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ChangDriver
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266
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 Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:52 pm Post subject: M 14 Oil Leak |
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A friends Yak has developed a significant oil leak. The mechanic who looked at it has suggested the leak is coming From the lower pushrods tubes. There is also suspicion that the internal engine pressure is above normal since he does not believe that the amount of oil seen leaking would only be from poor seals. The recommendation is to remove the engine form the plane to redo the seals on the pushrods tubes. The leaking only appears after the engine is warmed to operating temps.
Any suggestions from the community on other things to look for and methods to redo the pushrods tubes without removing the engine?
Does it seem reasonable that increased crankcase pressure might force oil out of this area of the engine?
Thanks,
Craig
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vindscreenmw(at)bigpond.c
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:18 am Post subject: M 14 Oil Leak |
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If the yak is a 52 make sure the pickup in the oil tank is not binding, causing increased crankcase pressure.
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Mar 8, 2014, at 2:52 PM, "ChangDriver" <capav8r(at)gmail.com> wrote:
A friends Yak has developed a significant oil leak. The mechanic who looked at it has suggested the leak is coming From the lower pushrods tubes. There is also suspicion that the internal engine pressure is above normal since he does not believe that the amount of oil seen leaking would only be from poor seals. The recommendation is to remove the engine form the plane to redo the seals on the pushrods tubes. The leaking only appears after the engine is warmed to operating temps.
Any suggestions from the community on other things to look for and methods to redo the pushrods tubes without removing the engine?
Does it seem reasonable that increased crankcase pressure might force oil out of this area of the engine?
Thanks,
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419967#419967
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:37 am Post subject: M 14 Oil Leak |
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Mark,
Why would a potentially binding oil pickup, which rotates 360 degrees inside the oil tank, cause increased crankcase pressure?
In my mind, if were binding to the point where the pickup was not submerged in the oil, oil pressure would be lost.
Dennis
From: Mark Willard <vindscreenmw(at)bigpond.com>
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 3:17 AM
Subject: Re: M 14 Oil Leak
--> Yak-List message posted by: Mark Willard <vindscreenmw(at)bigpond.com (vindscreenmw(at)bigpond.com)>
If the yak is a 52 make sure the pickup in the oil tank is not binding, causing increased crankcase pressure.
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Mar 8, 2014, at 2:52 PM, "ChangDriver" <capav8r(at)gmail.com (capav8r(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "ChangDriver" <capav8r(at)gmail.com (capav8r(at)gmail.com)>
A friends Yak has developed a significant oil leak. The mechanic who looked at it has suggested the leak is coming From the lower pushrods tubes. There is also suspicion that the internal engine pressure is above normal since he does not believe that the amount of oil seen leaking would only be from poor seals. The recommendation is to remove the engine form the plane to redo the seals on the pushrods tubes. The leaking only appears after the engine is warmed to operating temps.
Any suggestions from the community on other things to look for and methods to redo the pushrods tubes without removing the engine?
Does it seem reasonable that increased crankcase pressure might force oil out of this area of the engine?
Thanks,
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419967#419967
m/Navigator?Yak-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?p; --> http:========================http://www.matronics.co==================
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Dale
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:39 am Post subject: Re: M 14 Oil Leak |
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Get some ultraviolet oil additive. Clean the engine first. Look for leak
most likely valve cover misaligned or gaskets not seated and the prop air throwing it all over.
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:07 am Post subject: M 14 Oil Leak |
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I don' believe high oil pressure is the problem, else there would be leaks every where and not just the lower cylinders. BTW a cheap way to find oil leaks is baking soda. Clean the engine real good. Make sure its dry. Dust the baking soda over the suspected areas. Blow off the excess. Run the engine until its warm. Any oil leaks will turn the baking soda black. EPA will love you.
Having tried to stop a leak in the (What I call the tappet housing) this is NOT something you really want to do unless you are very familiar with the set up and what will happen if you should drop the roller and tappet into the case.
Under the tappet housing (this is the part that is held on to the case with 2 nut (9mm I think)) is an O ring.
To replace the O ring the housing has to be removed. Thus, you take off the valve cover. Remove the push rod. Take off the push rod tube, by loosing the the nut at the top and removing the hose at the bottom. NOTE: This may be the very thing that is causing the oil leak and replacing the hose will do it. (A thermo hose from "AutoZone" is the best for this and what we use on the big radials). Make sure the push rod tube is clean smooth and dry when replacing the hose. Also make sure the two nuts that hold the tappet housing to the case are tight.
BUT if the leak is definitely coming from under the tappet housing, I advise to leave it alone unless you really know what you are dealing with. The roller that follows the cam shaft, it's pin, spring are held in place by the tappet housing. The roller has a larger diameter that the opening in the case that the tappet housing fits in. Unlike a lot of US radial engine where you can pull out the whole tappet assembly though the housing, you can not on the M-14P.
AND if you can not hold on to the whole tappet, IT WILL FALL INTO THE CASE AND THERE IS NO WAY TO RETRIEVE IT. EXCEPT: remove the cowling, remove the prop, remove the prop governor and remove the nose section of the engine and than IF I remember correctly remove a case web to get to get to the cam shaft area where you will find the tappet assembly. This take a experienced M-14P mechanic a least 4 hours with the proper specialized tools.
There might be a specialized tool to do this, but I not aware of one. Maybe Jill or George Coy could comment on this. This not an easy task. I broke a pair of very expenvies bi-focal glasses, when they landed on the other side of my hangar, when because of slippery oily fingers, I realized I had dropped the tappet into the case, .
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:47 pm Post subject: M 14 Oil Leak |
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I concur with this, Jim.
It's not a good idea trying to replace those seals, unless you're very experienced.
We've tried to do this kind of a repair. First we exercised on an old engine.
As you say, there's a serious probability that you end up with dropping parts in the case. And then …
About the possible cause of leaking seals at the tappets (as you name them): engine overheating ?
Jan
Reply-To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Saturday 8 March 2014 17:07
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: Re: M 14 Oil Leak
I don' believe high oil pressure is the problem, else there would be leaks every where and not just the lower cylinders. BTW a cheap way to find oil leaks is baking soda. Clean the engine real good. Make sure its dry. Dust the baking soda over the suspected areas. Blow off the excess. Run the engine until its warm. Any oil leaks will turn the baking soda black. EPA will love you.
Having tried to stop a leak in the (What I call the tappet housing) this is NOT something you really want to do unless you are very familiar with the set up and what will happen if you should drop the roller and tappet into the case.
Under the tappet housing (this is the part that is held on to the case with 2 nut (9mm I think)) is an O ring.
To replace the O ring the housing has to be removed. Thus, you take off the valve cover. Remove the push rod. Take off the push rod tube, by loosing the the nut at the top and removing the hose at the bottom. NOTE: This may be the very thing that is causing the oil leak and replacing the hose will do it. (A thermo hose from "AutoZone" is the best for this and what we use on the big radials). Make sure the push rod tube is clean smooth and dry when replacing the hose. Also make sure the two nuts that hold the tappet housing to the case are tight.
BUT if the leak is definitely coming from under the tappet housing, I advise to leave it alone unless you really know what you are dealing with. The roller that follows the cam shaft, it's pin, spring are held in place by the tappet housing. The roller has a larger diameter that the opening in the case that the tappet housing fits in. Unlike a lot of US radial engine where you can pull out the whole tappet assembly though the housing, you can not on the M-14P.
AND if you can not hold on to the whole tappet, IT WILL FALL INTO THE CASE AND THERE IS NO WAY TO RETRIEVE IT. EXCEPT: remove the cowling, remove the prop, remove the prop governor and remove the nose section of the engine and than IF I remember correctly remove a case web to get to get to the cam shaft area where you will find the tappet assembly. This take a experienced M-14P mechanic a least 4 hours with the proper specialized tools.
There might be a specialized tool to do this, but I not aware of one. Maybe Jill or George Coy could comment on this. This not an easy task. I broke a pair of very expenvies bi-focal glasses, when they landed on the other side of my hangar, when because of slippery oily fingers, I realized I had dropped the tappet into the case, .
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:03 pm Post subject: M 14 Oil Leak |
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Actually, under the lifter body which is what Pappy is referring to, is an oval shaped paper gasket. Regardless of whether it is a paper gasket or an o-ring, follow Pappy's guidance because you WILL drop a roller and pin in the nose case. Then you will REALLY be upset! Ask Pappy. He knows quite well.
Dennis
From: """ <cjpilot710(at)aol.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M 14 Oil Leak
I don' believe high oil pressure is the problem, else there would be leaks every where and not just the lower cylinders. BTW a cheap way to find oil leaks is baking soda. Clean the engine real good. Make sure its dry. Dust the baking soda over the suspected areas. Blow off the excess. Run the engine until its warm. Any oil leaks will turn the baking soda black. EPA will love you.
Having tried to stop a leak in the (What I call the tappet housing) this is NOT something you really want to do unless you are very familiar with the set up and what will happen if you should drop the roller and tappet into the case.
Under the tappet housing (this is the part that is held on to the case with 2 nut (9mm I think)) is an O ring.
To replace the O ring the housing has to be removed. Thus, you take off the valve cover. Remove the push rod. Take off the push rod tube, by loosing the the nut at the top and removing the hose at the bottom. NOTE: This may be the very thing that is causing the oil leak and replacing the hose will do it. (A thermo hose from "AutoZone" is the best for this and what we use on the big radials). Make sure the push rod tube is clean smooth and dry when replacing the hose. Also make sure the two nuts that hold the tappet housing to the case are tight.
BUT if the leak is definitely coming from under the tappet housing, I advise to leave it alone unless you really know what you are dealing with. The roller that follows the cam shaft, it's pin, spring are held in place by the tappet housing. The roller has a larger diameter that the opening in the case that the tappet housing fits in. Unlike a lot of US radial engine where you can pull out the whole tappet assembly though the housing, you can not on the M-14P.
AND if you can not hold on to the whole tappet, IT WILL FALL INTO THE CASE AND THERE IS NO WAY TO RETRIEVE IT. EXCEPT: remove the cowling, remove the prop, remove the prop governor and remove the nose section of the engine and than IF I remember correctly remove a case web to get to get to the cam shaft area where you will find the tappet assembly. This take a experienced M-14P mechanic a least 4 hours with the proper specialized tools.
There might be a specialized tool to do this, but I not aware of one. Maybe Jill or George Coy could comment on this. This not an easy task. I broke a pair of very expenvies bi-focal glasses, when they landed on the other side of my hangar, when because of slippery oily fingers, I realized I had dropped the tappet into the case, .
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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vindscreenmw(at)bigpond.c
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:36 pm Post subject: M 14 Oil Leak |
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Dennis ,i understod that the pickup also had a vent that can become stuck, causing the crank pressure to become excessive and create oil leaks at the weakest points. Have had it happen on a 52.
Mark.
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 9, 2014, at 12:37 AM, "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote]Mark,
Why would a potentially binding oil pickup, which rotates 360 degrees inside the oil tank, cause increased crankcase pressure?
In my mind, if were binding to the point where the pickup was not submerged in the oil, oil pressure would be lost.
Dennis
From: Mark Willard <vindscreenmw(at)bigpond.com (vindscreenmw(at)bigpond.com)>
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 3:17 AM
Subject: Re: M 14 Oil Leak
--> Yak-List message posted by: Mark Willard <vindscreenmw(at)bigpond.com (vindscreenmw(at)bigpond.com)>
If the yak is a 52 make sure the pickup in the oil tank is not binding, causing increased crankcase pressure.
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Mar 8, 2014, at 2:52 PM, "ChangDriver" <capav8r(at)gmail.com (capav8r(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "ChangDriver" <capav8r(at)gmail.com (capav8r(at)gmail.com)>
A friends Yak has developed a significant oil leak. The mechanic who looked at it has suggested the leak is coming From the lower pushrods tubes. There is also suspicion that the internal engine pressure is above normal since he does not believe that the amount of oil seen leaking would only be from poor seals. The recommendation is to remove the engine form the plane to redo the seals on the pushrods tubes. The leaking only appears after the engine is warmed to operating temps.
Any suggestions from the community on other things to look for and methods to redo the pushrods tubes without removing the engine?
Does it seem reasonable that increased crankcase pressure might force oil out of this area of the engine?
Thanks,
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419967#419967
m/Navigator?Yak-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?p; --> http:========================http://www.matronics.co==================
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D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
"3D"courier" new,courier"="">[url=3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List"]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List[/url]
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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jblake207(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:01 am Post subject: M 14 Oil Leak |
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Not disputing the ultraviolet additive especially since I’ve never done used it, but a much easier and maybe less expensive way is to use baby powder. Clean the engine with soap and water as opposed to mineral spirits. I use purple power, but be sure to rinse completely… in fact, rinse three times since it is a very corrosive cleaner. The point of using soap as opposed to mineral spirits is to have a nice dry, oil free surface. With the cowling open, use a liberal amount of baby all over the engine, especially in areas you suspect are leaking. Close the cowling and ground run the engine for 15-20 minutes. I’d get it to operating temps. Then open the cowling and look for wet spots in the powder. A very simple and quite effective method of locating leaks. Afterwards, simply rinse the engine of any remaining baby powder.
JB
From: "Dale" <dale(at)frii.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 8:39:23 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: M 14 Oil Leak
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Dale" <dale(at)frii.com>
Get some ultraviolet oil additive. Clean the engine first. Look for leak
most likely valve cover misaligned or gaskets not seated and the prop air throwing it all over.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419975#419975
; -Mat===============
[quote][b]
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N13472(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:52 am Post subject: M 14 Oil Leak |
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An easier method of application is to use dry powder under arm deodorant in a spray can.
Tom Elliott
CJ-6A NX63727
777 Quartz Ave
PMB 7004
Sandy Valley NV
89019
Cell 541-297-5497
N13472(at)AOL.COM
Â
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jblake207(at)comcast.net
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 7:01 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: M 14 Oil Leak
Not disputing the ultraviolet additive especially since I’ve never done used it, but a much easier and maybe less expensive way is to use baby powder. Clean the engine with soap and water as opposed to mineral spirits. I use purple power, but be sure to rinse completely… in fact, rinse three times since it is a very corrosive cleaner. The point of using soap as opposed to mineral spirits is to have a nice dry, oil free surface. With the cowling open, use a liberal amount of baby all over the engine, especially in areas you suspect are leaking. Close the cowling and ground run the engine for 15-20 minutes. I’d get it to operating temps. Then open the cowling and look for wet spots in the powder. A very simple and quite effective method of locating leaks. Afterwards, simply rinse the engine of any remaining baby powder.
JB
From: "Dale" <dale(at)frii.com (dale(at)frii.com)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 8:39:23 AM
Subject: Re: M 14 Oil Leak
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Dale" <dale(at)frii.com (dale(at)frii.com)>
Get some ultraviolet oil additive. Clean the engine first. Look for leak
most likely valve cover misaligned or gaskets not seated and the prop air throwing it all over.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419975#419975
; -Mat===============
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
01234567
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4335 / 03/09/14
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ChangDriver
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:57 am Post subject: Re: M 14 Oil Leak |
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Just an update. It seems as though they have isolated it to the seals on the tappet covers on a lower cylinder. They have decided to try an aviation grade sealer to apply at the junction of the housing and the engine case.
BTW, the A&P did clean the engine and used power to locate the leak. The problem trying to eyeball this, as we all know, is the prop blows oil all over the place and it covers the bottom of the plane etc. The leak, from what is sounds, is pretty significant.
I'll let you all know how this goes....
Craig
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PS
Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 84
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:40 am Post subject: M 14 Oil Leak |
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The simplest answer is usually the correct answer.
Phil
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