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Elevator Limits

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schmoboy

Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 130

Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:50 pm Post subject: Elevator Limits

I'm in the process of adjusting my pushrods and elevator stops for panel 

clearance and travel limits.  I've reviewed all the archived posts on 

adding stops and other techniques for getting panel clearance.  I think 

I have a good handle on that.



What I was curious about is the travel limits of the elevator.  In 

particular the elevator up limits.  I assume that because of the nose 

heavy aspect of the RV-10 that one would want to make sure that the up 

travel limit of the elevator is at the higher end of the limits?  I'm 

imagining that with the loading at the forward most CG you'd want max 

throw there for landing flare?



I know I am going to have to add a stop to prevent panel interference, 

but as that only effects the down travel, as long as I am at or above 

the elevator down limit of 20 degrees I should be fine?  I'm imagining 

the down limit being important for stall recovery and with the 

relatively easy stall recovery of the rv-10 that the lower limit of 20 

degrees is ok?



So long story short, is it better to be at the higher side of the up 

elevator limits and ok to be at the lower side of the down limits?



-Sean #40303 (light at the end of the tunnel phase)

davidsoutpost(at)comcast.
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:19 pm Post subject: Elevator Limits

Mine were adjusted per plans when I built.   I am in Phase 1 testing and found last week when I was loaded up forward CG, I had trouble getting the nose up in the landing flair.  I used full up elevator trim to help but still landed three point.  Part of the reason is I have short legs and like the seat track pin in the third position aft of front.  With the big rotary knob on the Crow seat belt harness, the stick grip hits that first and can not go to the full aft stop limit.  I adjusted the control tube for more nose up authority in this position however I am going to come up with pedal extensions to get the seat further back. 

From: "Sean Stephens" <sean(at)stephensville.com>

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 10:49:11 PM

Subject: Elevator Limits

--> RV10-List message posted by: Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com>

I'm in the process of adjusting my pushrods and elevator stops for panel 

clearance and travel limits.  I've reviewed all the archived posts on 

adding stops and other techniques for getting panel clearance.  I think 

I have a good handle on that.

What I was curious about is the travel limits of the elevator.  In 

particular the elevator up limits.  I assume that because of the nose 

heavy aspect of the RV-10 that one would want to make sure that the up 

travel limit of the elevator is at the higher end of the limits?  I'm 

imagining that with the loading at the forward most CG you'd want max 

throw there for landing flare?

I know I am going to have to add a stop to prevent panel interference, 

but as that only effects the down travel, as long as I am at or above 

the elevator down limit of 20 degrees I should be fine?  I'm imagining 

the down limit being important for stall recovery and with the 

relatively easy stall recovery of the rv-10 that the lower limit of 20 

degrees is ok?

So long story short, is it better to be at the higher side of the up 

elevator limits and ok to be at the lower side of the down limits?

-Sean #40303 (light at the end of the tunnel phase)

 [quote][b]

jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:59 pm Post subject: Elevator Limits

Has anyone looked at adding ballast back by the tail? or how about moving the battery further aft?  Seems that this issue can also be remedied with a further aft CG.  Even a LB or two ballast in the tail can make a HUGE difference!  Obviously do the W&B calculations, but you may be able to add a negligible amount of weight to the airframe in the tail section and make it work for you. I am sure it has much more docile handling when the CG is further aft.



Safe flying!



On Feb 26, 2014, at 7:19 PM, David Clifford <davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net (davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

[quote]Mine were adjusted per plans when I built.   I am in Phase 1 testing and found last week when I was loaded up forward CG, I had trouble getting the nose up in the landing flair.  I used full up elevator trim to help but still landed three point.  Part of the reason is I have short legs and like the seat track pin in the third position aft of front.  With the big rotary knob on the Crow seat belt harness, the stick grip hits that first and can not go to the full aft stop limit.  I adjusted the control tube for more nose up authority in this position however I am going to come up with pedal extensions to get the seat further back. 



From: "Sean Stephens" <sean(at)stephensville.com (sean(at)stephensville.com)>

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 10:49:11 PM

Subject: Elevator Limits

--> RV10-List message posted by: Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com>

I'm in the process of adjusting my pushrods and elevator stops for panel 

clearance and travel limits.  I've reviewed all the archived posts on 

adding stops and other techniques for getting panel clearance.  I think 

I have a good handle on that.

What I was curious about is the travel limits of the elevator.  In 

particular the elevator up limits.  I assume that because of the nose 

heavy aspect of the RV-10 that one would want to make sure that the up 

travel limit of the elevator is at the higher end of the limits?  I'm 

imagining that with the loading at the forward most CG you'd want max 

throw there for landing flare?

I know I am going to have to add a stop to prevent panel interference, 

but as that only effects the down travel, as long as I am at or above 

the elevator down limit of 20 degrees I should be fine?  I'm imagining 

the down limit being important for stall recovery and with the 

relatively easy stall recovery of the rv-10 that the lower limit of 20 

degrees is ok?

So long story short, is it better to be at the higher side of the up 

elevator limits and ok to be at the lower side of the down limits?

-Sean #40303 (light at the end of the tunnel phase)





  	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

charliewaffles

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 18

Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Elevator Limits

The mothership runs with ballast in the baggage compartment most of the time. I have a bag with 20lbs of Shot in there now. I started with 40lbs, for solo work, but since I have added a survival/maintenance bag that weight 20lbs, I reduced the shot. Definitely helps with the landing flare. Some people use water jugs as they can just be dumped out and refilled as needed if the scenario dictates a change at a remote location.

Dick Sipp

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Hope, MI

Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:35 pm Post subject: Elevator Limits

An item that has not been mentioned so far is the flap position for  landing.

  

 With a forward cg (solo or two light front seat passengers) a half flap  landing can be more comfortable, full up trim probably not required in this  configuration.

  

 I use full flaps on landing 95% of the time.  I always have 15 lbs. or  so in the back of the baggage compartment. This does require (in my airplane)  full up trim and about 2-3 pounds aft stick pressure to hold 65-70 KIAS on  final.  Full aft stick on roll out to hold the nose off does not require  unusual aft pressure.

  

 I rigged the elevator as best I could to the factory spec limits. Standard  4 point harness, no crotch strap (control stop is limiting). I have always felt  a concern for any airplane that had something limiting the controls other than  the design stops (i.e. panel or other obstruction).  All of the airplanes  will be different to a degree based on empty CG.

  

 Oh, on takeoff like Van says, I use half flap on all the RVs.  Itâ€™s  cool to get off the runway before anybody else accept the Alaska bush guys.[img]cid:2410D527097F4A709EB24B813889C330(at)DickPC[/img]

  

  

 Dick Sipp

 RV4 750 hours sold

 RV12 50 hours built for friend

 RV10 530 hours and counting

  

  

    

  From: David Clifford (davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net) 

 Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 11:19 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Elevator Limits

  



   Mine were adjusted per plans when I  built.   I am in Phase 1 testing and found last week when I was loaded  up forward CG, I had trouble getting the nose up in the landing flair.  I  used full up elevator trim to help but still landed three point.  Part of  the reason is I have short legs and like the seat track pin in the third  position aft of front.  With the big rotary knob on the Crow seat belt  harness, the stick grip hits that first and can not go to the full aft stop  limit.  I adjusted the control tube for more nose up authority in this  position however I am going to come up with pedal extensions to get the seat  further back. 



  

   From:  "Sean Stephens" <sean(at)stephensville.com>

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014  10:49:11 PM

Subject: Elevator Limits

  

--> RV10-List message posted by: Sean Stephens  <sean(at)stephensville.com>

  

I'm in the process of adjusting my pushrods and elevator stops  for panel 

clearance and travel limits.  I've reviewed all the archived  posts on 

adding stops and other techniques for getting panel  clearance.  I think 

I have a good handle on that.

  

What I was curious about is the travel limits of the  elevator.  In 

particular the elevator up limits.  I assume that  because of the nose 

heavy aspect of the RV-10 that one would want to make  sure that the up 

travel limit of the elevator is at the higher end of the  limits?  I'm 

imagining that with the loading at the forward most CG  you'd want max 

throw there for landing flare?

  

I know I am going to have to add a stop to prevent panel  interference, 

but as that only effects the down travel, as long as I am at  or above 

the elevator down limit of 20 degrees I should be fine?  I'm  imagining 

the down limit being important for stall recovery and with the  

relatively easy stall recovery of the rv-10 that the lower limit of 20  

degrees is ok?

  

So long story short, is it better to be at the higher side of  the up 

elevator limits and ok to be at the lower side of the down  limits?

  

-Sean #40303 (light at the end of the tunnel phase)

 

  

  

  



  



 	  Quote: 	
		  



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href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

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jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:58 pm Post subject: Elevator Limits

You bring up a good point on flap position.  The less flaps one has in, the higher the angle of attack will be to produce the same amount of lift. The catch with this is runway length. I fly C-130s and on our no flap landings are fast and we have to be careful not to strike the tail on landing during the flare.  The extra speed and higher angle of attack is required to produce enough lift.  This being said, keep an eye on your runway length required if you intend on using low or no flap settings.



Remember that there are some cracks that Vans is tracking in the RV8 series horizontal stabilizers. Some owners are finding this but most are not.  Be sure to take into account the stress that the stabilizer will see.  It is an inverted wing and has stresses as such during all phases of flight. 

I am building a bush caddy L164 for the bush in Alaska.  Slow flying bird with huge amounts of lift.  The takeoff run at a max gross of 2550 is just 200 feet! Light takeoffs are shorter.



On Feb 26, 2014, at 8:35 PM, Dick & Vicki Sipp <rsipp(at)earthlink.net (rsipp(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:

[quote]    An item that has not been mentioned so far is the flap position for  landing.

  

 With a forward cg (solo or two light front seat passengers) a half flap  landing can be more comfortable, full up trim probably not required in this  configuration.

  

 I use full flaps on landing 95% of the time.  I always have 15 lbs. or  so in the back of the baggage compartment. This does require (in my airplane)  full up trim and about 2-3 pounds aft stick pressure to hold 65-70 KIAS on  final.  Full aft stick on roll out to hold the nose off does not require  unusual aft pressure.

  

 I rigged the elevator as best I could to the factory spec limits. Standard  4 point harness, no crotch strap (control stop is limiting). I have always felt  a concern for any airplane that had something limiting the controls other than  the design stops (i.e. panel or other obstruction).  All of the airplanes  will be different to a degree based on empty CG.

  

 Oh, on takeoff like Van says, I use half flap on all the RVs.  It’s  cool to get off the runway before anybody else accept the Alaska bush guys.<wlEmoticon-smilewithtongueout[1].png>

  

  

 Dick Sipp

 RV4 750 hours sold

 RV12 50 hours built for friend

 RV10 530 hours and counting

  

  

    

  From: David Clifford (davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net) 

 Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 11:19 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Elevator Limits

  



   Mine were adjusted per plans when I  built.   I am in Phase 1 testing and found last week when I was loaded  up forward CG, I had trouble getting the nose up in the landing flair.  I  used full up elevator trim to help but still landed three point.  Part of  the reason is I have short legs and like the seat track pin in the third  position aft of front.  With the big rotary knob on the Crow seat belt  harness, the stick grip hits that first and can not go to the full aft stop  limit.  I adjusted the control tube for more nose up authority in this  position however I am going to come up with pedal extensions to get the seat  further back. 



  

   From:  "Sean Stephens" <sean(at)stephensville.com (sean(at)stephensville.com)>

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014  10:49:11 PM

Subject: Elevator Limits

  

--> RV10-List message posted by: Sean Stephens  <sean(at)stephensville.com>

  

I'm in the process of adjusting my pushrods and elevator stops  for panel 

clearance and travel limits.  I've reviewed all the archived  posts on 

adding stops and other techniques for getting panel  clearance.  I think 

I have a good handle on that.

  

What I was curious about is the travel limits of the  elevator.  In 

particular the elevator up limits.  I assume that  because of the nose 

heavy aspect of the RV-10 that one would want to make  sure that the up 

travel limit of the elevator is at the higher end of the  limits?  I'm 

imagining that with the loading at the forward most CG  you'd want max 

throw there for landing flare?

  

I know I am going to have to add a stop to prevent panel  interference, 

but as that only effects the down travel, as long as I am at  or above 

the elevator down limit of 20 degrees I should be fine?  I'm  imagining 

the down limit being important for stall recovery and with the  

relatively easy stall recovery of the rv-10 that the lower limit of 20  

degrees is ok?

  

So long story short, is it better to be at the higher side of  the up 

elevator limits and ok to be at the lower side of the down  limits?

  

-Sean #40303 (light at the end of the tunnel phase)

 

  

  

  



  



 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	






 [b]

davidsoutpost(at)comcast.
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:17 pm Post subject: Elevator Limits

No Kidding.  This is phase one TESTING!  

From: "Justin Jones" <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 11:57:04 PM

Subject: Re: Elevator Limits

Has anyone looked at adding ballast back by the tail? or how about moving the battery further aft?  Seems that this issue can also be remedied with a further aft CG.  Even a LB or two ballast in the tail can make a HUGE difference!  Obviously do the W&B calculations, but you may be able to add a negligible amount of weight to the airframe in the tail section and make it work for you. I am sure it has much more docile handling when the CG is further aft.

Safe flying!

On Feb 26, 2014, at 7:19 PM, David Clifford <davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net (davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Mine were adjusted per plans when I built.   I am in Phase 1 testing and found last week when I was loaded up forward CG, I had trouble getting the nose up in the landing flair.  I used full up elevator trim to help but still landed three point.  Part of the reason is I have short legs and like the seat track pin in the third position aft of front.  With the big rotary knob on the Crow seat belt harness, the stick grip hits that first and can not go to the full aft stop limit.  I adjusted the control tube for more nose up authority in this position however I am going to come up with pedal extensions to get the seat further back. 

From: "Sean Stephens" <sean(at)stephensville.com (sean(at)stephensville.com)>

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 10:49:11 PM

Subject: Elevator Limits

--> RV10-List message posted by: Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com>

I'm in the process of adjusting my pushrods and elevator stops for panel 

clearance and travel limits.  I've reviewed all the archived posts on 

adding stops and other techniques for getting panel clearance.  I think 

I have a good handle on that.

What I was curious about is the travel limits of the elevator.  In 

particular the elevator up limits.  I assume that because of the nose 

heavy aspect of the RV-10 that one would want to make sure that the up 

travel limit of the elevator is at the higher end of the limits?  I'm 

imagining that with the loading at the forward most CG you'd want max 

throw there for landing flare?

I know I am going to have to add a stop to prevent panel interference, 

but as that only effects the down travel, as long as I am at or above 

the elevator down limit of 20 degrees I should be fine?  I'm imagining 

the down limit being important for stall recovery and with the 

relatively easy stall recovery of the rv-10 that the lower limit of 20 

degrees is ok?

So long story short, is it better to be at the higher side of the up 

elevator limits and ok to be at the lower side of the down limits?

-Sean #40303 (light at the end of the tunnel phase)

 	  Quote: 	

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

get="_blank" data-mce-href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

ta-mce-href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

_blank" data-mce-href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 [quote][b]

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:31 pm Post subject: Re: Elevator Limits

I have the seat in the second from the front notch, and aft stick is limited by the control stop - not me or the seat belt. Anything limiting control throw is just not acceptable to me.



I carry 20 lbs of water in the baggage area when flying solo. Doubles as emergency supply, and easy to pour out if I take on rear seat passengers.



Always check c.g. at zero fuel. If you're at the limit at takeoff you'll be out of limits on landing. Vans just gives you an average moment arm for the front seats, but I calculate cg using the actual seat location.



BTW, not trimming full nose up will give you a bit more nose up elevator authority; of course, it will take more force on the stick.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:53 am Post subject: Elevator Limits

Like so many others with custom panels, I had panel interference as 

well.  Why wouldn't the preferred approach be to modify the stick (or 

panel) so that you have full stop to stop travel? (I know you aren't 

asking this but had to say it).



Anyway, I've flown at both ends of the CG range.  I have more pitch down 

authority than I need in any maneuver I can imagine. With the CG at the 

forward limit and full flaps, I can land, power off, with the stick at 

the limit though the forces become so high that the moment I hit the 

stop is hard to detect.  When trimmed for final approach, pitch forces 

in the flare go from light to very heavy in a nose heavy configuration.  

A perfect setup in my estimation.



This was quite satisfying after flying my old Maule.  In the Maule, when 

forward loaded (nothing in back), it was easy to run out of pitch 

authority in a power off flare.  A bit of power was required to arrest a 

slow and steep approach or else.   Not a good situation - definitely a 

dark spot in it's flying qualities.   Not so in the '10.  So I'd say you 

need full pitch up authority.



On 2/26/2014 10:49 PM, Sean Stephens wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I'm in the process of adjusting my pushrods and elevator stops for 

 panel clearance and travel limits.  I've reviewed all the archived 

 posts on adding stops and other techniques for getting panel 

 clearance.  I think I have a good handle on that.



 What I was curious about is the travel limits of the elevator.  In 

 particular the elevator up limits.  I assume that because of the nose 

 heavy aspect of the RV-10 that one would want to make sure that the up 

 travel limit of the elevator is at the higher end of the limits?  I'm 

 imagining that with the loading at the forward most CG you'd want max 

 throw there for landing flare?



 I know I am going to have to add a stop to prevent panel interference, 

 but as that only effects the down travel, as long as I am at or above 

 the elevator down limit of 20 degrees I should be fine?  I'm imagining 

 the down limit being important for stall recovery and with the 

 relatively easy stall recovery of the rv-10 that the lower limit of 20 

 degrees is ok?



 So long story short, is it better to be at the higher side of the up 

 elevator limits and ok to be at the lower side of the down limits?



 -Sean #40303 (light at the end of the tunnel phase)

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:27 am Post subject: Elevator Limits

Since I'm still building my comment may       not be -10 specific.  I agree with Bill .... how many of us need       full forward stick (panel or no panel)?  I hope none of us will       try an outside loop or fly inverted in an airplane that's not       certified for aerobatics.  Bending the stick so it can hit the       forward stop instead of the panel has been discussed here before.        But why do that???  Heavy nose is a reality so why not move that       'unusable down travel' to the up travel, keeping the full range of       elevator travel?  What, if any, downsides are there when doing       that???  I have to admit to using all the available stick motion       in my Pitts but I don't plan on flying my -10 like that!!!!    

       Linn

       

       On 2/27/2014 7:52 AM, Bill Watson wrote:

     

     [quote]-->       RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson       <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)       

       

       Like so many others with custom panels, I had panel interference       as well.  Why wouldn't the preferred approach be to modify the       stick (or panel) so that you have full stop to stop travel? (I       know you aren't asking this but had to say it).       

       

       Anyway, I've flown at both ends of the CG range.  I have more       pitch down authority than I need in any maneuver I can imagine.       With the CG at the forward limit and full flaps, I can land, power       off, with the stick at the limit though the forces become so high       that the moment I hit the stop is hard to detect.  When trimmed       for final approach, pitch forces in the flare go from light to       very heavy in a nose heavy configuration.  A perfect setup in my       estimation.       

       

       This was quite satisfying after flying my old Maule.  In the       Maule, when forward loaded (nothing in back), it was easy to run       out of pitch authority in a power off flare.  A bit of power was       required to arrest a slow and steep approach or else.   Not a good       situation - definitely a dark spot in it's flying qualities.   Not       so in the '10.  So I'd say you need full pitch up authority.       

       

       On 2/26/2014 10:49 PM, Sean Stephens wrote:       

        	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: Sean         Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com> (sean(at)stephensville.com)         

         

         I'm in the process of adjusting my pushrods and elevator stops         for panel clearance and travel limits.  I've reviewed all the         archived posts on adding stops and other techniques for getting         panel clearance.  I think I have a good handle on that.         

         

         What I was curious about is the travel limits of the elevator.          In particular the elevator up limits.  I assume that because of         the nose heavy aspect of the RV-10 that one would want to make         sure that the up travel limit of the elevator is at the higher         end of the limits?  I'm imagining that with the loading at the         forward most CG you'd want max throw there for landing flare?         

         

         I know I am going to have to add a stop to prevent panel         interference, but as that only effects the down travel, as long         as I am at or above the elevator down limit of 20 degrees I         should be fine?  I'm imagining the down limit being important         for stall recovery and with the relatively easy stall recovery         of the rv-10 that the lower limit of 20 degrees is ok?         

         

         So long story short, is it better to be at the higher side of         the up elevator limits and ok to be at the lower side of the         down limits?         

         

         -Sean #40303 (light at the end of the tunnel phase)         

         

       	
       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       -----       

       No virus found in this message.       

       Checked by AVG - www.avg.com       

       02/26/14       

       

       

     [b]

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:21 am Post subject: Re: Elevator Limits

The more ballast in the baggage compartment, the better mine flies; but there is a limit, of course. I have started using half flaps for landing and it is much better than full flaps - when it comes to trim & stick issues. More importantly, if you have to do a go-around, you're not frantically trimming like you would with full flaps.

But back to the original issue. I would not "bend" the stick. Make the panel clear the stick, first. Then do what you have to do with the elevator stop to make it so. You will never use the forward limit, but that panicky near-miss could find you pushing the stick under the panel; you don't want it caught.



John

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:15 am Post subject: Elevator Limits

Just to be clear, I am in favor of bending the stick or modifying the 

panel so that the full down stop can be hit without any interference.  

While I don't see a situation where that is needed, I'd prefer to have 

the throw as specified in the design.

Bending the stick (which I did) is a simple solution to retaining full 

throw, which I find very acceptable.

Panel modification, the root cause of this issue, is also an acceptable 

solution.

Panel interference at the forward limit is unacceptable.

But all of that is just my thinking and not necessarily well informed 

thinking.

On 2/27/2014 7:52 AM, Bill Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Like so many others with custom panels, I had panel interference as 

 well.  Why wouldn't the preferred approach be to modify the stick (or 

 panel) so that you have full stop to stop travel? (I know you aren't 

 asking this but had to say it).

 Anyway, I've flown at both ends of the CG range.  I have more pitch 

 down authority than I need in any maneuver I can imagine. With the CG 

 at the forward limit and full flaps, I can land, power off, with the 

 stick at the limit though the forces become so high that the moment I 

 hit the stop is hard to detect.  When trimmed for final approach, 

 pitch forces in the flare go from light to very heavy in a nose heavy 

 configuration.  A perfect setup in my estimation.

 This was quite satisfying after flying my old Maule.  In the Maule, 

 when forward loaded (nothing in back), it was easy to run out of pitch 

 authority in a power off flare.  A bit of power was required to arrest 

 a slow and steep approach or else.   Not a good situation - definitely 

 a dark spot in it's flying qualities.   Not so in the '10.  So I'd say 

 you need full pitch up authority.

 On 2/26/2014 10:49 PM, Sean Stephens wrote:

> 

>

> I'm in the process of adjusting my pushrods and elevator stops for 

> panel clearance and travel limits.  I've reviewed all the archived 

> posts on adding stops and other techniques for getting panel 

> clearance.  I think I have a good handle on that.

>

> What I was curious about is the travel limits of the elevator. In 

> particular the elevator up limits.  I assume that because of the nose 

> heavy aspect of the RV-10 that one would want to make sure that the 

> up travel limit of the elevator is at the higher end of the limits?  

> I'm imagining that with the loading at the forward most CG you'd want 

> max throw there for landing flare?

>

> I know I am going to have to add a stop to prevent panel 

> interference, but as that only effects the down travel, as long as I 

> am at or above the elevator down limit of 20 degrees I should be 

> fine?  I'm imagining the down limit being important for stall 

> recovery and with the relatively easy stall recovery of the rv-10 

> that the lower limit of 20 degrees is ok?

>

> So long story short, is it better to be at the higher side of the up 

> elevator limits and ok to be at the lower side of the down limits?

>

> -Sean #40303 (light at the end of the tunnel phase)

>

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schmoboy

Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 130

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:32 am Post subject: Elevator Limits

Just to be clear.  When I speak of adding stops I am not meaning adding 

stops to throw it under the Vans min spec'd degrees.



As far as bending the sticks, I tried that and ended up with the sticks 

too far in my and the co-pilots lap when full aft.  That presented other 

issues like hitting the trim hat switch with my stomach.  Not a desired 

event when in full flare for landing.



So, lets say I was able to achieve 30 degrees up and 20 degrees down on 

the elevator.  Both within specs.  Up at max and down at min.  Full 

panel clearance.  Sounds like that is ok for the way the -10 handles.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Bill Watson <mailto:Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>

 February 27, 2014 at 9:15 AM

 



 Just to be clear, I am in favor of bending the stick or modifying the 

 panel so that the full down stop can be hit without any interference.  

 While I don't see a situation where that is needed, I'd prefer to have 

 the throw as specified in the design.



 Bending the stick (which I did) is a simple solution to retaining full 

 throw, which I find very acceptable.



 Panel modification, the root cause of this issue, is also an 

 acceptable solution.



 Panel interference at the forward limit is unacceptable.



 But all of that is just my thinking and not necessarily well informed 

 thinking.

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:20 am Post subject: Elevator Limits

Yep, I'd say so based on my 400 hours so far.

On 2/27/2014 10:32 AM, Sean Stephens wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Just to be clear.  When I speak of adding stops I am not meaning 

 adding stops to throw it under the Vans min spec'd degrees.

 As far as bending the sticks, I tried that and ended up with the 

 sticks too far in my and the co-pilots lap when full aft.  That 

 presented other issues like hitting the trim hat switch with my 

 stomach.  Not a desired event when in full flare for landing.

 So, lets say I was able to achieve 30 degrees up and 20 degrees down 

 on the elevator.  Both within specs.  Up at max and down at min.  Full 

 panel clearance.  Sounds like that is ok for the way the -10 handles.

> Bill Watson <mailto:Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>

> February 27, 2014 at 9:15 AM

> 

>

> Just to be clear, I am in favor of bending the stick or modifying the 

> panel so that the full down stop can be hit without any 

> interference.  While I don't see a situation where that is needed, 

> I'd prefer to have the throw as specified in the design.

>

> Bending the stick (which I did) is a simple solution to retaining 

> full throw, which I find very acceptable.

>

> Panel modification, the root cause of this issue, is also an 

> acceptable solution.

>

> Panel interference at the forward limit is unacceptable.

>

> But all of that is just my thinking and not necessarily well informed 

> thinking.

>

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flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:20 am Post subject: Elevator Limits

On 2/27/2014 9:21 AM, johngoodman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The more ballast in the baggage compartment, the better mine flies; but there is a limit, of course. I have started using half flaps for landing and it is much better than full flaps - when it comes to trim & stick issues. More importantly, if you have to do a go-around, you're not frantically trimming like you would with full flaps.

 But back to the original issue. I would not "bend" the stick. Make the panel clear the stick, first. Then do what you have to do with the elevator stop to make it so. You will never use the forward limit, but that panicky near-miss could find you pushing the stick under the panel; you don't want it caught.

Which causes me to wonder why we don't shift the full elevator movement 
	


towards the up or aft limit instead of modifying everything ....

That seems so simple to me.

Linn

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 John



 --------

 #40572 Phase One complete in 2011





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419433#419433





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