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Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

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tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:30 pm Post subject: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

Gidday,

Whilst working on my panel I was wondering if anyone has buried their fuses in a hatch within the parcel shelf? Sure, it wouldn't be accessible, but, if you didn't plan on gaining access and built the aircraft accordingly, maybe within the parcel shelf floor might be a good little location?

Any thoughts?

Regards

Tony Renshaw

Sent from my iPad

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 796

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:02 pm Post subject: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

Hi Tony 

 	You can have a look through my 3 pages of instrument module: 

 	http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27305 

 	I have a sub panel that has fuses. 

 	  

 	Ron Parigoris    [quote][b]

rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:28 am Post subject: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

On 7 Apr 2014, at 01:26, Tony Renshaw wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Whilst working on my panel I was wondering if anyone has buried their fuses in a hatch within the parcel shelf? Sure, it wouldn't be accessible, but, if you didn't plan on gaining access and built the aircraft accordingly, maybe within the parcel shelf floor might be a good little location?


	


Tony - yes, that's what I have done. See:



http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/shelf_cut.php



for the hole I hacked in the parcel shelf, with the fuseblocks placed to show how they will fit.



in friendship



Rowland



| Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:17 am Post subject: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

Tony & Rowland,  I have a slightly different philosophical

approach to this question. A fuse may well go as part of

some in air failure just possibly accompanied by fire or

smoke. Time spent working out what is happening threatens

your safety. As with an engine failure serious distraction

and stress can lead to speed decay and a stall/spin

accident. So I prefer my fusing system to be out where it

is immediately obvious what has blown and for this reason

I recommend switchable circuit breakers, all labelled and

readily visible. They have the added benefit of readily

allowing switching off of circuits to deal with

emergencies such as regulator failure. Regards, David

Joyce, G-XSDJ

On Mon, 7 Apr 2014 09:27:30 +0100

  Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>

 

 On 7 Apr 2014, at 01:26, Tony Renshaw wrote:

 

> Whilst working on my panel I was wondering if anyone has 

>buried their fuses in a hatch within the parcel shelf? 

>Sure, it wouldn't be accessible, but, if you didn't plan 

>on gaining access and built the aircraft accordingly, 

>maybe within the parcel shelf floor might be a good little 

>location?

 

 Tony - yes, that's what I have done. See:

 

 http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/shelf_cut.php

 

 for the hole I hacked in the parcel shelf, with the 

fuseblocks placed to show how they will fit.

 

 in friendship

 

 Rowland

 

 | Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' 

...

 | <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> 

          http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

 | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland 

Carson

 | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

 

 

 

Admin.

IMG_0753.JPG

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Filesize:

2.93 MB

Viewed:

9789 Time(s)

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:04 am Post subject: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

David,



You make a very good point.  The only electrical incident I have experienced on my aircraft was a generator  overvolt trip just after coasting out over the Channel.  After a careful check and a reset of the circuit breaker I was able to proceed without any drama.  The alternative, with a fuse not readily accessible, would have been a turn back to the airfield/refiling flight plan, revised GAR arrival time etc. etc.



The safety aspects are even more important..



Regards



Brian



--

rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:04 am Post subject: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

On 7 Apr 2014, at 11:03, Brian Davies wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   You make a very good point.  The only electrical incident I have experienced on my aircraft was a generator  overvolt trip just after coasting out over the Channel.  After a careful check and a reset of the circuit breaker I was able to proceed without any drama.  The alternative, with a fuse not readily accessible, would have been a turn back to the airfield/refiling flight plan, revised GAR arrival time etc. etc.

 

 The safety aspects are even more important..


	


[quote] --

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:43 am Post subject: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

Rowland, I don't dispute the electrical safety. It is just 

the distraction of having to dig around to make a 

diagnosis and alter any circuitry rather than having it 

plain obvious, right under your nose. I am strongly of the 

opinion that anything that increases the 

workload/distraction factor in an emergency is a 

thoroughly bad thing and leads to a lot of stall/spin 

deaths.

Regards, David

On Mon, 7 Apr 2014 12:03:57 +0100

  Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:

[quote] 

<rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>

 

 On 7 Apr 2014, at 11:03, Brian Davies wrote:

 

> You make a very good point.  The only electrical 

>incident I have experienced on my aircraft was a 

>generator  overvolt trip just after coasting out over the 

>Channel.  After a careful check and a reset of the 

>circuit breaker I was able to proceed without any drama. 

> The alternative, with a fuse not readily accessible, 

>would have been a turn back to the airfield/refiling 

>flight plan, revised GAR arrival time etc. etc.

> 

> The safety aspects are even more important..

 

 

 

> --

nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:25 am Post subject: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

This is an interesting discussion.

If the aircraft wiring has been well designed and installed and if the 

correctly rated breaker (or fuse) has been installed to protect the 

desired equipment,  then it is surely reasonable to suppose that the 

only time the breaker would pop, or the fuse blow, is if something has 

failed. No amount of in-flight fiddling is going to repair a shorted or 

broken wire, nor replace a failed capacitor, resistor or semiconductor 

(dare I mention Rotax/Ducati Regulator? ..... best not perhaps).

Re-setting a popped breaker without identifying why it popped is surely 

asking for trouble.  Do you wait for the first signs of smoke before 

finally getting the message?



The only thing a pilot can do is recognise that a particular service has 

gone down and, depending on flight criticality, divert or continue.

The only time to investigate the problem will be when you are safely 

down as the cause will almost invariably be in an inaccessible place.



Popped breakers are easy to spot, but fuses are not immediately obvious 

- unless you have chosen the ones that Rowland has used which 

incorporate a "failure" LED.

This does of course require them to be mounted where you can see them 

......which brings us back to the OP.



Nigel

On 07/04/2014 13:42, David Joyce wrote:

[quote] 

 <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>



 Rowland, I don't dispute the electrical safety. It is just the 

 distraction of having to dig around to make a diagnosis and alter any 

 circuitry rather than having it plain obvious, right under your nose. 

 I am strongly of the opinion that anything that increases the 

 workload/distraction factor in an emergency is a thoroughly bad thing 

 and leads to a lot of stall/spin deaths.

 Regards, David

 On Mon, 7 Apr 2014 12:03:57 +0100

  Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:

> 

> <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>

>

> On 7 Apr 2014, at 11:03, Brian Davies wrote:

>

>> You make a very good point.  The only electrical incident I have 

>> experienced on my aircraft was a generator  overvolt trip just after 

>> coasting out over the Channel.  After a careful check and a reset of 

>> the circuit breaker I was able to proceed without any drama. The 

>> alternative, with a fuse not readily accessible, would have been a 

>> turn back to the airfield/refiling flight plan, revised GAR arrival 

>> time etc. etc.

>>

>> The safety aspects are even more important..

>

>> --

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:02 am Post subject: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

On Apr 7, 2014, at 4:03 AM, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fuseorcb.html

 

 http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fusvsbkr.html

 

 http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fusvbkr2.html


	


Rowland,



Thank you for the links to the Nuckolls articles which I haven’t read for a long time; they have been primary references for a guy like myself who’s knowledge, experience, and understanding of all things electric was close to zero when I began my project.



I’m very sympathetic to the Nuckolls philosophy(s) and have attempted to incorporate them at just about every turn, though some of his thinking may initially lead to component arrangements which seem counterintuitive.



You won’t find me re-setting CBs or fumbling around w/ replacement fuses while in flight.



FWIW, I’ve located two fuse blocks on the  floor of the instrument panel module behind the COM sub panel; one buss is for engine critical circuits for my (totally electrically-dependent) MPEFI engine, and the other is for “endurance buss” circuits…both busses have a primary feed thru my EXP 2 Bus (w/ it’s multiple rocker switches controlling non-essential circuits) and an alternate feed direct from either battery.



At the first sign of in-flight electrical problems, my “Plan B” requires the flipping of one toggle to energize the alternate feeds for both my endurance buss and my engine buss; killing the master switch; and, with ample battery amp hours for the predetermined loads, proceeding to my destination without breaking a sweat…at least, that is the plan...



I offer these thoughts as simply describing how I’ve chosen to approach this issue, not as a challenge to other approaches or philosophies.

In fact, I relish these discussions and find enormous value in reading how much-respected and experienced builders have addressed these issues…more than once they’ve resulted in my reconsideration of previous solutions.



Fred

tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:52 am Post subject: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

Thanks to everyone re input on fuses. I've got a bunch to think about.

Regards 

Tony Renshaw

Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 7 Apr 2014, at 2:16 am, "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> wrote:

 

 Tony & Rowland,  I have a slightly different philosophical

 approach to this question. A fuse may well go as part of

 some in air failure just possibly accompanied by fire or

 smoke. Time spent working out what is happening threatens

 your safety. As with an engine failure serious distraction

 and stress can lead to speed decay and a stall/spin

 accident. So I prefer my fusing system to be out where it

 is immediately obvious what has blown and for this reason

 I recommend switchable circuit breakers, all labelled and

 readily visible. They have the added benefit of readily

 allowing switching off of circuits to deal with

 emergencies such as regulator failure. Regards, David

 Joyce, G-XSDJ

 

 

 On Mon, 7 Apr 2014 09:27:30 +0100

 Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:

> 

>> On 7 Apr 2014, at 01:26, Tony Renshaw wrote:

>> Whilst working on my panel I was wondering if anyone has buried their fuses in a hatch within the parcel shelf? Sure, it wouldn't be accessible, but, if you didn't plan on gaining access and built the aircraft accordingly, maybe within the parcel shelf floor might be a good little location?

> Tony - yes, that's what I have done. See:

> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/shelf_cut.php

> for the hole I hacked in the parcel shelf, with the fuseblocks placed to show how they will fit.

> in friendship

> Rowland

> | Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

> | <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>          http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

> | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

> | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson

> Admin.

 <IMG_0753.JPG>

dpark748(at)me.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:14 am Post subject: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

Nigel, 

Would i be correct, in the event of regulator failure, i am going to see?

1.over/under voltage on volt meter ?

2.main cb break?

3.Ameter indication - discharge?

Action - switch off alternator? And any unnecessary drain on battery.

Dave Park

Sent from my iPhone

[quote] On 7 Apr 2014, at 15:24, Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk> wrote:

 This is an interesting discussion.

 If the aircraft wiring has been well designed and installed and if the correctly rated breaker (or fuse) has been installed to protect the desired equipment,  then it is surely reasonable to suppose that the only time the breaker would pop, or the fuse blow, is if something has failed. No amount of in-flight fiddling is going to repair a shorted or broken wire, nor replace a failed capacitor, resistor or semiconductor (dare I mention Rotax/Ducati Regulator? ..... best not perhaps).

 Re-setting a popped breaker without identifying why it popped is surely asking for trouble.  Do you wait for the first signs of smoke before finally getting the message?

 The only thing a pilot can do is recognise that a particular service has gone down and, depending on flight criticality, divert or continue.

 The only time to investigate the problem will be when you are safely down as the cause will almost invariably be in an inaccessible place.

 Popped breakers are easy to spot, but fuses are not immediately obvious - unless you have chosen the ones that Rowland has used which incorporate a "failure" LED.

 This does of course require them to be mounted where you can see them .......which brings us back to the OP.

 Nigel

> On 07/04/2014 13:42, David Joyce wrote:

> 

> 

> Rowland, I don't dispute the electrical safety. It is just the distraction of having to dig around to make a diagnosis and alter any circuitry rather than having it plain obvious, right under your nose. I am strongly of the opinion that anything that increases the workload/distraction factor in an emergency is a thoroughly bad thing and leads to a lot of stall/spin deaths.

> Regards, David

> 

> 

> On Mon, 7 Apr 2014 12:03:57 +0100

> Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>> 

>> 

>>> On 7 Apr 2014, at 11:03, Brian Davies wrote:

>>> 

>>> You make a very good point.  The only electrical incident I have experienced on my aircraft was a generator  overvolt trip just after coasting out over the Channel.  After a careful check and a reset of the circuit breaker I was able to proceed without any drama. The alternative, with a fuse not readily accessible, would have been a turn back to the airfield/refiling flight plan, revised GAR arrival time etc. etc.

>>> 

>>> The safety aspects are even more important..

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>> --

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:02 am Post subject: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

Hi Rowland



As an ex- CAA Licenced Avionic engineer I shudder at the use of Faston spade

terminals instead of ring tags and hate soldered joints and love crimps, but

many homebuilt aircraft  have these features and fly quite safely.

Fuses vs circuit breakers is another one for the list. The joy of home

building is that we can make our own choices in this area, after carrying

out due diligence, and I respect your choice.  



Beware- someone will now point out that fuses and circuit breakers are old

hat and we should all be using power control modules to monitor and protect

our aircraft electrics.



The subject of replacing fuses or resetting circuit breakers in flight is

also well covered in training manuals and flight manuals of certified

aircraft.  Again, we can do our study and make our choices and be content

with our personal decisions.



Best regards



Brian



--

nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:57 am Post subject: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

Dave,



The unit is a combination of rectifier and regulator.  The issues you 

experience will depend on which component in which part of the circuit 

fails.

There are (as far as I can identify - though I'm sure better qualified 

contributors will correct me if I'm wrong) three modes of failure.

If you are really lucky, it will fail open-circuit, in which case 

everything continues to work fine but your battery discharges. The 

ammeter will show a discharge.

If you're not so lucky, the regulator fails and sends unregulated DC to 

your battery. This will eventually boil dry, get very hot and may 

distort and if no over-voltage protection is fitted, take out your avionics.

If you're really unlucky and the rectifier section fails, this can 

squirt unrectified AC into the main bus and kill just about everything 

except your ignition.

Which CB breaks depends entirely on how your aircraft was wired up and 

it is these failure modes that have caused such spirited debate when 

discussing "the right way" to wire up a panel.



Nigel



On 07/04/2014 18:13, david park wrote:

[quote] 



 Nigel,

 Would i be correct, in the event of regulator failure, i am going to see?

 1.over/under voltage on volt meter ?

 2.main cb break?

 3.Ameter indication - discharge?



 Action - switch off alternator? And any unnecessary drain on battery.

 Dave Park

 Sent from my iPhone

> On 7 Apr 2014, at 15:24, Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk> wrote:

>

> 

>

> This is an interesting discussion.

> If the aircraft wiring has been well designed and installed and if the correctly rated breaker (or fuse) has been installed to protect the desired equipment,  then it is surely reasonable to suppose that the only time the breaker would pop, or the fuse blow, is if something has failed. No amount of in-flight fiddling is going to repair a shorted or broken wire, nor replace a failed capacitor, resistor or semiconductor (dare I mention Rotax/Ducati Regulator? ..... best not perhaps).

> Re-setting a popped breaker without identifying why it popped is surely asking for trouble.  Do you wait for the first signs of smoke before finally getting the message?

>

> The only thing a pilot can do is recognise that a particular service has gone down and, depending on flight criticality, divert or continue.

> The only time to investigate the problem will be when you are safely down as the cause will almost invariably be in an inaccessible place.

>

> Popped breakers are easy to spot, but fuses are not immediately obvious - unless you have chosen the ones that Rowland has used which incorporate a "failure" LED.

> This does of course require them to be mounted where you can see them .......which brings us back to the OP.

>

> Nigel

>> On 07/04/2014 13:42, David Joyce wrote:

>> 

>>

>> Rowland, I don't dispute the electrical safety. It is just the distraction of having to dig around to make a diagnosis and alter any circuitry rather than having it plain obvious, right under your nose. I am strongly of the opinion that anything that increases the workload/distraction factor in an emergency is a thoroughly bad thing and leads to a lot of stall/spin deaths.

>> Regards, David

>>

>>

>> On Mon, 7 Apr 2014 12:03:57 +0100

>> Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>>> 

>>>

>>>> On 7 Apr 2014, at 11:03, Brian Davies wrote:

>>>>

>>>> You make a very good point.  The only electrical incident I have experienced on my aircraft was a generator  overvolt trip just after coasting out over the Channel.  After a careful check and a reset of the circuit breaker I was able to proceed without any drama. The alternative, with a fuse not readily accessible, would have been a turn back to the airfield/refiling flight plan, revised GAR arrival time etc. etc.

>>>>

>>>> The safety aspects are even more important..

>>>

>>>

>>>> --

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:35 pm Post subject: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

Dave, For what it is worth when my standard Europa 

supplied & wired rectifier failed,  (over the Channel!), 

the only thing that happened was that the ammeter showed 

discharge directly related to how many bits of kit I left 

switched on. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ



On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 19:49:23 +0100

  Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk> wrote:

[quote] 

<nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk>

 

 Dave,

 

 The unit is a combination of rectifier and regulator. 

 The issues you experience will depend on which component 

in which part of the circuit fails.

 There are (as far as I can identify - though I'm sure 

better qualified contributors will correct me if I'm 

wrong) three modes of failure.

 If you are really lucky, it will fail open-circuit, in 

which case everything continues to work fine but your 

battery discharges. The ammeter will show a discharge.

 If you're not so lucky, the regulator fails and sends 

unregulated DC to your battery. This will eventually boil 

dry, get very hot and may distort and if no over-voltage 

protection is fitted, take out your avionics.

 If you're really unlucky and the rectifier section 

fails, this can squirt unrectified AC into the main bus 

and kill just about everything except your ignition.

 Which CB breaks depends entirely on how your aircraft 

was wired up and it is these failure modes that have 

caused such spirited debate when discussing "the right 

way" to wire up a panel.

 

 Nigel

 

 On 07/04/2014 18:13, david park wrote:

> 

><dpark748(at)me.com>

>

> Nigel,

> Would i be correct, in the event of regulator failure, i 

>am going to see?

> 1.over/under voltage on volt meter ?

> 2.main cb break?

> 3.Ameter indication - discharge?

>

> Action - switch off alternator? And any unnecessary 

>drain on battery.

> Dave Park

> Sent from my iPhone

>> On 7 Apr 2014, at 15:24, Nigel Graham 

>><nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk> wrote:

>>

>> 

>><nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk>

>>

>> This is an interesting discussion.

>> If the aircraft wiring has been well designed and 

>>installed and if the correctly rated breaker (or fuse) 

>>has been installed to protect the desired equipment, 

>> then it is surely reasonable to suppose that the only 

>>time the breaker would pop, or the fuse blow, is if 

>>something has failed. No amount of in-flight fiddling is 

>>going to repair a shorted or broken wire, nor replace a 

>>failed capacitor, resistor or semiconductor (dare I 

>>mention Rotax/Ducati Regulator? ..... best not perhaps).

>> Re-setting a popped breaker without identifying why it 

>>popped is surely asking for trouble.  Do you wait for the 

>>first signs of smoke before finally getting the message?

>>

>> The only thing a pilot can do is recognise that a 

>>particular service has gone down and, depending on flight 

>>criticality, divert or continue.

>> The only time to investigate the problem will be when 

>>you are safely down as the cause will almost invariably 

>>be in an inaccessible place.

>>

>> Popped breakers are easy to spot, but fuses are not 

>>immediately obvious - unless you have chosen the ones 

>>that Rowland has used which incorporate a "failure" LED.

>> This does of course require them to be mounted where you 

>>can see them .......which brings us back to the OP.

>>

>> Nigel

>>

>>

>>> On 07/04/2014 13:42, David Joyce wrote:

>>> 

>>><davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

>>>

>>> Rowland, I don't dispute the electrical safety. It is 

>>>just the distraction of having to dig around to make a 

>>>diagnosis and alter any circuitry rather than having it 

>>>plain obvious, right under your nose. I am strongly of 

>>>the opinion that anything that increases the 

>>>workload/distraction factor in an emergency is a 

>>>thoroughly bad thing and leads to a lot of stall/spin 

>>>deaths.

>>> Regards, David

>>>

>>>

>>> On Mon, 7 Apr 2014 12:03:57 +0100

>>> Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>>>> 

>>>><rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>

>>>>

>>>>> On 7 Apr 2014, at 11:03, Brian Davies wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>> You make a very good point.  The only electrical 

>>>>>incident I have experienced on my aircraft was a 

>>>>>generator  overvolt trip just after coasting out over the 

>>>>>Channel.  After a careful check and a reset of the 

>>>>>circuit breaker I was able to proceed without any drama. 

>>>>>The alternative, with a fuse not readily accessible, 

>>>>>would have been a turn back to the airfield/refiling 

>>>>>flight plan, revised GAR arrival time etc. etc.

>>>>>

>>>>> The safety aspects are even more important..

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>> --

houlihan(at)blueyonder.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:15 pm Post subject: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

And thats exactly what happened when my regulator failed, The only unanswered question is why do these failures happen when there is 70 miles of sea to cross.



I have to thank the Europa club people who helped me when this happened, thanks guys

 



Tim



On 7 April 2014 22:35, David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>

  

 

 Dave, For what it is worth when my standard Europa supplied & wired rectifier failed,  (over the Channel!), the only thing that happened was that the ammeter showed discharge directly related to how many bits of kit I left switched on. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

  

 On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 19:49:23 +0100

  Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)> wrote:

 [quote] --> Europa-List message posted by: Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)>

 

 Dave,

 

 The unit is a combination of rectifier and regulator. The issues you experience will depend on which component in which part of the circuit fails.

 There are (as far as I can identify - though I'm sure better qualified contributors will correct me if I'm wrong) three modes of failure.

 If you are really lucky, it will fail open-circuit, in which case everything continues to work fine but your battery discharges. The ammeter will show a discharge.

 If you're not so lucky, the regulator fails and sends unregulated DC to your battery. This will eventually boil dry, get very hot and may distort and if no over-voltage protection is fitted, take out your avionics.

  If you're really unlucky and the rectifier section fails, this can squirt unrectified AC into the main bus and kill just about everything except your ignition.

 Which CB breaks depends entirely on how your aircraft was wired up and it is these failure modes that have caused such spirited debate when discussing "the right way" to wire up a panel.

 

 Nigel

 

 On 07/04/2014 18:13, david park wrote:

 [quote] --> Europa-List message posted by: david park <dpark748(at)me.com (dpark748(at)me.com)>

 

 Nigel,

 Would i be correct, in the event of regulator failure, i am going to see?

 1.over/under voltage on volt meter ?

 2.main cb break?

 3.Ameter indication - discharge?

 

 Action - switch off alternator? And any unnecessary drain on battery.

 Dave Park

 

 

 Sent from my iPhone

 

 

 [quote] On 7 Apr 2014, at 15:24, Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)> wrote:

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)>

 

 This is an interesting discussion.

 If the aircraft wiring has been well designed and installed and if the correctly rated breaker (or fuse) has been installed to protect the desired equipment, then it is surely reasonable to suppose that the only time the breaker would pop, or the fuse blow, is if something has failed. No amount of in-flight fiddling is going to repair a shorted or broken wire, nor replace a failed capacitor, resistor or semiconductor (dare I mention Rotax/Ducati Regulator? ..... best not perhaps).

  Re-setting a popped breaker without identifying why it popped is surely asking for trouble.  Do you wait for the first signs of smoke before finally getting the message?

 

 The only thing a pilot can do is recognise that a particular service has gone down and, depending on flight criticality, divert or continue.

 The only time to investigate the problem will be when you are safely down as the cause will almost invariably be in an inaccessible place.

 

 Popped breakers are easy to spot, but fuses are not immediately obvious - unless you have chosen the ones that Rowland has used which incorporate a "failure" LED.

 This does of course require them to be mounted where you can see them ......which brings us back to the OP.

 

 Nigel

 

 

 [quote] On 07/04/2014 13:42, David Joyce wrote:

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>

 

 Rowland, I don't dispute the electrical safety. It is just the distraction of having to dig around to make a diagnosis and alter any circuitry rather than having it plain obvious, right under your nose. I am strongly of the opinion that anything that increases the workload/distraction factor in an emergency is a thoroughly bad thing and leads to a lot of stall/spin deaths.

  Regards, David

 

 

 On Mon, 7 Apr 2014 12:03:57 +0100

 Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote] --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)>

 

 [quote] On 7 Apr 2014, at 11:03, Brian Davies wrote:

 

 You make a very good point.  The only electrical incident I have experienced on my aircraft was a generator  overvolt trip just after coasting out over the Channel.  After a careful check and a reset of the circuit breaker I was able to proceed without any drama. The alternative, with a fuse not readily accessible, would have been a turn back to the airfield/refiling flight plan, revised GAR arrival time etc. etc.

  

 The safety aspects are even more important..

  --

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:27 am Post subject: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

Alfred…Exquisite…F.

On Apr 8, 2014, at 5:51 AM, A. Buess Aviatik <ykibuess(at)bluewin.ch> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Tony, 

 I followed also Bob N's philosophy and used circuit breakers only for the

 regulators. Blown fuses need careful analysis which is only done after

 landing. The attached picture shows the fuseholders of all three busses

 underneath the picnic tray. 

 

 Regards, Alfred

 ¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨

 Alfred Buess

 CH-3700 Spiez, Switzerland

 Europa XS HB-YKI, Ercoupe 415-E N94804

 

 

 <IMG_0424.JPG>

europa471

Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 35

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:03 pm Post subject: Parcel Shelf tray door access for fuses, CBS

Alfred



Great minds think alike. See attachment. I extended the front edge to 

give the fuse blocks a little more headroom.

I´m still working on my wiring, also a disciple of Bob N, but no CB´s. 

Using an overvoltage module which is resettable by switching off the power.



Lance Sandford in OZ

On 08/04/14 22:51, A. Buess Aviatik wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Tony,

 I followed also Bob N's philosophy and used circuit breakers only for the

 regulators. Blown fuses need careful analysis which is only done after

 landing. The attached picture shows the fuseholders of all three busses

 underneath the picnic tray.



 Regards, Alfred

 ¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨

 Alfred Buess

 CH-3700 Spiez, Switzerland

 Europa XS HB-YKI, Ercoupe 415-E N94804

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