, David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
Nigel, Fascinating and impressively erudite. You have totally convinced me that the way all new builders should go is with a Mofset bit of kit. However my personal solution is to take the odd Ducatti at sale price off anyone not planning to fit them and fly with a spare! In 1000hrs I have had one failure. That was inconveniently 1/3 way between Holland and Clacton, but there was enough juice in the battery to get me all the way home with a bit of thoughtful systems management. I currently fly with Rowland's spurned new Ducatti in my spares department under pax seat, but am prepared to offer a modest price for another unwanted Ducatti!
Regards, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:06:24 +0000
"nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)" <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: |
I have followed this discussion with great interest and with an increasing sense of Déjà vu.
When the issue of regulator/rectifier failures occur withing the Rotax community, the standard fix seems to be to simply replace like with like (at elevated Rotax pricing) and fly on until the next unit fails.
Up until about five years ago, nearly all modern Japanese motorcycles used the same technology as that found on the Rotax 91x series engines, permanent-magnet generators controlled by SCR rectifier/regulators. It may come as some surprise that for an industry renowned for precision and reliability, nearly all of these major motorcycle manufactures have at some time, been plagued by problems with their SCR based rectifier/regulators failing and burning out alternators and wiring, cooking batteries and in extreme cases, squirting unregulated AC into the wiring loom and blowing up ECUs. It was just such a failure that "sparked" my interest
Known as "Shunt Regulators" the SCR technology runs extremely hot and requires more cooling air than modern styling and space allows.
The solution was a move towards MOSFET controlled regulators and the numerous web-based one-make discussion groups were full of information and advice on the reasons for failure, the benefits of the change and practical advice on how to convert.
It was by trawling these groups that I was able to build up a good understanding of how these R/Rs worked, what was causing the problem and what the potential solution might be. I compiled what I considered to be the best informed snippets of information into the attached document.
The first half gives an overview of a typical design of an SCR Rectifier/Regulator for use on a permanent-magnet generating system and the second half discussed the relative merrits of SCR versus MOSFET.
It would be interesting to know which technology the the after-market Schicker and Silent-Hektic R/Rs use.
Nigel
|
====================================
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
====================================
http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
le, List Admin.
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====================================
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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:09 pm Post subject: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
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David,
I am kinda, sorta with you on this. Mine failed the same way after 10 years, however I do have an OPV system that disconnects the alternator from the system just in case.
I installed a GR6 once my original regulator died and went to heaven and so far so good.
Paul
On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 4:15 PM, David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:
[quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
Tim, I absolutely accept that it is not ideal and could cause more serious problems than simple lack of charge, but one benign failure in 12 years of flying is pretty close to acceptable reliability for me, and I enjoy gliding anyway!
Happy Landings, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:31:56 +0000
houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi David.
One thing to bear in mind is that there are, as I understand it, several
modes of failure of the Ducatti unit the most benign being that it just
stops charging the battery and feeding the services.
This is as you describe and as I also suffered ( why does this happen mid
channel?) but I believe it can fail and possibly allow high voltage DC or
AC onto the bus giving your expensive radio and other clever stuff a real
hard time !
In the UK there is very little difference in cost between the Schicke and
the Ducatti they are very similar in size and the wiring is only slightly
changed , one wire not connected, and the generator fail light has to
become an LED.
Tim
On 21 January 2014 19:13, David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
Nigel, Fascinating and impressively erudite. You have totally convinced me
that the way all new builders should go is with a Mofset bit of kit.
However my personal solution is to take the odd Ducatti at sale price off
anyone not planning to fit them and fly with a spare! In 1000hrs I have had
one failure. That was inconveniently 1/3 way between Holland and Clacton,
but there was enough juice in the battery to get me all the way home with a
bit of thoughtful systems management. I currently fly with Rowland's
spurned new Ducatti in my spares department under pax seat, but am prepared
to offer a modest price for another unwanted Ducatti!
Regards, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:06:24 +0000
"nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)" <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: |
I have followed this discussion with great interest and with an
increasing sense of Déjà vu.
When the issue of regulator/rectifier failures occur withing the Rotax
community, the standard fix seems to be to simply replace like with like
(at elevated Rotax pricing) and fly on until the next unit fails.
Up until about five years ago, nearly all modern Japanese motorcycles
used the same technology as that found on the Rotax 91x series engines,
permanent-magnet generators controlled by SCR rectifier/regulators. It may
come as some surprise that for an industry renowned for precision and
reliability, nearly all of these major motorcycle manufactures have at some
time, been plagued by problems with their SCR based rectifier/regulators
failing and burning out alternators and wiring, cooking batteries and in
extreme cases, squirting unregulated AC into the wiring loom and blowing up
ECUs. It was just such a failure that "sparked" my interest
Known as "Shunt Regulators" the SCR technology runs extremely hot and
requires more cooling air than modern styling and space allows.
The solution was a move towards MOSFET controlled regulators and the
numerous web-based one-make discussion groups were full of information and
advice on the reasons for failure, the benefits of the change and practical
advice on how to convert.
It was by trawling these groups that I was able to build up a good
understanding of how these R/Rs worked, what was causing the problem and
what the potential solution might be. I compiled what I considered to be
the best informed snippets of information into the attached document.
The first half gives an overview of a typical design of an SCR
Rectifier/Regulator for use on a permanent-magnet generating system and the
second half discussed the relative merrits of SCR versus MOSFET.
It would be interesting to know which technology the the after-market
Schicker and Silent-Hektic R/Rs use.
Nigel
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gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:55 pm Post subject: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
|
|
What a great idea. Way to stretch the power, and keep it running cooler. I have thought of splitting the Rotax generator in two, and using the higher voltages to act as two independant generators. I don't think there would be enough overhead voltage at lower speeds though.
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Zutrauen
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 10:38 AM
To: europa-list
Subject: Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective
Just as an aside......
Fwiw for my other homebuilt I added a custom tiny alternator (actually a high-current model airplane 3-phase brushless permanent magnet "outrunner" motor) I decided to not fully load the alternator constantly with these wasteful regulators (in an effort to save power as well as longevity) but instead let the rectified bus voltage climb to whatever the alternator will produce (~27V at cruise RPM). I then use a high-frequency switching convertor (a potted single module) to convert down to 13.4V for charging the battery. The convertor comes on line at an input voltage > 17V. Seems to work well so far.
Cheers,
Pete
A239
[quote][b]
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gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:36 am Post subject: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
|
|
Pete-
Is this approach noisy at all? Can you hear any high-pitched whine in the audio system? Any insight into the switching converter (such as the power it can handle, where it is available, cost, etc). Either way, this could come in handy too, possibly for backup of the Ducati during flight. After all, in the 914, the pumps need to keep spinning and the time electrical problems crop up always seems to be at the most in-opportune time, like between land masses  .
I will be giving up the pad which would have been for the second alternator, in order to place the oil regulator for the constant-speed prop. The front alternator alternative would require cowl mods, so it might be an easy two-wire switch-in solution for at least or just the pump, if our infamous regulator fails (and assuming open diodes and not shorted scr's is the normal failure mode).
Backup also requires a reliable stator. Has anyone ever had the charging coils go out?
Regards,
Greg
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Zutrauen
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 10:38 AM
To: europa-list
Subject: Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective
Just as an aside......
Fwiw for my other homebuilt I added a custom tiny alternator (actually a high-current model airplane 3-phase brushless permanent magnet "outrunner" motor) I decided to not fully load the alternator constantly with these wasteful regulators (in an effort to save power as well as longevity) but instead let the rectified bus voltage climb to whatever the alternator will produce (~27V at cruise RPM). I then use a high-frequency switching convertor (a potted single module) to convert down to 13.4V for charging the battery. The convertor comes on line at an input voltage > 17V. Seems to work well so far.
Cheers,
Pete
A239
On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 1:06 PM, nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk) <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)> wrote:
[quote]
I have followed this discussion with great interest and with an increasing sense of Déj± vu.
When the issue of regulator/rectifier failures occur withing the Rotax community, the standard fix seems to be to simply replace like with like (at elevated Rotax pricing) and fly on until the next unit fails.
Up until about five years ago, nearly all modern Japanese motorcycles used the same technology as that found on the Rotax 91x series engines, permanent-magnet generators controlled by SCR rectifier/regulators. It may come as some surprise that for an industry renowned for precision and reliability, nearly all of these major motorcycle manufactures have at some time, been plagued by problems with their SCR based rectifier/regulators failing and burning out alternators and wiring, cooking batteries and in extreme cases, squirting unregulated AC into the wiring loom and blowing up ECUs. It was just such a failure that "sparked" my interest
Known as "Shunt Regulators" the SCR technology runs extremely hot and requires more cooling air than modern styling and space allows.
The solution was a move towards MOSFET controlled regulators and the numerous web-based one-make discussion groups were full of information and advice on the reasons for failure, the benefits of the change and practical advice on how to convert.
It was by trawling these groups that I was able to build up a good understanding of how these R/Rs worked, what was causing the problem and what the potential solution might be. I compiled what I considered to be the best informed snippets of information into the attached document.
The first half gives an overview of a typical design of an SCR Rectifier/Regulator for use on a permanent-magnet generating system and the second half discussed the relative merrits of SCR versus MOSFET.
It would be interesting to know which technology the the after-market Schicker and Silent-Hektic R/Rs use.
Nigel
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:19 pm Post subject: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
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|
Hi Paul,
Hope the jumping is going well, and the flying. You a bit cold over there? I am in LA, having spent 4 days here going batty since my LAX-JFK-LAX legs were cancelled due to the weather and light passenger loads. So, boring. Can you tell me with this rectifier topic, would you replace the original rectifier with a GR6 straight from the get go? When they fail, does your alternator just fail to charge, or can it overcharge? Is that why you have that OPV? Circuit?
Any help to get to the bottom of this electrical stuff appreciated. My build is going ok at the moment. I have wings on, and am doing Fred Kleins fairings at the moment, the P51 ones. They look good but gee there is a lot of work to connect them, nearly as much as building them from scratch I would think. Anyway, 60% done. Have mated the aileron quick connect pivot bolts and bonded the tufnol pads on them, so now to insy
Tall them and see how I went. I'm confident it should be good because of the bolt work. Painting the interior before top goes on. Easy, light, and simply quick progress, plus easy to modify, touch up as time goes on. Top goes on soon, with Kingsleys help. Then on its wheels and I then have to turn it over somehow to do some gear fairing work. That will be a challenge. I am thinking of making carbon floor inserts, that come out like a tray, and just wash out. Easy to make. Would that be a good idea do you think?
On a work topic, I was talking about you to a GE person, and I realised I don't know what you do, so, can I ask?
Fly safe, jump safe.
TR
Sent from my iPad
On 21 Jan 2014, at 5:07 pm, Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com (paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]David,
I am kinda, sorta with you on this. Mine failed the same way after 10 years, however I do have an OPV system that disconnects the alternator from the system just in case.
I installed a GR6 once my original regulator died and went to heaven and so far so good.
Paul
On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 4:15 PM, David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
Tim, I absolutely accept that it is not ideal and could cause more serious problems than simple lack of charge, but one benign failure in 12 years of flying is pretty close to acceptable reliability for me, and I enjoy gliding anyway!
Happy Landings, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:31:56 +0000
houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi David.
One thing to bear in mind is that there are, as I understand it, several
modes of failure of the Ducatti unit the most benign being that it just
stops charging the battery and feeding the services.
This is as you describe and as I also suffered ( why does this happen mid
channel?) but I believe it can fail and possibly allow high voltage DC or
AC onto the bus giving your expensive radio and other clever stuff a real
hard time !
In the UK there is very little difference in cost between the Schicke and
the Ducatti they are very similar in size and the wiring is only slightly
changed , one wire not connected, and the generator fail light has to
become an LED.
Tim
On 21 January 2014 19:13, David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
Nigel, Fascinating and impressively erudite. You have totally convinced me
that the way all new builders should go is with a Mofset bit of kit.
However my personal solution is to take the odd Ducatti at sale price off
anyone not planning to fit them and fly with a spare! In 1000hrs I have had
one failure. That was inconveniently 1/3 way between Holland and Clacton,
but there was enough juice in the battery to get me all the way home with a
bit of thoughtful systems management. I currently fly with Rowland's
spurned new Ducatti in my spares department under pax seat, but am prepared
to offer a modest price for another unwanted Ducatti!
Regards, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:06:24 +0000
"nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)" <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: |
I have followed this discussion with great interest and with an
increasing sense of Déjà vu.
When the issue of regulator/rectifier failures occur withing the Rotax
community, the standard fix seems to be to simply replace like with like
(at elevated Rotax pricing) and fly on until the next unit fails.
Up until about five years ago, nearly all modern Japanese motorcycles
used the same technology as that found on the Rotax 91x series engines,
permanent-magnet generators controlled by SCR rectifier/regulators. It may
come as some surprise that for an industry renowned for precision and
reliability, nearly all of these major motorcycle manufactures have at some
time, been plagued by problems with their SCR based rectifier/regulators
failing and burning out alternators and wiring, cooking batteries and in
extreme cases, squirting unregulated AC into the wiring loom and blowing up
ECUs. It was just such a failure that "sparked" my interest
Known as "Shunt Regulators" the SCR technology runs extremely hot and
requires more cooling air than modern styling and space allows.
The solution was a move towards MOSFET controlled regulators and the
numerous web-based one-make discussion groups were full of information and
advice on the reasons for failure, the benefits of the change and practical
advice on how to convert.
It was by trawling these groups that I was able to build up a good
understanding of how these R/Rs worked, what was causing the problem and
what the potential solution might be. I compiled what I considered to be
the best informed snippets of information into the attached document.
The first half gives an overview of a typical design of an SCR
Rectifier/Regulator for use on a permanent-magnet generating system and the
second half discussed the relative merrits of SCR versus MOSFET.
It would be interesting to know which technology the the after-market
Schicker and Silent-Hektic R/Rs use.
Nigel
|
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Fred Klein
Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:21 pm Post subject: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
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On Jan 23, 2014, at 12:18 PM, Tony Renshaw wrote:
| Quote: | | have wings on, and am doing Fred Kleins fairings at the moment, the P51 ones. They look good but gee there is a lot of work to connect them, nearly as much as building them from scratch I would think. |
...in your dreams Tony...
)
Fred
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