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Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

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gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:54 pm Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

>Perhaps in the situation above, it  would be prudent for a 914 builder (914 can draw 11 amps on its own with  both pumps running) to consider a belt driven ??

 >alternator of 40 amps, and simply redo the  cowl front and keep the Rotax as a backup in case of belt  failure.



  

 Bud,  or those that know,

 At  some point, or future avionics upgrade, my ship will likely need the extra  Watts.

 Would  you care to supply a 'teaser' on the making of the cowl mod? I am still  waiting for my FF package, so don't yet have a handle on how it integrates with  the prop flange, but does the front of the cowl terminate just behind the prop  flange, on the smaller-radius drive tube? Are the belt-driven alternator  components in front of the cowl then, requiring the cowl front face to  be opened up and added to? Is this considered an extensive  change?

 Regards,

 Greg

 



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud  Yerly

Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 9:13 PM

To:  europa-list

Subject: RE: Re: Ducati  rectifier/regulators



   

  

 .....

 If you are an amp zealot, but still want an aux fuel  pump, pitot heat, 100 watt landing light, strobes, heavy draw radio  (Garmin 430 type), Aux Radio, Mode S transponder continuously working,  autopilot, stereo high quality music system, external power plugs for  our phones, I-pads and inflight video system,  the Rotax charging  system is not going to hack it.

  

 Perhaps in the situation above, it would be prudent for a 914  builder (914 can draw 11 amps on its own with both pumps running) to  consider a belt driven alternator of 40 amps, and simply redo the cowl front and  keep the Rotax as a backup in case of belt failure.

  

 If you build a 912S airplane with all LED lighting, Garmin 255  or Becker Com, Simple digital Transponder, Aux Boost, and maybe an autopilot for  cruise only and a paper map, then the Rotax / Ducati should be fine.   The GR6 or SH may be better and longer lasting to boot.  In my  opinion the Rotax system can't put out much more than 15 amps or so and as  the current increases, the voltage output starts to diminish (at least it does  in my poor old airplane) .

  

 Just my thoughts.

 Bud

 

 



 



 > Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:40:25 +0100

 	  Quote: 	
		   From:  jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re:  Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators

 

 --> Europa-List  message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>

 

 Re  two-phase bridge rectifier/regulator.

 The 2 thyristors in the rectifier  bridge do not short the AC input or 

 "dump" anything.

 On the  contrary, they disconnect the DC output from the AC input when 

 the  output voltage threatens to exceed the set voltage.

 All output current  passes through one branch of one diode and one 

 thyristor in series half  the time and through the other identical branch 

 also half the  time.

 Heat development is proportional to the output current and the  voltage 

 drop across a branch.

 Voltage drops increase somewhat  with current, so heat development 

 increases more than linearly with  output current.

 In the Ducati device the diode is reportedly a MR2510  pill (typically 

 0.75V at 10A, 0.8V at 20A), the thyristor can be a  2N6504 (typically 

 1.1V at 10A, 1.3V at 20A).

 So at 10A the two  branches of the bridge are each expected to generate 

 0.5 x (7.5 + 11) =  9.25W (total 18.5W) of heat.

 And at 20A the two branches of the bridge  are each expected to generate 

 0.5 x (16 + 26) = 21W (total 42W) of  heat.

 

 (

 a failure mode for the Ducati device is  reportedly the loss of 

 continuity of a diode pill attachment through  thermal cycling; fitting 

 external parallel diodes has been proposed as  a solution; replacing the 

 whole device seems more sensible

  )

 

 Cheers,

 Jan de Jong

  

&g=======================
	


&g=======

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

  


	




[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:50 am Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

Greg, there is a bit of a philosophical issue here! Do you 

want to include every possible bit of kit and duplicate 

all important functions with considerable addition to your 

overall weight, or do you want to build to the lowest 

possible weight whilst including all vital functions. 

Flying an overweight plane carries its own performance and 

safety penalties which can possibly outweigh the marginal 

safety gains of the extra kit. When it was possible to 

find plane weights on the Europa website (hopefully soon 

to be possible again!), it was noticeable that the weights 

of 914 Europas varied from under 800lbs to well over 

900lbs if my memory serves. That of course equates to a 

load capacity for passengers & fuel etc of between 470+ 

lbs (fairly comfortable) and perhaps 350 lbs.( very thin 

passengers or no fuel!). Admittedly in the US you get away 

with more than 1270 MAUW, but only at the expense of 

eroding performance and safety margins.

       For what it is worth my standard 914 alternator 

(&Ducatti regulator) with Single Odyssey battery (16 

amp/hrs)  has for 1000+ hrs coped perfectly well with 

wobbly prop, EFIS, autopilot, GPS, twin Nav Com, 

transponder, EMS and both electric fuel pumps (although of 

course you only normally have one of them on as each is 

capable of supplying more than full power fuel flow)

       I would personally follow the build as light as 

possble approach and have that little bit of extra 

power/weight ratio to help you in the dodgy situations you 

may possibly unintentionally find yourself in some time 

down the line.

     Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ (833 lbs)



On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:54:17 -0800

  "Greg Fuchs " <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  >Perhaps in the situation above, it would be prudent for a 

>914 builder (914

 can draw 11 amps on its own with both pumps running) to 

consider a belt

 driven ??

>alternator of 40 amps, and simply redo the cowl front and 

>keep the Rotax as

 a backup in case of belt failure.

 

 Bud, or those that know,

 At some point, or future avionics upgrade, my ship will 

likely need the

 extra Watts.

 Would you care to supply a 'teaser' on the making of the 

cowl mod? I am

 still waiting for my FF package, so don't yet have a 

handle on how it

 integrates with the prop flange, but does the front of 

the cowl terminate

 just behind the prop flange, on the smaller-radius drive 

tube? Are the

 belt-driven alternator components in front of the cowl 

then, requiring the

 cowl front face to be opened up and added to? Is this 

considered an

 extensive change?

 Regards,

 Greg

 

  _____  

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com

 [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On 

Behalf Of Bud Yerly

 Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 9:13 PM

 To: europa-list

 Subject: RE: Re: Ducati 

rectifier/regulators

 

 

 

 .....

 If you are an amp zealot, but still want an aux fuel 

pump, pitot heat, 100

 watt landing light, strobes, heavy draw radio (Garmin 

430 type), Aux Radio,

 Mode S transponder continuously working, autopilot, 

stereo high quality

 music system, external power plugs for our phones, 

I-pads and inflight video

 system,  the Rotax charging system is not going to hack 

it.

 

 Perhaps in the situation above, it would be prudent for 

a 914 builder (914

 can draw 11 amps on its own with both pumps running) to 

consider a belt

 driven alternator of 40 amps, and simply redo the cowl 

front and keep the

 Rotax as a backup in case of belt failure.

 

 If you build a 912S airplane with all LED lighting, 

Garmin 255 or Becker

 Com, Simple digital Transponder, Aux Boost, and maybe an 

autopilot for

 cruise only and a paper map, then the Rotax / Ducati 

should be fine.  The

 GR6 or SH may be better and longer lasting to boot.  In 

my opinion the Rotax

 system can't put out much more than 15 amps or so and as 

the current

 increases, the voltage output starts to diminish (at 

least it does in my

 poor old airplane) .

 

 Just my thoughts.

 Bud

 

 

 

 

 

> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:40:25 +0100

> From: jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl

> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

> Subject: Re: Re: Ducati 

>rectifier/regulators

> 

> 

><jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>

> 

> Re two-phase bridge rectifier/regulator.

> The 2 thyristors in the rectifier bridge do not short 

>the AC input or 

> "dump" anything.

> On the contrary, they disconnect the DC output from the 

>AC input when 

> the output voltage threatens to exceed the set voltage.

> All output current passes through one branch of one 

>diode and one 

> thyristor in series half the time and through the other 

>identical branch 

> also half the time.

> Heat development is proportional to the output current 

>and the voltage 

> drop across a branch.

> Voltage drops increase somewhat with current, so heat 

>development 

> increases more than linearly with output current.

> In the Ducati device the diode is reportedly a MR2510 

>pill (typically 

> 0.75V at 10A, 0.8V at 20A), the thyristor can be a 

>2N6504 (typically 

> 1.1V at 10A, 1.3V at 20A).

> So at 10A the two branches of the bridge are each 

>expected to generate 

> 0.5 x (7.5 + 11) = 9.25W (total 18.5W) of heat.

> And at 20A the two branches of the bridge are each 

>expected to generate 

> 0.5 x (16 + 26) = 21W (total 42W) of heat.

> 

> (

> a failure mode for the Ducati device is reportedly the 

>loss of 

> continuity of a diode pill attachment through thermal 

>cycling; fitting 

> external parallel diodes has been proposed as a 

>solution; replacing the 

> whole device seems more sensible

> )

> 

> Cheers,

> Jan de Jong

> 

 &g=======================

 &g=======

> 

> 

>

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:00 am Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

David,

I agree in principle, about keeping it light....not planning on doing an

extra alternator at the moment, just information gathering in advance for

when the ship has been airborn awhile. For example, in case I ever want to

be IFR-capable... 

Just keeping the options open. One can always place a small lightweight

alternator off the back of the crank as well without being too

jelly-bellied..some have done it per the forum.

Besides, in keeping it light now, I'll know what I'm missing later when it

tips the scales a bit more steeply...  

It looks like your Rotax power source goes a long ways to power your stuff,

and your ship is not gadget-poor by any means. That is good news.  

Thanks for the info.

Greg



--

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:42 am Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

Greg,



I echo David's thoughts on this. With the right design choices it is easy to stay well within the electrical capacity of the standard Rotax. Modern avionics, EFIS, LED position lights & strobes do not draw much current.  Attached is the load analysis I did for my aircraft in 2004.  I have not updated it since then but LED strobes, landing lights and low draw current contactors make it possible to have an even lower electrical load during cruise.



My 914 XS + Airmaster came in at 860 lb.  Over the years I have taken weight out by removing the vacuum instrument system and small tweaks in other area's but I sure wish I had paid much more attention to this during the build.



My favorite comment from Burt Rutan was, "If you are thinking of putting something on your airplane, first toss it in the air. If it doesn't stay there by itself then don't put it on."



Cheers, Paul

Load_Analyisis_Europa_N378PJ.XLS

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budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:02 pm Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

Greg,

I hope you don't get too carried away.  Every ounce you add, or increase to the frontal area, the more performance you loose.

 

To see an example of one of my cowl mods, look at  Jerry Hope's 914 with belt drive alternator. (www.customflightcreations.com click on accessories and tips.) I cut the front of the cowl off, and Jerry and I made a floppy glass cover then began the task of filling, smoothing, making a mirror image for the other side and continuously checking for clearance for the belt and pulley.  I made a mold of the front early on and it is rough.  I should have cleaned it up.  The belt drive alternator really does deliver the amps.



Note in the photo, you can see the alternator is right up against the intake opening.  It also extends the cowl forward about 1/8-1/4 inch because of the pulley.

 

I still believe my Europa simple VFR cruiser is the best idea.

All LEDs, (including the feeble Kuntzelman landing light at .6 amp), no pitot heat, all EFIS and light draw radio/transponder, keeps my amps in check.  Even with all my toys running, I do not draw over 15 amps until I key the mic button.

 

If I do go on to do a light IFR (health permitting) I'll add a Garming Nav Com like the SL30, and purchase a simple pitot heat (like Angus Aviation/Dynon).  I'll add an Aux battery and an Alternator to the back of the gearbox to power the pitot heat and a proper landing light for night.  (Aveo has an LED unit, which is expensive, but bright.  I still would prefer an HID light, however check out the new 13000 Lumen flashlights by Trusfire.)



The aux battery and alternator will most likely be similar to the B&Cs small unit which will keep the aux battery charged but only have enough battery life for about 30 minutes at idle for the HID/or LED light and supply the pitot heat for just the time necessary to penetrate a thin deck.

 

Just the ramblings of an experimenter.

Regards,

Bud

 



From: gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:54:17 -0800



      >Perhaps in the situation above, it  would be prudent for a 914 builder (914 can draw 11 amps on its own with  both pumps running) to consider a belt driven ??

 >alternator of 40 amps, and simply redo the  cowl front and keep the Rotax as a backup in case of belt  failure.



  

 Bud,  or those that know,

 At  some point, or future avionics upgrade, my ship will likely need the extra  Watts.

 Would  you care to supply a 'teaser' on the making of the cowl mod? I am still  waiting for my FF package, so don't yet have a handle on how it integrates with  the prop flange, but does the front of the cowl terminate just behind the prop  flange, on the smaller-radius drive tube? Are the belt-driven alternator  components in front of the cowl then, requiring the cowl front face to  be opened up and added to? Is this considered an extensive  change?

 Regards,

 Greg

 



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud  Yerly

Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 9:13 PM

To:  europa-list

Subject: RE: Re: Ducati  rectifier/regulators



   

  

 .....

 If you are an amp zealot, but still want an aux fuel  pump, pitot heat, 100 watt landing light, strobes, heavy draw radio  (Garmin 430 type), Aux Radio, Mode S transponder continuously working,  autopilot, stereo high quality music system, external power plugs for  our phones, I-pads and inflight video system,  the Rotax charging  system is not going to hack it.

  

 Perhaps in the situation above, it would be prudent for a 914  builder (914 can draw 11 amps on its own with both pumps running) to  consider a belt driven alternator of 40 amps, and simply redo the cowl front and  keep the Rotax as a backup in case of belt failure.

  

 If you build a 912S airplane with all LED lighting, Garmin 255  or Becker Com, Simple digital Transponder, Aux Boost, and maybe an autopilot for  cruise only and a paper map, then the Rotax / Ducati should be fine.   The GR6 or SH may be better and longer lasting to boot.  In my  opinion the Rotax system can't put out much more than 15 amps or so and as  the current increases, the voltage output starts to diminish (at least it does  in my poor old airplane) .

  

 Just my thoughts.

 Bud

 

 



 



 > Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:40:25 +0100

 	  Quote: 	
		   From:  jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re:  Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators

 

 --> Europa-List  message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>

 

 Re  two-phase bridge rectifier/regulator.

 The 2 thyristors in the rectifier  bridge do not short the AC input or 

 "dump" anything.

 On the  contrary, they disconnect the DC output from the AC input when 

 the  output voltage threatens to exceed the set voltage.

 All output current  passes through one branch of one diode and one 

 thyristor in series half  the time and through the other identical branch 

 also half the  time.

 Heat development is proportional to the output current and the  voltage 

 drop across a branch.

 Voltage drops increase somewhat  with current, so heat development 

 increases more than linearly with  output current.

 In the Ducati device the diode is reportedly a MR2510  pill (typically 

 0.75V at 10A, 0.8V at 20A), the thyristor can be a  2N6504 (typically 

 1.1V at 10A, 1.3V at 20A).

 So at 10A the two  branches of the bridge are each expected to generate 

 0.5 x (7.5 + 11) =  9.25W (total 18.5W) of heat.

 And at 20A the two branches of the bridge  are each expected to generate 

 0.5 x (16 + 26) = 21W (total 42W) of  heat.

 

 (

 a failure mode for the Ducati device is  reportedly the loss of 

 continuity of a diode pill attachment through  thermal cycling; fitting 

 external parallel diodes has been proposed as  a solution; replacing the 

 whole device seems more sensible

  )

 

 Cheers,

 Jan de Jong

  

&g=======================
	


&g=======

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

  


	




[quote]


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[b]

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:21 pm Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

Hi Paul,



THANKS! Wow, that's quite a detailed load analysis. I can see why you needed

it. It seems that the available Mega-micro (heehee) Watts available from the

Rotax generator are being well used in most modes of flight.  I especially

like the slight rest it gets during cruise, ensuring it can top off the

batteries....and possibly lowering the chance of a failure during this phase

of flight. 



Looking at the spreadsheet, I can't help but wonder if there is a need (or

at least used to be..before the changes) for a slightly bigger battery

capacity to help handle the load when the plane isn't at high rpm?  Of

course, experience is what matters. If you can recall, what battery size is

working for you?



One side note: Over a decade ago, in order to save a few $$, I replaced the

normal extra-capacity battery on my car (they are quite a bit larger than

the normal size), with one that was smaller...and it kept leaving me

stranded during the winter when running the accessories like fan, electric

window heaters, etc.  Granted, I was running the car at idle for periods of

about a half hour, to try to keep warm. I replaced it back to the beefier

battery rather quickly, and all starting problems went away. Of course,

there is no penalty of bigger batteries in a ground-bound vehicle and only a

last resort in an airplane.    



Hmm.. some HAVE paid more attention to the weight during the build, and

still end up bloated.. 860 is not too bad, IMO.



I'll be trying to use lower power items, such as external LED lights and

EFIS. Since none of them pass Burt Rutans qualification of staying in the

air when tossed there, I will now be adding helium-balloon ballast to the

ship to compensate for it. 



Thanks again for the detail,

Greg  



--

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:56 pm Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

The lightest Mono I know of was less than 750lbs. A showroom finish must weigh 20 lbs

at least and adds nothing to performance.

Graham





        From: Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net>



Hmm.. some HAVE paid more attention to the weight during the build, and

still end up bloated.. 860 is not too bad, IMO.



I'll be trying to use lower power items, such as external LED lights and

EFIS. Since none of them pass Burt Rutans qualification of  staying in the

air when tossed there, I will now be adding helium-balloon ballast to the

ship to compensate for it. 



Thanks again for the detail,

Greg  



 

 

  

 [quote][b]

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:13 pm Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

Hi Bud,

 Time will tell about that getting carried away part,  hahaha.

 I  absolutely figured you had a mold for the cowl!

  

 I  looked in anticipation, but could not find the info on Jerry Hopes belt drive  alternator. Perhaps I am doing something wrong, but would certainly like to find  it.

  

 A  Garmin SL30 (maybe someday a 430 or 530) and an EFIS to show its output has  long been on my wish list, along with a HID landing light (lower power draw,  higher intensity light output).

 I  looked at a video on You|ube that was demo-ing that flashlight and must say WOW.  It has an amazing output. Imagine that one would work just great as a Europa  landing light. Might have to give the HID lights another thought.    

 Thanks  for the informative Ramblings,

 Greg

  

  

 



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud  Yerly

Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 9:01 PM

To:  europa-list

Subject: RE: Cowl mods for front belt driven  alternator

 

  .hmmessage P { 	PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } BODY.hmmessage { 	FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; FONT-SIZE: 12pt }   Greg,

I hope you don't get too carried away.  Every  ounce you add, or increase to the frontal area, the more performance you  loose.

 

To see an example of one of my cowl mods, look  at  Jerry Hope's 914 with belt drive alternator. (www.customflightcreations.com click  on accessories and tips.) I cut the front of the cowl off, and Jerry  and I made a floppy glass cover then began the task of filling, smoothing,  making a mirror image for the other side and continuously checking for clearance  for the belt and pulley.  I made a mold of the front early on and it is  rough.  I should have cleaned it up.  The belt drive alternator  really does deliver the amps.

 

Note in the photo, you can see the alternator is right up  against the intake opening.  It also extends the cowl forward about 1/8-1/4  inch because of the pulley.

 

I still believe my Europa simple VFR  cruiser is the best idea.

All LEDs, (including the feeble  Kuntzelman landing light at .6 amp), no pitot heat, all EFIS and light  draw radio/transponder, keeps my amps in check.  Even with all my toys  running, I do not draw over 15 amps until I key the mic  button.

 

If I do go on to do a light IFR (health permitting) I'll  add a Garming Nav Com like the SL30, and purchase a simple pitot heat (like  Angus Aviation/Dynon).  I'll add an Aux battery and an Alternator to the  back of the gearbox to power the pitot heat and a proper landing light for  night.  (Aveo has an LED unit, which is expensive, but bright.  I  still would prefer an HID light, however check out the new 13000 Lumen  flashlights by Trusfire.)

 

The aux battery and alternator will most likely be similar to  the B&Cs small unit which will keep the aux battery charged but only  have enough battery life for about 30 minutes at idle for the HID/or LED  light and supply the pitot heat for just the time necessary to penetrate a  thin deck.

  

 Just the ramblings of an experimenter.

 Regards,

 Bud

 



   From: gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:  Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

Date: Sat, 25 Jan  2014 13:54:17 -0800



  >Perhaps in the situation above, it  would be prudent for a 914 builder (914 can draw 11 amps on its own with  both pumps running) to consider a belt driven ??

 >alternator of 40 amps, and simply redo  the cowl front and keep the Rotax as a backup in case of belt  failure.



  

 Bud, or those that know,

 At  some point, or future avionics upgrade, my ship will likely need the extra  Watts.

 Would you care to supply a 'teaser' on the  making of the cowl mod? I am still waiting for my FF package, so don't yet  have a handle on how it integrates with the prop flange, but does the front of  the cowl terminate just behind the prop flange, on the smaller-radius drive  tube? Are the belt-driven alternator components in front of the cowl then,  requiring the cowl front face to be opened up and added to? Is  this considered an extensive change?

 Regards,

 Greg

 



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud  Yerly

Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 9:13 PM

To:  europa-list

Subject: RE: Re: Ducati  rectifier/regulators



   

  

 .....

 If you are an amp zealot, but still want an aux fuel  pump, pitot heat, 100 watt landing light, strobes, heavy draw radio  (Garmin 430 type), Aux Radio, Mode S transponder continuously working,  autopilot, stereo high quality music system, external power plugs for  our phones, I-pads and inflight video system,  the Rotax charging  system is not going to hack it.

  

 Perhaps in the situation above, it would be prudent for a 914  builder (914 can draw 11 amps on its own with both pumps running) to  consider a belt driven alternator of 40 amps, and simply redo the cowl front and  keep the Rotax as a backup in case of belt failure.

  

 If you build a 912S airplane with all LED lighting, Garmin 255  or Becker Com, Simple digital Transponder, Aux Boost, and maybe an autopilot for  cruise only and a paper map, then the Rotax / Ducati should be fine.   The GR6 or SH may be better and longer lasting to boot.  In my  opinion the Rotax system can't put out much more than 15 amps or so and as  the current increases, the voltage output starts to diminish (at least it does  in my poor old airplane) .

  

 Just my thoughts.

 Bud

 

 



 



 > Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:40:25 +0100

 	  Quote: 	
		   From:  jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re:  Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators

 

 --> Europa-List  message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>

 

 Re  two-phase bridge rectifier/regulator.

 The 2 thyristors in the rectifier  bridge do not short the AC input or 

 "dump" anything.

 On the  contrary, they disconnect the DC output from the AC input when 

 the  output voltage threatens to exceed the set voltage.

 All output current  passes through one branch of one diode and one 

 thyristor in series half  the time and through the other identical branch 

 also half the  time.

 Heat development is proportional to the output current and the  voltage 

 drop across a branch.

 Voltage drops increase somewhat  with current, so heat development 

 increases more than linearly with  output current.

 In the Ducati device the diode is reportedly a MR2510  pill (typically 

 0.75V at 10A, 0.8V at 20A), the thyristor can be a  2N6504 (typically 

 1.1V at 10A, 1.3V at 20A).

 So at 10A the two  branches of the bridge are each expected to generate 

 0.5 x (7.5 + 11) =  9.25W (total 18.5W) of heat.

 And at 20A the two branches of the bridge  are each expected to generate 

 0.5 x (16 + 26) = 21W (total 42W) of  heat.

 

 (

 a failure mode for the Ducati device is  reportedly the loss of 

 continuity of a diode pill attachment through  thermal cycling; fitting 

 external parallel diodes has been proposed as  a solution; replacing the 

 whole device seems more sensible

  )

 

 Cheers,

 Jan de Jong

  

&g=======================
	


&g=======

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

  


	




[quote]



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[b]

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:23 pm Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

Yes, I think I read somewhere (maybe here), that one  light mist coat and one full coat of paint should do it, and save some  weight.

   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM  SINGLETON

Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 1:53 PM

To:  europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Cowl mods for  front belt driven alternator

 The  lightest Mono I know of was less than 750lbs. A showroom finish must weigh 20  lbs

at least and adds nothing to performance.

Graham

     From: Greg  Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net>

Hmm.. some HAVE paid more  attention to the weight during the build, and

still end up bloated.. 860 is  not too bad, IMO.

I'll be trying to use lower power items, such as  external LED lights and

EFIS. Since none of them pass Burt Rutans  qualification of staying in the

air when tossed there, I will now be adding  helium-balloon ballast to the

ship to compensate for it. 

Thanks  again for the detail,

Greg  

[quote]

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[b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:40 am Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

Graham, Are you sure?   You usually are, but competition 

gliders are produced with amazing attention to their 

finish - gel coat rubbed down progressively to 2000 grit 

and then polished with hard wax. We share their laminar 

flow aerofoils which are said to be highly sensitive to 

surface imperfections.

   Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ (with gel coat finish!)



On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:53:13 +0000 (GMT)

  GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The lightest Mono I know of was less than 750lbs. A 

showroom finish must weigh 20 lbs

 at least and adds nothing to performance.

 Graham

 

 

 

 

 ________________________________

 From: Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net>

 

 Hmm.. some HAVE paid more attention to the weight during 

the build, and

 still end up bloated.. 860 is not too bad, IMO.

 

 I'll be trying to use lower power items, such as 

external LED lights and

 EFIS. Since none of them pass Burt Rutans qualification 

of staying in the

 air when tossed there, I will now be adding 

helium-balloon ballast to the

 ship to compensate for it. 

 

 Thanks again for the detail,

 Greg

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:55 am Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

Having re read what I said I take your point, oversimplification.Nevertheless it's surface imperfections

ie any bump or hollow more than a couple of thou over a 2" length is too much. 2000

grit finish is probably as good as it needs for performance.

Bird's wings intrigue me, there are incredibly efficient. I'd love to see a comparison of the fuel burn

of an albatross or an arctic tern with a Europa. Grey Lag goose might be interestin too. How far do they fly without refueling?

Point being I guess boundary layer control is everything, vortex generators had an amazing effect on my Long EZ,

lowered the stall by 9 kts and little effect at higher speeds. (didn't get chance to measure it but the mod developer claims only 2kts

penalty. 

Graham



        From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 9:39

 Subject: Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>



Graham, Are you sure?   You usually are, but competition gliders are produced with amazing attention to their finish - gel coat rubbed down  progressively to 2000 grit and then polished with hard wax. We share their laminar flow aerofoils which are said to be highly sensitive to surface imperfections.

  Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ (with gel coat finish!)



On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:53:13 +0000 (GMT)

 GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The lightest Mono I know of was less than 750lbs. A showroom finish must weigh 20 lbs

 at least and adds nothing to performance.

 Graham

 

 

 

 

 ________________________________

 From: Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net (gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net)>

 

 Hmm.. some HAVE paid more attention to the weight during the build, and

 still end up bloated.. 860 is  not too bad, IMO.

 

 I'll be trying to use lower power items, such as external LED lights and

 EFIS. Since none of them pass Burt Rutans qualification of staying in the

 air when tossed there, I will now be adding helium-balloon ballast to the

 ship to compensate for it. 

 

 Thanks again for the detail,

 Greg > http://forums.matronics                    &nbsptronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri================


	




 

  

  

 [quote][b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:38 am Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

Grahah, Aother point is that although Roger Targett 

probably did spray 20 lbs of gel coat on my plane I am 

certain that I wet & dry sanded more than half of that 

off, and my 914 mono has ended up as one of the lighter 

ones around (at 833lbs) in spite of a very full range of 

kit. David



On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:54:38 +0000 (GMT)

  GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Having re read what I said I take your point, 

oversimplification.Nevertheless it's surface 

imperfections

 ie any bump or hollow more than a couple of thou over a 

2" length is too much. 2000

 grit finish is probably as good as it needs for 

performance.

 Bird's wings intrigue me, there are incredibly 

efficient. I'd love to see a comparison of the fuel burn

 of an albatross or an arctic tern with a Europa. Grey 

Lag goose might be interestin too. How far do they fly 

without refueling?

 Point being I guess boundary layer control is 

everything, vortex generators had an amazing effect on my 

Long EZ,

 lowered the stall by 9 kts and little effect at higher 

speeds. (didn't get chance to measure it but the mod 

developer claims only 2kts

 penalty. 

 Graham

 

 

 

 

 

 ________________________________

 From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 9:39

 Subject: Re: Cowl mods for front belt 

driven alternator

 

 

 

<davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

 

 Graham, Are you sure?   You usually are, but competition 

gliders are produced with amazing attention to their 

finish - gel coat rubbed down progressively to 2000 grit 

and then polished with hard wax. We share their laminar 

flow aerofoils which are said to be highly sensitive to 

surface imperfections.

   Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ (with gel coat finish!)

 

 

 

 On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:53:13 +0000 (GMT)

 GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> wrote:

> The lightest Mono I know of was less than 750lbs. A 

>showroom finish must weigh 20 lbs

> at least and adds nothing to performance.

> Graham

> 

> 

> 

> 

> ________________________________

> From: Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net>

> 

> Hmm.. some HAVE paid more attention to the weight during 

>the build, and

> still end up bloated.. 860 is not too bad, IMO.

> 

> I'll be trying to use lower power items, such as 

>external LED lights and

> EFIS. Since none of them pass Burt Rutans qualification 

>of staying in the

> air when tossed there, I will now be adding 

>helium-balloon ballast to the

> ship to compensate for it. 

> 

> Thanks again==

klinefelter.kevin(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:07 am Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

833 lbs is fantastic. My XS Mono/914/Airmaster came out weighing 50 lbs more! Thinking about that lighter mono wheel and brake to shave off, how much was it?

Kevin



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jan 28, 2014, at 4:37 AM, "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> wrote:


	




 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 

 Grahah, Aother point is that although Roger Targett probably did spray 20 lbs of gel coat on my plane I am certain that I wet & dry sanded more than half of that off, and my 914 mono has ended up as one of the lighter ones around (at 833lbs) in spite of a very full range of kit. David

 

 On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:54:38 +0000 (GMT)

 GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> wrote:

> Having re read what I said I take your point, oversimplification.Nevertheless it's surface imperfections

> ie any bump or hollow more than a couple of thou over a 2" length is too much. 2000

> grit finish is probably as good as it needs for performance.

> Bird's wings intrigue me, there are incredibly efficient. I'd love to see a comparison of the fuel burn

> of an albatross or an arctic tern with a Europa. Grey Lag goose might be interestin too. How far do they fly without refueling?

> Point being I guess boundary layer control is everything, vortex generators had an amazing effect on my Long EZ,

> lowered the stall by 9 kts and little effect at higher speeds. (didn't get chance to measure it but the mod developer claims only 2kts

> penalty. Graham

> ________________________________

> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 9:39

> Subject: Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

> 

> Graham, Are you sure?   You usually are, but competition gliders are produced with amazing attention to their finish - gel coat rubbed down progressively to 2000 grit and then polished with hard wax. We share their laminar flow aerofoils which are said to be highly sensitive to surface imperfections.

>   Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ (with gel coat finish!)

> On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:53:13 +0000 (GMT)

> GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> wrote:

>> The lightest Mono I know of was less than 750lbs. A showroom finish must weigh 20 lbs

>> at least and adds nothing to performance.

>> Graham

>> ________________________________

>> From: Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net>

>> Hmm.. some HAVE paid more attention to the weight during the build, and

>> still end up bloated.. 860 is not too bad, IMO.

>> I'll be trying to use lower power items, such as external LED lights and

>> EFIS. Since none of them pass Burt Rutans qualification of staying in the

>> air when tossed there, I will now be adding helium-balloon ballast to the

>> ship to compensate for it. 

>> Thanks again==

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:44 am Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

I did this using my mates Bridgeport Mill and it took about 700 grams out.

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Zutrauen

Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 8:33 AM

To: europa-list

Subject: Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

on the subject of weight savings, I can't help but notice how heavy the mono swingarm is. I noticed in Germany one builder had put many lightening holes in it (among many other mods).  I had also wondered if indeed it was over-designed and could use some strategically placed holes.  Is that the only builder who has lightened it?  Has anyone done any math on that heavy piece?

Cheers & thx,

Pete

A239

 	  Quote: 	

  [quote][b]

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:49 am Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

Greg, I am using an Odyssey 680.



Do not archive



--

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:52 am Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

David, 833 lb is very impressive.  Do you have wet wings?



--

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:34 am Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

Paul, Not sure what you mean, but  presumably you are 

talking about the classic fabricated wings - mine is the 

standard XS mono with 914/ Woodcomp SR 3000W/ speed kit/ 

blue mountain EFIS/ garmin 495/ Flydat (now being replaced 

by MGL EMS) Garmin SL 30/ Garmin Transponder,/Autopilot/ 

fuel flow meter + odds & ends. Odyssey 680 mounted 

forward. I suppoe the Flydat or equivalent weighs much 

less than a panel full of individual instruments, and 

likewise a solid state EFIS rather than a vacuum system. I 

tried very hard to build light by for instance making sure 

that all added fibreglass wasnot overwet and all bolts 

were cut to leave just 3 threads clear. All wiring was 

done in wire gauge called for rather jan everything being 

wired in a largish gauge.My upholstery is a pleasing 

fabric system adapted from some Citroen seats in a scrap 

car and I guess that saves several pounds over leather. 

Ihave Alcantara + foam backing lining the cockpit from 

seats forward, but just equivalent coloured paint in the 

luggage compartment.

          Apart from sanding most of it off, other 

positives for a gel coat finish are that it needs no 

undercaot and no UV blocking coat.

           The plane initially weighed 831lbs befre I put 

some lead in the tail to get the CoG just right. 

  Regards, David

On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:50:30 -0600

  "Paul McAllister" <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com> wrote:

[quote] 

<paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>

 

 David, 833 lb is very impressive.  Do you have wet 

wings?

 

 --

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:47 am Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

On Jan 28, 2014, at 6:32 AM, Peter Zutrauen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  on the subject of weight savings, I can't help but notice how heavy the mono swingarm is. I noticed in Germany one builder had put many lightening holes in it (among many other mods).  I had also wondered if indeed it was over-designed and could use some strategically placed holes.  Is that the only builder who has lightened it?  Has anyone done any math on that heavy piece?

	




Pete...here's a pix of Paul McCallister's swingarm...Fred

[img]cid:C6E4B40D-0F4F-42DB-BF1E-8F885C09842B[/img]

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Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:47 pm Post subject: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator

On Jan 28, 2014, at 5:34 AM, Kevin Klinefelter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  833 lbs is fantastic. 	




By any chance, might one of you XS builders have the weights for the stock upper and lower cowls?

I'm looking for a data point in assessing my non-stock cowls...

thanks in advance,

Fred



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