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bferrell(at)123mail.net
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 Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:30 am Post subject: IFR Requirements (required vs. good to |
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Folks,
Regarding the wings coming off, I really don't think this is something that you
need to worry about - they're coming off if you hit something big. Although
I'm not familiar with the Glasair, I doubt it's substantially stronger than the
spar in a Cozy or Velocity, and I've gathered a fair amount of accident data
(and pictures) on my website (http://www.velocityxl.com/downloads.htm), and
getting the wings off isn't a big deal. Also, having read Pappy Boyington's
"Baa Baa Blacksheep", which included a story of a Corsair strafing a runway
pulling out too late and colliding with trees on both wings (and continuing to
fly) - both wings failed at the impact point, and I suspect it was designed
for some negative Gs. Not definitive, but some data to consider.
Brett
Quoting Mike <mlas(at)cox.net>:
[quote]
John,
It sounds like you have given this issue some thought. What is your
alternative plan when facing a stand of trees or a field of rock? I too
have thought about the same issue and have not been able to come up with
a better idea. One thing to remember is my primary point was that you
still has to be a landing and then you stop the plane. My thoughts are
to think of a formula 1 car which is strong like the Glassair. From my
direct examination of composite aircraft crashes at the site, the impact
into the ground is what seems to kill most of the pilots and not the
stop after the landing. Most of the crashes in composite airplanes are
burners, lots of little pieces, or almost no breakup damage. The
burners are strait forward and mixed, but the airplanes that breakup are
all high velocity impacts.
Mike
--
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ogoodwin(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:17 am Post subject: IFR Requirements (required vs. good to |
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I think the concern is that in some aircraft the wing is one piece, tip to
tip. In that case the wing will probably come off...in one piece...but with
catastrophic results for the person sitting on or behind the main spar,
especially if the seat structure and/or harness is fastened to the wing
structure. If the wing(s) come off and take the seat structure and occupant
with it, it could be a real bad thing.
---
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deej(at)deej.net
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: IFR Requirements (required vs. good to |
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Olen Goodwin wrote:
| Quote: |
<ogoodwin(at)comcast.net>
I think the concern is that in some aircraft the wing is one piece,
tip to tip. In that case the wing will probably come off...in one
piece...but with catastrophic results for the person sitting on or
behind the main spar, especially if the seat structure and/or harness
is fastened to the wing structure. If the wing(s) come off and take
the seat structure and occupant with it, it could be a real bad thing.
|
In a Glasair the control stick comes up directly out of the wing.
If the one-piece wing does become stationary while the rest of the
fuselage moves forward, it is going to be mighty painful in the tender bits.
However, I'm not sure hitting a tree straight-on with the fuselage
is going to be much better...
-Dj
Glasair 1 FT
do not archive
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118
http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
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ogoodwin(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:50 am Post subject: IFR Requirements (required vs. good to |
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Same thing on my SAL Mustang, I think the wing would still be at the point
of contact along with the seat and....
The solution would seem to be avoiding large, heavy stationary objects:-)
---
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Mark Phillips in TN
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia, TN
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:04 am Post subject: IFR Requirements (required vs. good to |
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In a message dated 6/21/06 10:22:31 AM Central Daylight Time,
ogoodwin(at)comcast.net writes:
| Quote: | If the wing(s) come off and take the seat structure and occupant
with it, it could be a real bad thing.
|
Hop over to the RV-list archive and hunt for message from Grey Young dated
July 14, 2001. There were some pictures posted shortly thereafter that IIRC
showed that the spar, though bent, had remained intact with the wing ripped maybe
30-40 degrees from normal. Bear in mind that this is the earlier spar design
(RV-6) and I would surmise that the design of the newer spars would behave
quite differently. It is a harrowing story and we are truly lucky Greg was able
to relate the tale. Pretty harrowing...
Here's a direct link if it works:
http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=102136041?KEYS=greg_&_young?LISTNAME=RV?HITNUMBER=217?SERIAL=10492418029X?SHOWBUTTONS=YES
Mark do not archive
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_________________
From The PossumWorks... |
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gyoung
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Republic of Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: IFR Requirements (required vs. good to |
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I was debating weighing in on this topic since it's not 'lectric oriented but since you brought it up... I am still here as testimony to the ability to disipate energy thru the bending, breaking or shedding of parts. You do not want a significant vertical impact. I had > 1500fpm vertical but was fortunate enough to judge the "flare" well enough to splat the airplane and crush the gear and seat ribs without doing too much damage to my back. Hitting the tree disipated a lot of energy by bending the spar 90 deg and scissoring the wing and fuselage about 40 deg. Seemingly every piece of metal bent - all using energy that did not go into me. The wing tried to wrap itself around the tree causing the hulk to rotate around the tree and then pop off - all of which eased the deceleration.
Even the strongest spars are not designed for the fore and aft forces of hitting a tree horizontally. They WILL bend or rip off - absorbing energy that your body won't have to and hopefully allowing a survivable deceleration. The sudden stop, either vertical or horizontal, will kill you. Horizontal deceleration even over very short distances can save you. And fly it as far into the crash as possible. I changed my ground path after the splat enough to keep from hitting the tree head on. Luck helps but you can make your own luck. Save your butt, not the airplane.
Regards,
Greg Young - Houston (DWH)
RV-6 N6GY ...project Phoenix
Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A
Sent: Wed 06/21/06 12:59 PM
In a message dated 6/21/06 10:22:31 AM Central Daylight Time,
ogoodwin(at)comcast.net writes:
| Quote: | If the wing(s) come off and take the seat structure and occupant
with it, it could be a real bad thing.
|
Hop over to the RV-list archive and hunt for message from Grey Young dated
July 14, 2001. There were some pictures posted shortly thereafter that IIRC
showed that the spar, though bent, had remained intact with the wing ripped maybe
30-40 degrees from normal. Bear in mind that this is the earlier spar design
(RV-6) and I would surmise that the design of the newer spars would behave
quite differently. It is a harrowing story and we are truly lucky Greg was able
to relate the tale. Pretty harrowing...
Here's a direct link if it works:
http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=102136041?KEYS=greg_&_young?LISTNAME=RV?HITNUMBER=217?SERIAL=10492418029X?SHOWBUTTONS=YES
Mark do not archive
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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emrath(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: IFR Requirements (required vs. good to |
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There was an "incident" a while back at my home plate where a Glasair ground
looped and ran off the runway into the grass. The right gear collapsed and
took out the right wing panel, gear, fuel tank, part of the fuselage and
firewall. Was not pretty. The plane was salvaged and there were some local
quys that thought they could rebuild it. I have no idea if that is possible,
but I don't think a ground loop on a RV would have been damaged as serious.
Just my 2 Cents.
Marty
Time: 07:30:25 AM PST US
--> <bferrell(at)123mail.net>
Folks,
Regarding the wings coming off, I really don't think this is something that
you need to worry about - they're coming off if you hit something big.
Although I'm not familiar with the Glasair, I doubt it's substantially
stronger than the spar in a Cozy or Velocity, and I've gathered a fair
amount of accident data (and pictures) on my website
(http://www.velocityxl.com/downloads.htm), and getting the wings off isn't a
big deal. Also, having read Pappy Boyington's "Baa Baa Blacksheep", which
included a story of a Corsair strafing a runway pulling out too late and
colliding with trees on both wings (and continuing to
fly) - both wings failed at the impact point, and I suspect it was designed
for some negative Gs. Not definitive, but some data to consider.
Brett
Quoting Mike <mlas(at)cox.net>:
[quote]
John,
It sounds like you have given this issue some thought. What is your
alternative plan when facing a stand of trees or a field of rock? I
too have thought about the same issue and have not been able to come
up with a better idea. One thing to remember is my primary point was
that you still has to be a landing and then you stop the plane. My
thoughts are to think of a formula 1 car which is strong like the
Glassair. From my direct examination of composite aircraft crashes at
the site, the impact into the ground is what seems to kill most of the
pilots and not the stop after the landing. Most of the crashes in
composite airplanes are burners, lots of little pieces, or almost no
breakup damage. The burners are strait forward and mixed, but the
airplanes that breakup are all high velocity impacts.
Mike
--
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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