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Motorglider wings
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rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 792

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Motorglider wings

Hi Ian



Why would you need to change bungee tension between long and short wings as is hinted at from #6?



6. Undercarriage bungees. The tension had been adjusted and was now considered satisfactory. For future long wing or convertible aircraft, the manual needs to include advice about how to set the bungee tension to suit the two different configurations.



Ron Parigoris

deford.dave(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:46 pm Post subject: Motorglider wings

 	  Quote: 	
		   Why would you need to change bungee tension between long and short

 wings as is hinted at from #6?


	


It isn't necessary to change the tension between long and short wings, but

the difference in retraction/extension force is significant.  Particularly

at higher speeds, aerodynamic forces on the flaps push them toward the

retracted position, giving a reduction in retraction force (and an increase

in extension force) toward the "down" end of the cycle.  After changing from

short wings to long, I am always surprised for the first few flights that I

have to push forward on the gear lever to start it moving after releasing it

from the latched-down gate.  Of course, the difference in force is minimal

near the fully retracted position.  A builder of a dedicated motorglider

might choose to optimize the bungee tension differently from an airplane

with short wings only, but we did not adjust the tension when we added the

long wings to our flying short-wing XS mono.



Dave DeFord

N135TD

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 792

Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Motorglider wings

Hi Dave



Thx. for your reply about bungee tension.



It sounds like you switch back and forth between short and long wings on your XS Mono.



Did you do Mod 78? If so how did you get your flap push-rod to clear post mod 78 spars, airbrake cable and pitch cross tube?



Ron Parigoris

iancook_1(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:41 am Post subject: Motorglider wings

My actual solution to the difficult U/C retraction was to extend the

retraction lever handle (hand grip) so that you have a much firmer hand

hold, it was surprising just how much that minor mod helped to get over the

problem of loss of aerodynamic help from the flaps. My aircraft has flown

with both short and long wings since conversion with no obvious flap

problems/fouls, but I will have a much closer look next time I change wings.

Ian cook

G-CBHI



--

iancook_1(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:01 am Post subject: Motorglider wings

I loaned my A/C to the Europa factory to do the modification and obtain the

first UK Permit to Fly just as the wing spar broke during structural

testing, it was therefore the first completed UK example post the wing

strengthen Modification. Europa were jointly in charge of developing the

Flight Test Programme, as agreed with the LAA.  That is why I do not have

the full background to all of the engineering changes.  I am just trying to

drive the completion of the modification programme through to get the Permit

to Fly and then hopefully to obtain the increase in all up mass.  All this

started way back in September 2009. So it has been a real game of patients!



Ian

G-CBHI



   

--

deford.dave(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:04 am Post subject: Motorglider wings

Ron,



We did switch back and forth between short and long wings, accumulating 90

hours on the long wings, before we heard about the Mod 78 structural

problems and quit using them.



The long wings would not fit into the fuselage of N135TD with the taller

spar tangs of Mod 78.  Building according to the current instructions 15

years ago (modified shortly thereafter), our tank is set low enough that the

"shelf" at the top front interfered with the short wing spar tangs.  I

heated the tank locally to deform it enough to pass the starboard tang, and

then had to do it again for the slightly taller long wing spars.  We would

have to cut open the cockpit module and replace the tank in order to gain

enough clearance for the modified spars, which we are not prepared to do.

Since the long wings are of no use to us, we would be happy to sell them at

just about any price to someone who could use them (after applying Mod 78,

of course).



Dave DeFord

N135TD



 	  Quote: 	
		   It sounds like you switch back and forth between short and long wings

 on your XS Mono.

 

 Did you do Mod 78? If so how did you get your flap push-rod to clear

 post mod 78 spars, airbrake cable and pitch cross tube?

 

 Ron Parigoris

alan.twigg775(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:38 am Post subject: Motorglider wings

Bonded wing fittings today, off to pray and drink beer. Will look on Tuesday.

Angles all seem ok.

Alan



Sent from my iPhone



[quote] On 8 Feb 2014, at 21:22, Ian Cook <iancook_1(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

 

 Hi Jim,

    Mine is a mono with retro fit MG wings but not aware of foul you

 describe. Still trying to find the details behind 17 myself.

 

 Ian

 

 --

alan.twigg775(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:43 am Post subject: Motorglider wings

Would have loved to speak one year ago having just completed my long wings.

Like Dave I have removed the aileron quick connects to fit countersunk bolts and skim the edges otherwise although tight they fit, just.

Alan

Sent from my iPhone

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 9 Feb 2014, at 14:03, "David DeFord" <deford.dave(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 Ron,

 We did switch back and forth between short and long wings, accumulating 90

 hours on the long wings, before we heard about the Mod 78 structural

 problems and quit using them.

 The long wings would not fit into the fuselage of N135TD with the taller

 spar tangs of Mod 78.  Building according to the current instructions 15

 years ago (modified shortly thereafter), our tank is set low enough that the

 "shelf" at the top front interfered with the short wing spar tangs.  I

 heated the tank locally to deform it enough to pass the starboard tang, and

 then had to do it again for the slightly taller long wing spars.  We would

 have to cut open the cockpit module and replace the tank in order to gain

 enough clearance for the modified spars, which we are not prepared to do.

 Since the long wings are of no use to us, we would be happy to sell them at

 just about any price to someone who could use them (after applying Mod 78,

 of course).

 Dave DeFord

 N135TD

> It sounds like you switch back and forth between short and long wings

> on your XS Mono.

> 

> Did you do Mod 78? If so how did you get your flap push-rod to clear

> post mod 78 spars, airbrake cable and pitch cross tube?

> 

> Ron Parigoris

djaflyact

Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Posts: 27

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Motorglider wings

Lots of topics here. Mine is registered as an aircraft/motorglider. I don't intend to use the short wings, so I don't have the issue with the flap rod. I will be getting some glide performance numbers once we get back to good weather.



I found that at glide speed, the back of the wingtips had turbulent flow and there was even reversed flow. I think they are drag at that point. I have removed the outer portion of the tips that were not producing lift at glide speed. Still not sure what to do about the wingtips.



My gear has the fairing and is very easy to operate. There is no flap rod attached to it, of course.



With the 914 engine, i get about 150 knots TAS at 17,500 feet. It has easily made the flight from Minden, NV to OshKosh in one day - including a 3 hours enroute stop to time the arrival at OSH.



Dave

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:24 pm Post subject: Motorglider wings

Just a note on sink rates in 419PL:

From my 1000 miles in the MG (copies in Europa Flyer or my website www.customflightcreations.com accessories and tips look under techniques). 

Sink Rates observed: Engine off, prop feathered from one test flight: 

 

90 Kts 400fpm 

 

80Kts 300fpm 

 

70 Kts 300 fpm 

 

65 Kts 250 fpm 

 

55 Kts 350 fpm trimmed nearly full aft. 

 

Since Mod 78 makes the spar the same height from root spar to the tip of the spar, it should not be a major problem normally.  Careful construction only thickens the spar about 1/16 of an inch.  I am sorry Dave, that your tank was put in too low.  If the interior is not hard to remove, consider moving the tank up.  Yes its a mess but in a week it could be done.  I know it is easy for me to say, as one mistake and the cost of a new tank gets figured in makes the job a real knuckle biter.  

 

I do not do tech support for Europa any longer, but if you come to Sun 'n Fun (Site 33 this year) you can look over what we have done to ensure the Mod 78 spar clears controls, includes a spar cup/support for rigging ease, and I'll show how to remove the crosslink bolts and add countersunk screws which preserves all the structure.  If you can't make the show, then email me off line and I'll send you what I have.

 

I supplied Europa with drawings on modifying the flap push rod to clear the spars as that is a real problem on the mono.  Trigear is a piece of cake.  Keep the spars thin and it will work.

 

The extra 100 pounds the glider wing adds can make the plane a single seat only aircraft unless you built light.  It does move right along if you go really high, but below 10,000 MSL it is basically an economical 120 knot bird.  You can really stretch the range with the long wings.  

 

Once the health becomes a concern, it is also quite nice to fly as a glider with no medical.  

 

Regards,

Bud Yerly

 

 

 



 

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: deford.dave(at)gmail.com

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Motorglider wings

 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 06:03:17 -0800

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "David DeFord" <deford.dave(at)gmail.com>

 

 Ron,

 

 We did switch back and forth between short and long wings, accumulating 90

 hours on the long wings, before we heard about the Mod 78 structural

 problems and quit using them.

 

 The long wings would not fit into the fuselage of N135TD with the taller

 spar tangs of Mod 78.  Building according to the current instructions 15

 years ago (modified shortly thereafter), our tank is set low enough that the

 "shelf" at the top front interfered with the short wing spar tangs.  I

 heated the tank locally to deform it enough to pass the starboard tang, and

 then had to do it again for the slightly taller long wing spars.  We would

 have to cut open the cockpit module and replace the tank in order to gain

 enough clearance for the modified spars, which we are not prepared to do.

 Since the long wings are of no use to us, we would be happy to sell them at

 just about any price to someone who could use them (after applying Mod 78,

 of course).

 

 Dave DeFord

 N135TD

 

 > It sounds like you switch back and forth between short and long wings

 > on your XS Mono.

 > 

 > Did you do Mod 78? If so how did you get your flap push-rod to clear

 > post mod 78 spars, airbrake cable and pitch cross tube?

 > 

 &gt========================

 

 

 


	


 		 	   		  

  [quote][b]

alan.twigg775(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:36 pm Post subject: Motorglider wings

Bud, details of post Mod 78 Spar cup(s) would be most welcome. Wing root fittings bonded on yesterday, I removed the aileron cranks as I need to trim them and have my countersunk bolts ready as Dave Anderson and you describe. Next job after removing wings and drilling + bolting the fittings is to countersink the Aileron cranks. Any advice on doing this in sittu would be welcomed . Regards

Alan Twigg

Sent from my iPhone

[quote] On 10 Feb 2014, at 01:23, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:

 Just a note on sink rates in 419PL:

 From my 1000 miles in the MG (copies in Europa Flyer or my website www.customflightcreations.com accessories and tips look under techniques). 

 Sink Rates observed: Engine off, prop feathered from one test flight: 

 90 Kts 400fpm 

 80Kts 300fpm 

 70 Kts 300 fpm 

 65 Kts 250 fpm 

 55 Kts 350 fpm trimmed nearly full aft. 

 Since Mod 78 makes the spar the same height from root spar to the tip of the spar, it should not be a major problem normally.  Careful construction only thickens the spar about 1/16 of an inch.  I am sorry Dave, that your tank was put in too low.  If the interior is not hard to remove, consider moving the tank up.  Yes its a mess but in a week it could be done.  I know it is easy for me to say, as one mistake and the cost of a new tank gets figured in makes the job a real knuckle biter.  

 I do not do tech support for Europa any longer, but if you come to Sun 'n Fun (Site 33 this year) you can look over what we have done to ensure the Mod 78 spar clears controls, includes a spar cup/support for rigging ease, and I'll show how to remove the crosslink bolts and add countersunk screws which preserves all the structure.  If you can't make the show, then email me off line and I'll send you what I have.

 I supplied Europa with drawings on modifying the flap push rod to clear the spars as that is a real problem on the mono.  Trigear is a piece of cake.  Keep the spars thin and it will work.

 The extra 100 pounds the glider wing adds can make the plane a single seat only aircraft unless you built light.  It does move right along if you go really high, but below 10,000 MSL it is basically an economical 120 knot bird.  You can really stretch the range with the long wings.  

 Once the health becomes a concern, it is also quite nice to fly as a glider with no medical.  

 Regards,

 Bud Yerly

 > From: deford.dave(at)gmail.com

 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 > Subject: RE: Re: Motorglider wings

 > Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 06:03:17 -0800

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > Ron,

 > 

 > We did switch back and forth between short and long wings, accumulating 90

 > hours on the long wings, before we heard about the Mod 78 structural

 > problems and quit using them.

 > 

 > The long wings would not fit into the fuselage of N135TD with the taller

 > spar tangs of Mod 78. Building according to the current instructions 15

 > years ago (modified shortly thereafter), our tank is set low enough that the

 > "shelf" at the top front interfered with the short wing spar tangs. I

 > heated the tank locally to deform it enough to pass the starboard tang, and

 > then had to do it again for the slightly taller long wing spars. We would

 > have to cut open the cockpit module and replace the tank in order to gain

 > enough clearance for the modified spars, which we are not prepared to do

churchy

Joined: 04 Nov 2011
Posts: 48

Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:57 am Post subject: Motorglider wings

Bud

Thanks for this info - I assume these were all at 1,370 lbs?  I see 419PL is a trigear so I assume we can expect slightly better than -250 fpm from a mono set up at the same weight?

regards

Richard

Sent from my iPad

[quote] On 10 Feb 2014, at 01:23, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:

 Just a note on sink rates in 419PL:

 From my 1000 miles in the MG (copies in Europa Flyer or my website www.customflightcreations.com accessories and tips look under techniques). 

 Sink Rates observed: Engine off, prop feathered from one test flight: 

 90 Kts 400fpm 

 80Kts 300fpm 

 70 Kts 300 fpm 

 65 Kts 250 fpm 

 55 Kts 350 fpm trimmed nearly full aft. 

 Since Mod 78 makes the spar the same height from root spar to the tip of the spar, it should not be a major problem normally.  Careful construction only thickens the spar about 1/16 of an inch.  I am sorry Dave, that your tank was put in too low.  If the interior is not hard to remove, consider moving the tank up.  Yes its a mess but in a week it could be done.  I know it is easy for me to say, as one mistake and the cost of a new tank gets figured in makes the job a real knuckle biter.  

 I do not do tech support for Europa any longer, but if you come to Sun 'n Fun (Site 33 this year) you can look over what we have done to ensure the Mod 78 spar clears controls, includes a spar cup/support for rigging ease, and I'll show how to remove the crosslink bolts and add countersunk screws which preserves all the structure.  If you can't make the show, then email me off line and I'll send you what I have.

 I supplied Europa with drawings on modifying the flap push rod to clear the spars as that is a real problem on the mono.  Trigear is a piece of cake.  Keep the spars thin and it will work.

 The extra 100 pounds the glider wing adds can make the plane a single seat only aircraft unless you built light.  It does move right along if you go really high, but below 10,000 MSL it is basically an economical 120 knot bird.  You can really stretch the range with the long wings.  

 Once the health becomes a concern, it is also quite nice to fly as a glider with no medical.  

 Regards,

 Bud Yerly

 > From: deford.dave(at)gmail.com

 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 > Subject: RE: Re: Motorglider wings

 > Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 06:03:17 -0800

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > Ron,

 > 

 > We did switch back and forth between short and long wings, accumulating 90

 > hours on the long wings, before we heard about the Mod 78 structural

 > problems and quit using them.

 > 

 > The long wings would not fit into the fuselage of N135TD with the taller

 > spar tangs of Mod 78. Building according to the current instructions 15

 > years ago (modified shortly thereafter), our tank is set low enough that the

 > "shelf" at the top front interfered with the short wing spar tangs. I

 > heated the tank locally to deform it enough to pass the starboard tang, and

 > then had to do it again for the slightly taller long wing spars. We would

 > have to cut open the cockpit module and replace the tank in order to gain

 > enough clearance for the modified spars, which we are not prepared to do

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:14 pm Post subject: Motorglider wings

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Richard,

 I would assume the mono with wheel retracted would be slightly  better.  Those three sticks can generate a bit more drag even with wheel  pants.

  

 Bud

 [quote]   ---

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:15 pm Post subject: Motorglider wings

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Alan,

 I'll get back with you off line.  Had a go at the cancer center and  clients in the shop which has tied me up.  I have a bit of time to go in  and see if I have some info. / photo's.

  

 Bud

 [quote]   ---

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