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rlindsa2(at)san.rr.com
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 Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 11:03 pm Post subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-Li |
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Don;t confuse airspeed with ground/GPS speed . When in steady state flight in still air and the airplane encounters a sudden 5 kt HW, the air spd indicator almost immediately indicates a momentary 5 kt increase. However, the increase will decay because of increased drag.
Usually, however, the air mass is more dynamic; exhibiting a combination of momentary up and down drafts with horizontal components. Handling this complexity is most crucial during approach to landing. That's why a strait stabilized approach (glide path and airspeed steady) is best controlled by pitching to the glide path and maintaining airspeed with thrust.
Angle of attack, of course, is a more direct indication regarding the wing's margin above stall even in maneuvering flight. But airspeed is adequate if we realize its limitations.
Bob Lindsay
XS Mono N77EU
[quote] ---
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houlihan(at)blueyonder.co
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 11:35 pm Post subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-Li |
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Hi Graham.
We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero.
I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head.
True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just want to be warned if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds.
best regards
TimÂ
On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
[quote]Tim
don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds.
When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.
Graham
From: houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
Hi Graham.
I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?
I bet the real figure is much less than a second.
Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the speed of light at times.
Tim
On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
[b]
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 2:25 am Post subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-Li |
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Tim
maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in airspeed.
When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take several seconds.
The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.
During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record speed of course, as soon
as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best climb.
Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here)
In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but
change as all up weight changes.
AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast jets use it.
A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!
best regards
Graham
From: houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
Hi Graham.
We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero.
I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head.
True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just want to be warned if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds.
best regards
Tim
On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
[quote]Tim
don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds.
When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.
Graham
From: houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31
Subject: Re: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
Hi Graham.
I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?
I bet the real figure is much less than a second.
Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the speed of light at times.
Tim
On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
<="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.co========================
" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.mat --> [/b][b]
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houlihan(at)blueyonder.co
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 3:10 am Post subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-Li |
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Hi Graham.
I agree with your comments about the availability of AOA indications, I have not looked in depth at this but my understanding is the systems available are both very expensive and difficult to install.
During development of the Jaguar aircraft the test aircraft had vane sensors mounted well forward on the pitot boom these measured pitch and yaw and validated the fuselage mounted incidence gauge. This was a fairly standard device that had a tube with a pair of slots that rotates to equal the pressure and aligns with the airflow
On a single engined piston plane anything mounted on the fuselage will be affected by propwash and other factors, if it is mounted on the wing then the results will be affected by the wing itself and vortcies and flow breakdown probably at critical phases of flight. how would you check if the installation is sound and reports correctly without having carried out elaborate flight testing first.
I guess and its only a guess is that the pitot based versions are likely to have the same limitations as standard pitots with things like position error and other effects I expect these things are all able to be corrected out one way or another with clever computation. Why is nothing simple ?
I stand by to be correctedÂ
regards
Tim
On 11 May 2014 11:22, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
[quote]Tim
maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in airspeed.
When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take several seconds.
The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.
During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record speed of course, as soon
as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best climb.
Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here)
In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but
change as all up weight changes.
AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast jets use it.
A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!
best regards
Graham
From: houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Re: Re: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
Hi Graham.
We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero.
I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head.
True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just want to be warned if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds.
best regards
TimÂ
On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
[b]
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kaarsberg(at)terra.com.br
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 8:35 am Post subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-Li |
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Tim et al,
Reflecting on your message, you may agree with me on a few points.
Pitch angle refers to the angle between the a/c longitudinal axis and level.
Angle of incidence, if not mistaken, to longitudinal axis and MAC(?)
The vanes in front of the Jaguar, I believe would measure AOA, which is relative airflow to long. axis.
I do agree that measured AOA could be affected by proximity to the wing, but isn't that the reason it is placed there, in order to read actual AOA on the wing and not theoretical?
Brgds and queuing up for correction 
Alex Kaarsberg
Em 11/05/2014, Ã s 13:09, houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)> escreveu:
[quote]Hi Graham.
I agree with your comments about the availability of AOA indications, I have not looked in depth at this but my understanding is the systems available are both very expensive and difficult to install.
During development of the Jaguar aircraft the test aircraft had vane sensors mounted well forward on the pitot boom these measured pitch and yaw and validated the fuselage mounted incidence gauge. This was a fairly standard device that had a tube with a pair of slots that rotates to equal the pressure and aligns with the airflow
On a single engined piston plane anything mounted on the fuselage will be affected by propwash and other factors, if it is mounted on the wing then the results will be affected by the wing itself and vortcies and flow breakdown probably at critical phases of flight. how would you check if the installation is sound and reports correctly without having carried out elaborate flight testing first.
I guess and its only a guess is that the pitot based versions are likely to have the same limitations as standard pitots with things like position error and other effects I expect these things are all able to be corrected out one way or another with clever computation. Why is nothing simple ?
I stand by to be corrected
regards
Tim
On 11 May 2014 11:22, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Tim
maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in airspeed.
When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take several seconds.
The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.
During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record speed of course, as soon
as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best climb.
Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here)
In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but
change as all up weight changes.
AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast jets use it.
A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!
best regards
Graham
From: houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Re: Re: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
Hi Graham.
We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero.
I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head.
True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just want to be warned if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds.
best regards
Tim
On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
===================================
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
===================================
cs.com
===================================
matronics.com/contribution
===================================
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[b]
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kaarsberg(at)terra.com.br
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 9:06 am Post subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-Li |
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And for something a little more authoritative than what I can extract from my moldy brain, here is a link to Wikipedia for better clarification:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_attack
Alex Kaarsberg
Em 11/05/2014, Ã s 18:33, Alex Kaarsberg <kaarsberg(at)terra.com.br (kaarsberg(at)terra.com.br)> escreveu:
[quote]Tim et al,
Reflecting on your message, you may agree with me on a few points.
Pitch angle refers to the angle between the a/c longitudinal axis and level.
Angle of incidence, if not mistaken, to longitudinal axis and MAC(?)
The vanes in front of the Jaguar, I believe would measure AOA, which is relative airflow to long. axis.
I do agree that measured AOA could be affected by proximity to the wing, but isn't that the reason it is placed there, in order to read actual AOA on the wing and not theoretical?
Brgds and queuing up for correction
Alex Kaarsberg
Em 11/05/2014, Ã s 13:09, houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)>
[b]
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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 6:09 am Post subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-Li |
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​yes i picked up on that, and I definitely like to know more about VG.
Will​
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744
On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 8:42 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON <
grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> wrote:
[quote] Bud
excellent letter. I am most interested in your VG installation. Did you
fit to botn wing and tail?
I fitted them to my Long EZ and was delighted with the improvement in low
speed handling.
Graham
------------------------------
*From:* Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com>
*To:* europa-list <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
*Sent:* Monday, 12 May 2014, 5:28
*Subject:* RE: Re: Re: Europa
crash in Lübeck/Germany
Graham and others.
Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight
cup sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall
like a normal series 6 airfoil.
On the accident comments:
I hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and extensive
flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads me to use caution
speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should
have had equipment, etc.
The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure
it is made in baby steps.
After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our
16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft, many
things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident.
My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here
is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn back and high angle
impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft.
Off the top of my fuzzy balding head:
On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In
testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck
angle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots
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budyerly(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 12:49 pm Post subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-Li |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Graham,
I have the VG test flight and a proposed install manual that went nowhere at Europa on my website today. (www.customflightcreations.com click on techniques articles.) I had a manufacturer make the VGs with a curve on the bottom to fit the wing. I also use a 3M glue that doesn't make a mess and you can reposition them or if you don't like them, pull them off with no paint damage. Right now I am finishing Cooling 102 for the Jabiru installers and trying to finish a really screwed up airplane. I hate redo's. Enough complaining. On to VGs.
On your canards, I believe the VGs are a must for better pitch control and on swept wings keep the ailerons corraled.
On the Europa, VGs do slow you down about 10 knots but since I don't run around at max continuous doing 146 Knots and burning tons of gas, that doesn’t bother me that much. I have had the VGs off for the last two years while I redo some propeller testing for Airmaster and frankly my wheel pants are too low for rough grass so I've stopped STOL / LSA testing. The trigear really doesn't like bumpy rough grass strips so I need to get back to testing on grass so I can get a feel for if I need larger tires.
I only put the VGs on the upper surface of the wing. I must admit that I thought about changing the stop imits of my stab and putting the VGs on it as well, but right now with the VGs on the wing only, my poor old classic has scrape marks on the rudder and spats from the asphalt and I still have stick left at 40 KIAS (CG at 60, +13 up -5 down on stab.)
What it does, is allow me to give someone with an unfinished kit the ability to lower his clean stall to 45KIAS, and with a 912ULS or Jabiru fitted with a fixed pitch prop set at a bit of a mid range, to meet the LSA stall and max continuous power cruise requirement of 120 (well maybe a knot or two more depending on pitch).
For those whose short or rough field woes give them worries, the VGs allow better low speed control, and a lower approach and touchdown speed. The lower touchdown speed and keeping the nose wheel off the turf is critical and without VGs on the stab I can keep the nose up on 12AY but on some really forward CG aircraft, VGs on the stab and a bit of up stab tuning may be necessary. As tested, the aircraft is quite comfortable slow flighting very close to the stall with supurb aileron and pitch control, but the deck angle is a bit high on a dragged in approach. With VGs I can fly a normal 3 degree flight path or steeper at 55 or so and see my touchdown point and cross the threshold at 45-50 and have enough power and control to flare out to a 40 knot touchdown. Alas, the mono's deck angle is so low that you can't land as slow as a trigear, but it sure makes getting the tail wheel down first easier with better roll control should things go a bit askew.
Read over my two attachments on the techniques articles on my site. At $130 plus shipping it’s a cheap experiment (with lots of extra VGs should you want more to put on the stab) and a lot cheaper than adding wing area or trying to build a new classic wing to get the weight down or change the camber for STOL performance.
Regards,
Bud
[quote] ---
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max8992
Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 5:39 am Post subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-Li |
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Graham,
Thanks for the input. I’m in touch with Bud and we will see what could be done…
Max Cointe
mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de GRAHAM SINGLETON
Envoyé : mardi 13 mai 2014 22:28
À : europa-list(at)matronics.com
Objet : Re: RE: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
Max
is it feasible for you to enclose the exhaust pipe by adding a final tunnel for cooling air exit? There
is a lot of energy in the exhaust and it will pull the cooling air through on the ground. Works with Lycomings.
Graham
From: Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tuesday, 13 May 2014, 18:58
Subject: RE: RE: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
Hi Bud,
A lot of respect for your knowledge about flying (safely) in general and building and flying Europa’s in particular.
The only point in your list which I can’t execute belongs to temp in summer: always cooling problems on ground and have to be cautious as soon as hot weather comes…
Max Cointe
mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] De la part de Bud Yerly
Envoyé : lundi 12 mai 2014 06:29
À : europa-list
Objet : RE: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
Graham and others.
Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight cup sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall like a normal series 6 airfoil.
On the accident comments:
I hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads me to use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should have had equipment, etc.
The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure it is made in baby steps.
After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft, many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident.
My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft.
Off the top of my fuzzy balding head:
On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck angle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots. When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning.
Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree push over to try to preserve airspeed and control.
Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed.
Clean, it wasn't much better, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off unless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees) was necessary to preserve airspeed.
To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing:
A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to help determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing. I doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight test yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit distractions early on.
I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other than stall spin accident.
My flight test comments are as follows:
We know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane angles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger lock operates full proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less. Complete Wt. and Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flight loads and CGs verified on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10 gallons US on test flights.) The engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time temps.
The electrical system must be able to handle the load, and if there is a cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with ignition only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.)
All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude indications). Trim must be checked and verified operational.
All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and Autopilots off).
The night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifics of complex electrical systems.
Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes hands off, feet only, half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.) Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots. Return to the pattern, 80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in the turns, and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if in a mono is OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and everything you found abnormal.
Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance. Check CS prop operation, and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verification, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically our engines are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes well and we have good stall characteristics, go back and review the flight. (I have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to stall.
Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I prebrief with him and hand him the keys for a test hop.
However, I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do this. A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save. Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes weight. ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead, and there was nothing that you could have done to make the aircraft safer.)
Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls, slow flight, advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am the technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall buffet, system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This is where the AOA, Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out.
Frankly, my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is a waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip (swept wing aircraft are different). That said, after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F degree weather, sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty" remind me that I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do set in to us all.
If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch your speed as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you could be falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here is where an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator, and proper stall strip can be handy.
Right now all I can do is pray for the families heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft accidents and my own experiences. Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned lessons to those who may benefit.
Regards to all,
Bud
Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 23:03:53 +0100
From: grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Graeme
I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump just
under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also quite small,
again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.Accurate
templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough for these subtle
curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down
stall.
Graham
From: graeme bird <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 18:57
Subject: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
--> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>
Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that point.
Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test flights.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188
p; -Matt Dralle, Libution" =======
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Max8992
Europa XS #560 F-PMLH |
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 9:04 am Post subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-Li |
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I assumed you were talking about the MCR 4S!
Graham
From: Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe(at)free.fr>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, 14 May 2014, 14:38
Subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
Graham,
Thanks for the input. I’m in touch with Bud and we will see what could be done…
Max Cointe
mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de GRAHAM SINGLETON
Envoyé : mardi 13 mai 2014 22:28
À : europa-list(at)matronics.com
Objet : Re: Europa-List: RE: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
Max
is it feasible for you to enclose the exhaust pipe by adding a final tunnel for cooling air exit? There
is a lot of energy in the exhaust and it will pull the cooling air through on the ground. Works with Lycomings.
Graham
From: Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tuesday, 13 May 2014, 18:58
Subject: RE: RE: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
Hi Bud,
A lot of respect for your knowledge about flying (safely) in general and building and flying Europa’s in particular.
The only point in your list which I can’t execute belongs to temp in summer: always cooling problems on ground and have to be cautious as soon as hot weather comes…
Max Cointe
mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] De la part de Bud Yerly
Envoyé : lundi 12 mai 2014 06:29
À : europa-list
Objet : RE: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
Graham and others.
Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight cup sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall like a normal series 6 airfoil.
On the accident comments:
I hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads me to use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should have had equipment, etc.
The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure it is made in baby steps.
After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft, many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident.
My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft.
Off the top of my fuzzy balding head:
On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck angle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots. When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning.
Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree push over to try to preserve airspeed and control.
Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed.
Clean, it wasn't much better, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off unless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees) was necessary to preserve airspeed.
To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing:
A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to help determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing. I doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight test yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit distractions early on.
I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other than stall spin accident.
My flight test comments are as follows:
We know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane angles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger lock operates full proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less. Complete Wt. and Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flight loads and CGs verified on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10 gallons US on test flights.) The engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time temps.
The electrical system must be able to handle the load, and if there is a cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with ignition only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.)
All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude indications). Trim must be checked and verified operational.
All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and Autopilots off).
The night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifics of complex electrical systems.
Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes hands off, feet only, half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.) Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots. Return to the pattern, 80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in the turns, and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if in a mono is OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and everything you found abnormal.
Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance. Check CS prop operation, and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verification, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically our engines are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes well and we have good stall characteristics, go back and review the flight. (I have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to stall.
Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I prebrief with him and hand him the keys for a test hop.
However, I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do this. A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save. Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes weight. ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead, and there was nothing that you could have done to make the aircraft safer.)
Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls, slow flight, advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am the technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall buffet, system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This is where the AOA, Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out.
Frankly, my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is a waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip (swept wing aircraft are different). That said, after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F degree weather, sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty" remind me that I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do set in to us all.
If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch your speed as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you could be falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here is where an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator, and proper stall strip can be handy.
Right now all I can do is pray for the families heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft accidents and my own experiences. Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned lessons to those who may benefit.
Regards to all,
Bud
Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 23:03:53 +0100
From: grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Graeme
I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump just
under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also quite small,
again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.Accurate
templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough for these subtle
curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down
stall.
Graham
From: graeme bird <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 18:57
Subject: Re: Europa crash in Lübeck/Germany
--> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>
Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that point.
Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test flights.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188
p; -Matt Dralle, Libution" =======
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