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tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
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 Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:07 pm Post subject: FK fairings...............input requested. |
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Gidday,
Some of you may recognise these beautiful fairings of Fred Kleins, the Spitfire mod I call it. Freds instructions can be modified of course, and I’ve done that by keeping them complete as one piece, and making them removable with a few minutes and a spanner. I am interested in input on what people think of the aerodynamic impact of me doing it this way though, whereas Fred kept the aerodynamic efficiency of the top section of the fairing by splitting it such that half stays on the fuse, half on wing an half on flap. This means that half the fairing articulates as the flap does, which means it has half the impact. I expect I will have less root lift obviously, and more drag, however I hear that the aircraft needs more drag, so I’ll certainly get that. I have a little clamshell speed brake here, and possibly I might have a greater load on my flaps due to the drag, but the air can also get under the outer portion of the fairing and mightn’t be too disturbed except for the portion completely under the fairing. If I don’t like this setup, or decide to change it during the build, I can cut them to follow FKs intent. Meanwhile I would like to request input from others. Thanks
Regards
Tony Renshaw
Sydney Aussie.
P.S. I am unsure if my photos will be embedded in the list bounced emails. I don’t get other people’s photos, which is irritating, and hope that others don’t have this issue.
P.S.S. or is it P.P.S. ? Thank you for the responses regarding my battery location question.
[img]cid:4EBB87DD-4405-4CBD-92DE-12B7DD96279C[/img]
[img]cid:8B56214E-CDC3-4E35-BD31-83BDD9D4576D[/img]
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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| Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:55 pm Post subject: FK fairings...............input requested. |
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Tony, don't believe you want more drag! It is as welcome
as a hole in the head! The major feature of the Europa is
that it has low drag aerodynamics, so gives great
performance in terms of speed for given horsepower or fuel
usage. Admittedly slowing down a 'slippery' plane needs a
bit of forethought but certainly not extra drag. I suspect
the benefit of any change in the fairings will be
aesthetic principally, as Don Dykin knew a bit about
aerodynamics. One thing is clear, however, and that is
that you should not have leaky joints allowing air to
bleed from the hi pressure underneath the wing to the
upper surface. If your joints are not air tight then
taping them like every glider does will bring measurable
performance benefits.
Regards, David
On Sat, 15 Feb 2014 09:05:46 +1100
Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Gidday,
Some of you may recognise these beautiful fairings of
Fred Kleins, the Spitfire mod I call it. Freds
instructions can be modified of course, and I’ve done
that by keeping them complete as one piece, and making
them removable with a few minutes and a spanner. I am
interested in input on what people think of the
aerodynamic impact of me doing it this way though,
whereas Fred kept the aerodynamic efficiency of the top
section of the fairing by splitting it such that half
stays on the fuse, half on wing an half on flap. This
means that half the fairing articulates as the flap does,
which means it has half the impact. I expect I will have
less root lift obviously, and more drag, however I hear
that the aircraft needs more drag, so I’ll certainly get
that. I have a little clamshell speed brake here, and
possibly I might have a greater load on my flaps due to
the drag, but the air can also get under the outer
portion of the fairing and mightn’t be too disturbed
except for the portion completely under the fairing. If I
don’t like this setup, or decide to change it during the
build, I can cut them to follow FKs intent. Meanwhile I
would like to request input from others. Thanks
Regards
Tony Renshaw
Sydney Aussie.
P.S. I am unsure if my photos will be embedded in the
list bounced emails. I don’t get other people’s photos,
which is irritating, and hope that others don’t have this
issue.
P.S.S. or is it P.P.S. ? Thank you for the responses
regarding my battery location question.
|
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tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:32 am Post subject: FK fairings...............input requested. |
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Thanks David,
We’ll see how these FK fairings work out. I am not sure how the Spitfire flap articulates, but I suspect it will be the same as these fairings i.e. the flap retracts into the fairing such that it creates a small clamshell at the root end of the flap when it is extended. The drag I mention is with them deployed, and in combination with the lift created from the flap outboard of this shadowed part, would mean that the flap would have a lesser impact than a completely clean flap, but not by much. Any increase in drag is better at the root of the wing, so if lift is killed here, it shouldn’t matter that much. Thats my view sofar, and I have made them removable so that if I am not happy with the collective wisdom to strap them on for the first flight, I won’t. I can fly it clean to start with, which would be the wisest and then extend the flaps and check out the flight characteristics at altitude. Like I said, I don’t expect anything untoward, but I don’t actually know so am keen for the input.
Also, I have extended my wing closeouts so I don’t have any gap more than 3 mm between the side of the fuse and the wings, without fairings. So, if I don’t like the flight characteristics of these fairings I can remove them, on the airfield, and go fly without any fairings aft of the spar on the top of the wing. It looks good the way it is without fairings, and if it wasn’t for the fact that there is interference drag in that area, what I have underneath the fairing is gross overkill for a good outcome. Don’t ask me why I did it, to cover it up with a fairing, but hey, you get carried away from time to time, or I do.
Regards
Tony Renshaw
Here is a picture of the port one, untrimmed, in plan view. Weighs about 1 kg +/-
[img]cid:495F6B65-BCC0-42B8-B7A6-096CFF90C74C[/img]
On 15 Feb 2014, at 6:54 pm, David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:
[quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
Tony, don't believe you want more drag! It is as welcome as a hole in the head! The major feature of the Europa is that it has low drag aerodynamics, so gives great performance in terms of speed for given horsepower or fuel usage. Admittedly slowing down a 'slippery' plane needs a bit of forethought but certainly not extra drag. I suspect the benefit of any change in the fairings will be aesthetic principally, as Don Dykin knew a bit about aerodynamics. One thing is clear, however, and that is that you should not have leaky joints allowing air to bleed from the hi pressure underneath the wing to the upper surface. If your joints are not air tight then taping them like every glider does will bring measurable performance benefits.
Regards, David
On Sat, 15 Feb 2014 09:05:46 +1100
Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com (tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Gidday,
Some of you may recognise these beautiful fairings of Fred Kleins, the Spitfire mod I call it. Freds instructions can be modified of course, and I’ve done that by keeping them complete as one piece, and making them removable with a few minutes and a spanner. I am interested in input on what people think of the aerodynamic impact of me doing it this way though, whereas Fred kept the aerodynamic efficiency of the top section of the fairing by splitting it such that half stays on the fuse, half on wing an half on flap. This means that half the fairing articulates as the flap does, which means it has half the impact. I expect I will have less root lift obviously, and more drag, however I hear that the aircraft needs more drag, so I’ll certainly get that. I have a little clamshell speed brake here, and possibly I might have a greater load on my flaps due to the drag, but the air can also get under the outer portion of the fairing and mightn’t be too disturbed except for the portion completely under the fairing. If I don’t like this setup, or decide to change it during the build, I can cut them to follow FKs intent. Meanwhile I would like to request input from others. Thanks
Regards
Tony Renshaw
Sydney Aussie.
P.S. I am unsure if my photos will be embedded in the list bounced emails. I don’t get other people’s photos, which is irritating, and hope that others don’t have this issue. P.S.S. or is it P.P.S. ? Thank you for the responses regarding my battery location question. http://www.matroni &nclass="Apple-converted-space"> http://forums.matronics.com
_ - &nbs --> http://www.matronics.com/co=================
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:27 am Post subject: FK fairings...............input requested. |
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Hi Tony,
I have been thinking about how to implement Fred's Wing Fairing sometime later. In interest of data-gathering (for me), it would need to be removable to allow for testing flight characteristics of the aircraft in multiple configurations, including the original fairing (also for backward compatibility for the other wings available). That would be a good way to see how it performs. Because of this, it seems that keeping it whole (no cutting) might be the best course of action. It's nice to know that someone else is considering the same. If you fly before me, you would have the best information available about how the un-chopped fairing will affect flight performance.  I am no aerodynamicist, but do agree with your interpretation below. Any effects of the fairing hanging in the breeze with the flaps deployed can be tested carefully at altitude. Otherwise, it has been tested by a number of others in the flaps-up position and is intended to be less draggy in that state.
I don't think (and this is pure conjecture) the exposed surface area is large enough to do anything in the negative way, especially since its in competition with a very large flap that is doing most of the wind directing.
BTW: I look forward to obtaining fairing attachment ideas (i.e. nutplates?) from you after you've had time to percolate the project.
Regards,
Greg
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Renshaw
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 1:31 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com; davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk
Subject: Re: FK fairings...............input requested.
Thanks David,
We’ll see how these FK fairings work out. I am not sure how the Spitfire flap articulates, but I suspect it will be the same as these fairings i.e. the flap retracts into the fairing such that it creates a small clamshell at the root end of the flap when it is extended. The drag I mention is with them deployed, and in combination with the lift created from the flap outboard of this shadowed part, would mean that the flap would have a lesser impact than a completely clean flap, but not by much. Any increase in drag is better at the root of the wing, so if lift is killed here, it shouldn’t matter that much. Thats my view sofar, and I have made them removable so that if I am not happy with the collective wisdom to strap them on for the first flight, I won’t. I can fly it clean to start with, which would be the wisest and then extend the flaps and check out the flight characteristics at altitude. Like I said, I don’t expect anything untoward, but I don’t actually know so am keen for the input.
Also, I have extended my wing closeouts so I don’t have any gap more than 3 mm between the side of the fuse and the wings, without fairings. So, if I don’t like the flight characteristics of these fairings I can remove them, on the airfield, and go fly without any fairings aft of the spar on the top of the wing. It looks good the way it is without fairings, and if it wasn’t for the fact that there is interference drag in that area, what I have underneath the fairing is gross overkill for a good outcome. Don’t ask me why I did it, to cover it up with a fairing, but hey, you get carried away from time to time, or I do.
Regards
Tony Renshaw
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Fred Klein
Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:35 pm Post subject: FK fairings...............input requested. |
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Tony & Greg...I can't resist chiming in here...I'm delighted to see Tony's innovative approach to installing these wing root fairings so that they can be detachable in a way which would address the question as to whether or not any in-flight efficiencies are gained w/ their use...if I'd had more of my wits about me, I would have, and perhaps should have, done so on my ship...Fred
On Feb 19, 2014, at 11:26 AM, Greg Fuchs wrote:
[quote] Hi Tony,
I have been thinking about how to implement Fred's Wing Fairing sometime later. In interest of data-gathering (for me), it would need to be removable to allow for testing flight characteristics of the aircraft in multiple configurations, including the original fairing (also for backward compatibility for the other wings available). That would be a good way to see how it performs. Because of this, it seems that keeping it whole (no cutting) might be the best course of action. It's nice to know that someone else is considering the same. If you fly before me, you would have the best information available about how the un-chopped fairing will affect flight performance. I am no aerodynamicist, but do agree with your interpretation below. Any effects of the fairing hanging in the breeze with the flaps deployed can be tested carefully at altitude. Otherwise, it has been tested by a number of others in the flaps-up position and is intended to be less draggy in that state.
I don't think (and this is pure conjecture) the exposed surface area is large enough to do anything in the negative way, especially since its in competition with a very large flap that is doing most of the wind directing.
BTW: I look forward to obtaining fairing attachment ideas (i.e. nutplates?) from you after you've had time to percolate the project.
Regards,
Greg
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Renshaw
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 1:31 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com); davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)
Subject: Re: FK fairings...............input requested.
Thanks David,
We’ll see how these FK fairings work out. I am not sure how the Spitfire flap articulates, but I suspect it will be the same as these fairings i.e. the flap retracts into the fairing such that it creates a small clamshell at the root end of the flap when it is extended. The drag I mention is with them deployed, and in combination with the lift created from the flap outboard of this shadowed part, would mean that the flap would have a lesser impact than a completely clean flap, but not by much. Any increase in drag is better at the root of the wing, so if lift is killed here, it shouldn’t matter that much. Thats my view sofar, and I have made them removable so that if I am not happy with the collective wisdom to strap them on for the first flight, I won’t. I can fly it clean to start with, which would be the wisest and then extend the flaps and check out the flight characteristics at altitude. Like I said, I don’t expect anything untoward, but I don’t actually know so am keen for the input.
Also, I have extended my wing closeouts so I don’t have any gap more than 3 mm between the side of the fuse and the wings, without fairings. So, if I don’t like the flight characteristics of these fairings I can remove them, on the airfield, and go fly without any fairings aft of the spar on the top of the wing. It looks good the way it is without fairings, and if it wasn’t for the fact that there is interference drag in that area, what I have underneath the fairing is gross overkill for a good outcome. Don’t ask me why I did it, to cover it up with a fairing, but hey, you get carried away from time to time, or I do.
Regards
Tony Renshaw
| Quote: |
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
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tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:32 am Post subject: FK fairings...............input requested. |
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Hey, Sensai FK.....you can't climb down from my pedestal that easily!
I could never have made those complex curves as diligently.
I struggled to simply glue them together 😜
Tony R
Sent from my iPad
On 21 Feb 2014, at 9:33 am, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:
[quote]Tony & Greg...I can't resist chiming in here...I'm delighted to see Tony's innovative approach to installing these wing root fairings so that they can be detachable in a way which would address the question as to whether or not any in-flight efficiencies are gained w/ their use...if I'd had more of my wits about me, I would have, and perhaps should have, done so on my ship...Fred
On Feb 19, 2014, at 11:26 AM, Greg Fuchs wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Tony,
I have been thinking about how to implement Fred's Wing Fairing sometime later. In interest of data-gathering (for me), it would need to be removable to allow for testing flight characteristics of the aircraft in multiple configurations, including the original fairing (also for backward compatibility for the other wings available). That would be a good way to see how it performs. Because of this, it seems that keeping it whole (no cutting) might be the best course of action. It's nice to know that someone else is considering the same. If you fly before me, you would have the best information available about how the un-chopped fairing will affect flight performance. I am no aerodynamicist, but do agree with your interpretation below. Any effects of the fairing hanging in the breeze with the flaps deployed can be tested carefully at altitude. Otherwise, it has been tested by a number of others in the flaps-up position and is intended to be less draggy in that state.
I don't think (and this is pure conjecture) the exposed surface area is large enough to do anything in the negative way, especially since its in competition with a very large flap that is doing most of the wind directing.
BTW: I look forward to obtaining fairing attachment ideas (i.e. nutplates?) from you after you've had time to percolate the project.
Regards,
Greg
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Tony Renshaw
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 1:31 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com); davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)
Subject: Re: FK fairings...............input requested.
Thanks David,
We’ll see how these FK fairings work out. I am not sure how the Spitfire flap articulates, but I suspect it will be the same as these fairings i.e. the flap retracts into the fairing such that it creates a small clamshell at the root end of the flap when it is extended. The drag I mention is with them deployed, and in combination with the lift created from the flap outboard of this shadowed part, would mean that the flap would have a lesser impact than a completely clean flap, but not by much. Any increase in drag is better at the root of the wing, so if lift is killed here, it shouldn’t matter that much. Thats my view sofar, and I have made them removable so that if I am not happy with the collective wisdom to strap them on for the first flight, I won’t. I can fly it clean to start with, which would be the wisest and then extend the flaps and check out the flight characteristics at altitude. Like I said, I don’t expect anything untoward, but I don’t actually know so am keen for the input.
Also, I have extended my wing closeouts so I don’t have any gap more than 3 mm between the side of the fuse and the wings, without fairings. So, if I don’t like the flight characteristics of these fairings I can remove them, on the airfield, and go fly without any fairings aft of the spar on the top of the wing. It looks good the way it is without fairings, and if it wasn’t for the fact that there is interference drag in that area, what I have underneath the fairing is gross overkill for a good outcome. Don’t ask me why I did it, to cover it up with a fairing, but hey, you get carried away from time to time, or I do.
Regards
Tony Renshaw
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
a-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
//forums.matronics.com
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:05 am Post subject: FK fairings...............input requested. |
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Fred,
Ah, no worries. One of us will get the numbers on your creative master-piece sooner or later..
Tony & Greg...I can't resist chiming in here...I'm delighted to see Tony's innovative approach to installing these wing root fairings so that they can be detachable in a way which would address the question as to whether or not any in-flight efficiencies are gained w/ their use...if I'd had more of my wits about me, I would have, and perhaps should have, done so on my ship...Fred
[quote]
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