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Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

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mjb777

Joined: 11 Aug 2012
Posts: 54
Location: Dubai UAE

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:10 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

Hi all,



Has anyone with a 912 installed in the Pulsar had or suspected Carb icing? I have not seen any Pulsars with Carb heat.



Does any one run cold air induction, as this is what Rotax says is required to realise 'rated' horsepower?



Regards,



Matt.

_________________
Pulsar 1 TD Kit.
Captain B777.
Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.

lwheat2083

Joined: 03 Jan 2014
Posts: 33
Location: Moses Lake, Washington

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:21 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

I don’t know if this will help but I run with the same CV Bing on a 2200 with intake inside the cowl on a Pulsar III. I have never had any icing problems or power problems with this arrangement. Cheers, Larry

On Apr 15, 2014, at 4:10 PM, mjb777 <mattbrock777(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi all,

 

 Has anyone with a 912 installed in the Pulsar had or suspected Carb icing? I have not seen any Pulsars with Carb heat.

 

 Does any one run cold air induction, as this is what Rotax says is required to realise 'rated' horsepower?

 

 Regards,

 

 Matt.

 

 --------

 Pulsar 1 TD Kit.

 Captain B777.

 Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422013#422013

MyronTruex(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:57 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

I believe on two occassions I experienced carb ice. Both times I had not

warmed the oil fully and there was a lot of condensation in the air. The

engine shook for a few seconds and cleared its throat. By getting the oil

warm the engine compartment and carbs are toasty. 



The carbs do not like Ram Air so you have to be incredibly careful messing

about with something like that.  



--

briana(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:15 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

Matt, 



Some do have carb heat, but not the usual heat air type. There was a product available from, in UK, that formed a hot water manifold around the throat of each Bing. I installed it on my engine right from the beginning, and included a valve so that I could turn it off [or on]. For some years now I have left it in the on condition because it causes no power/rpm drop at all. I can determine if it is actually working because when it is on the coolant temperature drops by approximately 1 degree, as displayed on the EIS. If I was doing it again I would eliminate the valve and leave it on permanently.



There is a photo of the units I used here - - - http://www.ultralightnews.ca/bing/carbheater.html



It is also possible to make, or buy an electric heater to do something similar. I made one for the Bing on my Jabiru 2200 engine. Trouble is to be effective you need a bit of power x 2 for the 912. Figure about 5 amps each while they are on.



Brian

On 16/04/2014, at 11:10 am, mjb777 <mattbrock777(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi all,

 

 Has anyone with a 912 installed in the Pulsar had or suspected Carb icing? I have not seen any Pulsars with Carb heat.

 

 Does any one run cold air induction, as this is what Rotax says is required to realise 'rated' horsepower?

 

 Regards,

 

 Matt.

 

 --------

 Pulsar 1 TD Kit.

 Captain B777.

 Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422013#422013

mjb777

Joined: 11 Aug 2012
Posts: 54
Location: Dubai UAE

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:03 am Post subject: Re: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

Thanks guys,



I have seen the water manifold units and now the UK company that makes them is even selling them, along with other 912 cooling system products on ebay.



Anyone out there running cold air induction? Notice a difference?



I am interested as I read in the Rotax manuals that this is the only way to achieve rated power and economy.



Regards,



Matt.

_________________
Pulsar 1 TD Kit.
Captain B777.
Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.

barry(at)connisbeare.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:23 am Post subject: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

The thing about rated power is that you only ever use it on take-off (OK  the most important time!) as most of the time you will be flying at 75% power.  Iâ€™ve never had any problems getting of of our 500 yard grass strip in the UK,  even with a hot engine on a hot day (yes we do get hot days in the UK!). I think  any marginal increase in power you may get with a cold air system will be  off-set by the increased weight and complexity of it. Keep it simple, keep it  working.

  

 Barry

 G-XPXP 912 Taildragger UK 1000+ hrs

    

  From: mjb777 (mattbrock777(at)gmail.com) 

 Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2014 10:03 AM

 To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com (pulsar-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

  



 -->  Pulsar-List message posted by: "mjb777"  <mattbrock777(at)gmail.com>



Thanks guys,



I have seen the water  manifold units and now the UK company that makes them is even selling them,  along with other 912 cooling system products on ebay.



Anyone out there  running cold air induction? Notice a difference?



I am interested as I  read in the Rotax manuals that this is the only way to achieve rated power and  economy.



Regards,



Matt.



--------

Pulsar 1 TD  Kit.

Captain B777.

Licenced Aircraft Maintenance  Engineer.





Read this topic online  here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422083#422083



    	 		 			 				 			 		 		 			

 				This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. 			 		 	      [quote][b]

kdpalmer(at)mweb.co.za
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:02 am Post subject: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

Matt, I read up on cold/ram induction  many years ago, definitely worth

reading up on, on the internet. Also helps with prop settings & in the long

run consumption.



Go well



Keith



--

paqs345(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:14 am Post subject: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

I have no carburetor heat on my 912 and have not needed it. The exhaust mufflersÂ next to the carbs keep them from getting cold enough to formÂ ice.

Sonja



 



On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 2:03 AM, mjb777 <mattbrock777(at)gmail.com (mattbrock777(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Pulsar-List message posted by: "mjb777" <mattbrock777(at)gmail.com (mattbrock777(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Thanks guys,

 

 I have seen the water manifold units and now the UK company that makes them is even selling them, along with other 912 cooling system products on ebay.

 

 Anyone out there running cold air induction? Notice a difference?

 

 I am interested as I read in the Rotax manuals that this is the only way to achieve rated power and economy.

 

 Regards,

 

 Matt.

 

 --------

 Pulsar 1 TD Kit.

 Captain B777.

 Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422083#422083

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List

 ===========

 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 e -

  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

mjb777

Joined: 11 Aug 2012
Posts: 54
Location: Dubai UAE

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

Makes sense Sonja.



I am thinking of building an exhaust like Ricky Thomasons.  With your engine installation experience, do you think that a system like his, with the mufflers further away from the carbs would provide sufficient heating? Just after your thoughts, as I know that the only true way to find out is via testing.



Any one with Ricky's style of exhaust have any comments? 



Regards,



Matt.

_________________
Pulsar 1 TD Kit.
Captain B777.
Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.

briana(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:05 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

Matt,



I have Rick’s exhaust. Works well. The air in the cowling space still gets hot and the carbs are still quite close to the rear of the muffler and the exhaust pipes off the two rear cylinders.

Be aware though that the Bing carbs are very sensitive to to ambient air pressure, or rather any difference in air pressure between the inlet and the pressure sense port [the one with the little tube attached on the side of the carb.]. There have been some “interesting” loss of power moments in installations that do not manage that carefully. A lot of Jabiru engine owners have issues here, and they have only one Bing carb to manage.



Brian

On 20/04/2014, at 8:17 am, mjb777 <mattbrock777(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Makes sense Sonja.

 

 I am thinking of building an exhaust like Ricky Thomasons.  With your engine installation experience, do you think that a system like his, with the mufflers further away from the carbs would provide sufficient heating? Just after your thoughts, as I know that the only true way to find out is via testing.

 

 Any one with Ricky's style of exhaust have any comments? 

 

 Regards,

 

 Matt.

 

 --------

 Pulsar 1 TD Kit.

 Captain B777.

 Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422114#422114

ghf4986(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:36 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

I have Ricky's exhaust and have flown my Pulsar XP in 7 degree F with

no problems.  I always warm the engine oil to 120 degrees or better

and keep an eye out for the dew point.

The close cowling really helps keep the carbs warm.  Also I block

about half of the incoming air.



Dennis Adams



Sent from an IPad



On Apr 19, 2014, at 2:25 PM, mjb777 <mattbrock777(at)gmail.com> wrote:






Makes sense Sonja.



I am thinking of building an exhaust like Ricky Thomasons.  With your

engine installation experience, do you think that a system like his,

with the mufflers further away from the carbs would provide sufficient

heating? Just after your thoughts, as I know that the only true way to

find out is via testing.



Any one with Ricky's style of exhaust have any comments?



Regards,



Matt.



--------

Pulsar 1 TD Kit.

Captain B777.

Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422114#422114

MyronTruex(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:20 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

Remember, Carb Ice is not necessarily associated with cold weather. In both

cases mine occurred in very moderate temps but high humidity. In each case I

had not properly warmed my engine. In one specific case I was in a hurry to

avoid fog. I started the engine and went to the end of the runway and did my

runup. A very short distance but the sucker hole was moving so I jumped off

the runway. This runway has a 50 plus drop off at each end that ends in the

Pacific Ocean. On climb out the engine went rough. I circled the airport

climbing up to about 10,000 feet to look over the coastal range. Things were

clear and the engine was nice and warm and running like a Timex. The airport

was closing out quickly so I headed East knowing I could glide in worst case

to the highway on the other side of the mountain. Things went well and in

less than two hours we were home. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  From both of my experiences I believe warming the engine oil to the proper

level first will prevent carb ice. That said, I added some landing lights at
	


the cowl inlets that served a couple of purposes. Lights of course and a

signifigant close out of the inlet which was a bonus in Winter.  



--

mjb777

Joined: 11 Aug 2012
Posts: 54
Location: Dubai UAE

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

Great info, and thanks everyone.



I think I have a plan now. Something along the lines of Ricky's exhaust, and will just stick with what works, the individual air filters on the Bings, inside the cowling.



I think I'll have a good look at those UK water jacket extensions for the Bings also unless anyone has had any bad experience with them?



Myron, do you have any pictures of your landing light cowl inlet modifications?

It gets pretty cold and pretty warm in Oz, any temperature issues at all with the smaller inlets?



Regards,



Matt.

_________________
Pulsar 1 TD Kit.
Captain B777.
Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.

barry(at)connisbeare.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:23 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

One point on the air inlet close-outs. I tried this and found it  beneficial, however, my engine is an old one and does not have the GRP shroud  that guides air down over the engine. I did find that my lower coolant hoses got  very hot and perished much faster than normal â€“ I had to change them at least  every 2 years which is a real pain to do and to inspect. If you use the inlet  close-out, just keep an eye on the lower hoses. I took my close-outs off and  shielded some of the rads. I plan to make an adjustable shutter for the rear of  the radiator - one day!

  

 Barry

 G-XPXP 912 Taildragger UK 1000+hrs.

    

  From: mjb777 (mattbrock777(at)gmail.com) 

 Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 4:40 AM

 To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com (pulsar-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

  



 -->  Pulsar-List message posted by: "mjb777"  <mattbrock777(at)gmail.com>



Great info, and thanks everyone.



I  think I have a plan now. Something along the lines of Ricky's exhaust, and will  just stick with what works, the individual air filters on the Bings, inside the  cowling.



I think I'll have a good look at those UK water jacket  extensions for the Bings also unless anyone has had any bad experience with  them?



Myron, do you have any pictures of your landing light cowl inlet  modifications?

It gets pretty cold and pretty warm in Oz, any temperature  issues at all with the smaller  inlets?



Regards,



Matt.



--------

Pulsar 1 TD  Kit.

Captain B777.

Licenced Aircraft Maintenance  Engineer.





Read this topic online  here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422140#422140



    	 		 			 				 			 		 		 			

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MyronTruex(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:09 am Post subject: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

No pictures available at this time. They are packed. I built the enclosure

out of light tin and used small round fog lamps. During the heat of the

Sacramento valley I would remove them. We are talking 100+ degrees.  



--

ccoulter(at)wavecable.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:53 am Post subject: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

I have Rickey's muffler and have had no icing problems.



Clarke



n Sat, 19 Apr 2014 13:17:45 -0700

  "mjb777" <mattbrock777(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<mattbrock777(at)gmail.com>

 

 Makes sense Sonja.

 

 I am thinking of building an exhaust like Ricky 

Thomasons.  With your engine installation experience, do 

you think that a system like his, with the mufflers 

further away from the carbs would provide sufficient 

heating? Just after your thoughts, as I know that the 

only true way to find out is via testing.

 

 Any one with Ricky's style of exhaust have any comments? 

 

 Regards,

 

 Matt.

 

 --------

 Pulsar 1 TD Kit.

 Captain B777.

 Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422114#422114

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Un/Subscription,

Forums!

Admin.

barrynorman(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:05 am Post subject: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

Matt,



I run a ram air system on my Pulsar III during the warmer months because it does make a big difference in performance. My muffler set up is different than the XP and resides under the engine. I use a modified Predator air box that feeds cold air from an inlet off the side of the lower cowling towards the front of the plane. The pressure sensing tubes are attached to the air box that feeds the carbs. I have temperature probes inside the airbox that tend to read 5 degrees higher than OAT during flight. When I'm not using the air box, the temp probes are located next to the carb air filters and they read 50-60 degrees higher that OAT during flight. (This means the ram air feeds much cooler air when being used) I remove it during colder months due to the fear of icing even thought I have never experienced it. Bottom line is, I get better than winter time performance in the summer with the air box. Cruise speed is 5-8 MPH faster and climb 200-300 fpm better. In the summer I cruise around 175 mph.



 Be very careful how you set it up. If you do this to make sure flow is equally distributed to both carbs and the sensing tubes are attached to the air box. I used several sensors when I developed it including manifold pressure. Rotax does not recommend this due to liability issues unless you use their airbox.



Barry



 



From: "mjb777" <mattbrock777(at)gmail.com>

To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2014 5:03:18 AM

Subject: Re: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

--> Pulsar-List message posted by: "mjb777" <mattbrock777(at)gmail.com>

Thanks guys,

I have seen the water manifold units and now the UK company that makes them is even selling them, along with other 912 cooling system products on ebay.

Anyone out there running cold air induction? Notice a difference?

I am interested as I read in the Rotax manuals that this is the only way to achieve rated power and economy.

Regards,

Matt.

--------

Pulsar 1 TD Kit.

Captain B777.

Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422083#422083



 [quote][b]

otto(at)otamat.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:58 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

Hi Matt,Â 

I see you have stirred up the carb icing issue. Since you mentioned your other business is turbo engineering, why not stick the turbo in? That kills the ice big way!

 cheers

otto



On 20 April 2014 19:03,  <barrynorman(at)comcast.net (barrynorman(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 [quote]Matt,



I run a ram air system on my Pulsar III during the warmer months because it does make a big difference in performance. My muffler set up is different than the XP and resides under the engine. I use a modified Predator air box that feeds cold air from an inlet off the side of the lower cowling towards the front of the plane. The pressure sensing tubes are attached to the air box that feeds the carbs. I have temperature probes inside the airbox that tend to read 5 degrees higher than OAT during flight. When I'm not using the air box, the temp probes are located next to the carb air filters and they read 50-60 degrees higher that OAT during flight. (This means the ram air feeds much cooler air when being used) I remove it during colder months due to the fear of icing even thought I have never experienced it. Bottom line is, I get better than winter time performance in the summer with the air box. Cruise speed is 5-8 MPH faster and climb 200-300 fpm better. In the summer I cruise around 175 mph.

 

Â Be very careful how you set it up. If you do this to make sure flow is equally distributed to both carbs and the sensing tubes are attached to the air box. I used several sensors when I developed it including manifold pressure. Rotax does not recommend this due to liability issues unless you use their airbox.

 

Barry



 



 From: "mjb777" <mattbrock777(at)gmail.com (mattbrock777(at)gmail.com)>

To: pulsar-list(at)matronics.com (pulsar-list(at)matronics.com)

 Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2014 5:03:18 AM

Subject: Re: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?



--> Pulsar-List message posted by: "mjb777" <mattbrock777(at)gmail.com (mattbrock777(at)gmail.com)>

 

Thanks guys,

I have seen the water manifold units and now the UK company that makes them is even selling them, along with other 912 cooling system products on ebay.

 Anyone out there running cold air induction? Notice a difference?

I am interested as I read in the Rotax manuals that this is the only way to achieve rated power and economy.

 Regards,

Matt.

--------

Pulsar 1 TD Kit.

Captain B777.

Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.

Read this topic online here:



 



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422083#422083





 

  	  Quote: 	
		  



arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




[b]

paqs345(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:58 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 and Carb ice?

If I had a picture of the installation with Ricky's exhaust, I might

be able to comment on it.



Sonja



On 4/19/14, mjb777 <mattbrock777(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Makes sense Sonja.



 I am thinking of building an exhaust like Ricky Thomasons.  With your engine

 installation experience, do you think that a system like his, with the

 mufflers further away from the carbs would provide sufficient heating? Just

 after your thoughts, as I know that the only true way to find out is via

 testing.



 Any one with Ricky's style of exhaust have any comments?



 Regards,



 Matt.



 --------

 Pulsar 1 TD Kit.

 Captain B777.

 Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=422114#422114

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