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stranfaer(at)btinternet.c
Guest
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 Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 5:35 am Post subject: Smart Ass |
 |
|
David
I agree entirely, I have contacted Mark burton and he informs me the mark 2 version is in test and is a few months away. Cost appears to be very reasonable!
Can you enlighten us all if it is retro fittable? and how easy to do particularly on a classic?
rgds
DJ
Sent to you by David Joyce
www.eastmidsspas.com
PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW AT
The Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road Ripley Derbys DE5 3AS
160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island
Same Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755
From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 11:42
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
Graham, Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim, and I see where you are coming from now, but can I just add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives exactly the same 'margin over stall' information as an AOA device (and at a fraction of the price). It might appear that I am pushing this as if I had some commercial tie up, which is not the case. I am evangelical about it because we have now had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas lost to stall/spin accidents, an appalling statistic for a plane that flies so beautifully and is slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There have of course been countless crashes of other types also, but in our relatively small and tight knit Europa community it is truly sobering and we should all be asking ourselves are we confident of not becoming number 7.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST)
GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Tim
maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in airspeed. When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take several seconds.
The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.
During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record speed of course, as soon as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best climb.
Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here)
In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but
change as all up weight changes.
AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast jets use it.
A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!
best regards
Graham
________________________________
From: houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
Hi Graham.
We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero.
I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head.
True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just want to be warned if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds.
best regards
Tim
On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
Tim
> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds.
> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.
> Graham
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)>
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31
> Subject: Re: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
>
>
>
> Hi Graham.
>
>
> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?
> I bet the real figure is much less than a second.
> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the speed of light at times.
>
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
>
> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too late.
>> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice Europa.
>> Graham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
>> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36
>> Subject: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
>>
>>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
>>
>>
>> I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>>
>>
>>
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> http://www.matronics.com/con================
>
> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.========================/
============avigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?= Same great content also ttp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com/sp; -nics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribut===============
|
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 6:01 am Post subject: Smart Ass |
|
|
David,
I was also looking for the installation manual, but without success. There is one website but they want my credit card details for a trial membership. Has Mark got it online somewhere ?
regards Karl
Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 14:31:30 +0100
From: stranfaer(at)btinternet.com
Subject: Smart Ass
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
David
I agree entirely, I have contacted Mark burton and he informs me the mark 2 version is in test and is a few months away. Cost appears to be very reasonable!
Can you enlighten us all if it is retro fittable? and how easy to do particularly on a classic?
rgds
DJ
Sent to you by David Joyce
www.eastmidsspas.com
PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW AT
The Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road Ripley Derbys DE5 3AS
160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island
Same Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755
From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 11:42
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Re: Re: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
Graham, Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim, and I see where you are coming from now, but can I just add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives exactly the same 'margin over stall' information as an AOA device (and at a fraction of the price). It might appear that I am pushing this as if I had some commercial tie up, which is not the case. I am evangelical about it because we have now had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas lost to stall/spin accidents, an appalling statistic for a plane that flies so beautifully and is slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There have of course been countless crashes of other types also, but in our relatively small and tight knit Europa community it is truly sobering and we should all be asking ourselves are we confident of not becoming number 7.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST)
GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Tim
maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in airspeed. When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take several seconds.
The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.
During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record speed of course, as soon as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best climb.
Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here)
In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but
change as all up weight changes.
AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast jets use it.
A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!
best regards
Graham
________________________________
From: houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34
Subject: Re: Re: Europa-List: Re: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
Hi Graham.
We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero.
I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head.
True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just want to be warned if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds.
best regards
Tim
On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
Tim
> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds.
> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.
> Graham
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)>
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31
> Subject: Re: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
>
>
>
> Hi Graham.
>
>
> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?
> I bet the real figure is much less than a second.
> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the speed of light at times.
>
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
>
> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too late.
>> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice Europa.
>> Graham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
>> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36
>> Subject: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
>>
>>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
>>
>>
>> I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>>
>>
>>
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> http://www.matronics.com/con================
>
> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.========================/
============avigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?= Same great content also ttp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com/sp; -nics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribut===============
|
[quote]
===========
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 6:42 am Post subject: Smart Ass |
|
|
Karl, I could copy relevant sections of my mk 2
installation manual to you if you tell me what you are
after. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
PS Don't get confused over the multiple David Joyces in
this message!
On Sun, 11 May 2014 15:00:22 +0100
Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com> wrote:
| Quote: | David,
I was also looking for the installation manual, but
without success. There is one website but they want my
credit card details for a trial membership. Has Mark got
it online somewhere ?
regards Karl
Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 14:31:30 +0100
From: stranfaer(at)btinternet.com
Subject: Smart Ass
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
David
I agree entirely, I have contacted Mark burton and he
informs me the mark 2 version is in test and is a few
months away. Cost appears to be very reasonable!
Can you enlighten us all if it is retro fittable? and
how easy to do particularly on a classic?rgdsDJ Sent to
you by David Joyce
www.eastmidsspas.com PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE
NOW ATThe Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road Ripley
Derbys DE5 3AS160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island Same
Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755
From:
David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 11:42
Subject: Re: Re: Re:
Re: Re: Re:
Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
<davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Graham, Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim,
and I see where you are coming from now, but can I just
add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives
exactly the same 'margin over stall' information as an
AOA device (and at a fraction of the price). It might
appear that I am pushing this as if I had some
commercial tie up, which is not the case. I am
evangelical about it because we have now had (subject to
confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas lost to
stall/spin accidents, an appalling statistic for a plane
that flies so beautifully and is slippery enough not to
lose speed rapidly. There have of course been countless
crashes of other types also, but in our relatively small
and tight knit Europa community it is truly sobering and
we should all be asking ourselves are we confident of not
becoming number 7.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST)
GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> wrote:
> Tim
> maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure
>instantly changes in airspeed. When AoA changes aircraft
>speed will not change instantly but will take several
>seconds.
>
The force causing change of airspeed is increase or
decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.
> During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust
>and ASI will record speed of course, as soon as the
>aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best
>climb.
> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total
>weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here)
> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at
>fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but
> change as all up weight changes.
> AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument.
>That's why fast jets use it.
> A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!
> best regards
> Graham
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk>
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014,
>8:34
> Subject: Re: Re:
>Re: Re: Europa Crash in
>Lübeck/Germany
>
>
>
> Hi Graham.
>
> We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what
>you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100'
>thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the
>ASI has moved from zero.
>
> I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a
>600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement
>relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a
>small fraction of a second even using our normal
>mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and
>could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors
>close to the pitot head.
>
> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I
just want to be warned if through lack of attention or
being distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack
of attention or distraction events usually build up
slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely
happens over one or two seconds.
>
> best regards
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON
><grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> Tim
>> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!)
>>until the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down
>>and that takes many seconds.
>> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not
>>a lot of use.
>> Graham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk>
>> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May
>>2014, 14:31
>> Subject: Re: Re:
>>Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Graham.
>>
>>
>> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong
>>place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20
>>seconds ?
>> I bet the real figure is much less than a second.
>> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to
>>move at the speed of light at times.
>>
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON
>><grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument.
>>The ASI is always 20 seconds too late.
>>> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very
>>>nice man and a nice Europa.
>>> Graham
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
>>> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May
>>>2014, 12:36
>>> Subject: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>><davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
>>>
>>>
>>> I strongly suspect that this another case where a
>>>SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both.
>>>David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>>>tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/con================
>>
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.========================/
> ============avigator?Europa-List"
>target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?= Same
>great content also
ttp://forums.matronics.com/"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com/sp;
-nics.com/contribution"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribut===============
===========
===========
===========
===========
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stranfaer(at)btinternet.c
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 6:56 am Post subject: Smart Ass |
|
|
Multiple?
Only 2
That's enough for one list don't you think?
Sent to you by David Joyce
www.eastmidsspas.com
PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW AT
The Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road Ripley Derbys DE5 3AS
160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island
Same Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755
From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 15:40
Subject: Re: Smart Ass
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
Karl, I could copy relevant sections of my mk 2 installation manual to you if you tell me what you are after. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
PS Don't get confused over the multiple David Joyces in this message!
On Sun, 11 May 2014 15:00:22 +0100
Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com (kheindl(at)msn.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | David,
I was also looking for the installation manual, but without success. There is one website but they want my credit card details for a trial membership. Has Mark got it online somewhere ?
regards Karl
Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 14:31:30 +0100
From: stranfaer(at)btinternet.com (stranfaer(at)btinternet.com)
Subject: Smart Ass
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
David
I agree entirely, I have contacted Mark burton and he informs me the mark 2 version is in test and is a few months away. Cost appears to be very reasonable!
Can you enlighten us all if it is retro fittable? and how easy to do particularly on a classic?rgdsDJ Sent to you by David Joyce
www.eastmidsspas.com PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW ATThe Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road Ripley Derbys DE5 3AS160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island Same Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755
From:
David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 11:42
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Europa-List: Re: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
Graham, Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim, and I see where you are coming from now, but can I just add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives exactly the same 'margin over stall' information as an AOA device (and at a fraction of the price). It might appear that I am pushing this as if I had some
commercial tie up, which is not the case. I am evangelical about it because we have now had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas lost to stall/spin accidents, an appalling statistic for a plane that flies so beautifully and is slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There have of course been countless crashes of other types also, but in our relatively small and tight knit Europa community it is truly sobering and we should all be asking ourselves are we confident of not becoming number 7.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST)
GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
> Tim
> maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in airspeed. When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take several seconds.
>
The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.
> During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record speed of course, as soon as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best climb.
> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here)
> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but
> change as all up weight changes.
> AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast jets use it.
> A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!
> best regards
> Graham
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)>
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
>
>
>
> Hi Graham.
>
> We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero.
>
> I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head.
>
> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I
just want to be warned if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds.
>
> best regards
>
> Tim
>
>
> On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
>
> Tim
>> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds.
>> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.
>> Graham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)>
>> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Graham.
>>
>>
>> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?
>> I bet the real figure is much less than a second.
>> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the speed of light at times.
>>
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
>>
>> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too late.
>>> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice Europa.
>>> Graham
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
>>> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36
>>> Subject: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
>>>
>>>
>>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>
>>>
>>>
>>> I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/con================
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.========================/
> ============avigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?= Same great content also
ttp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com/sp; -nics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribut===============
===========
===========
===========
===========
onics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com========================<brsp; --> <a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" =======
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Ivor Phillips
Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 7:02 am Post subject: Smart Ass |
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|
I fitted the mk2 to G-IVER in 2007 before first flight,
it's very straight forward to fit and works a treat, the few times I left it switched off for the bi annual flight test just goes to show how it reduces your workload especially doing EFATO and simulated off airfield landings,
Without doubt it a highly recommended bit of kit for very little money IMO
Ivor Phillips
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On 11 May 2014, at 15:40, "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> wrote:
Karl, I could copy relevant sections of my mk 2 installation manual to you if you tell me what you are after. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
PS Don't get confused over the multiple David Joyces in this message!
On Sun, 11 May 2014 15:00:22 +0100
Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com> wrote:
> David,
> I was also looking for the installation manual, but without success. There is one website but they want my credit card details for a trial membership. Has Mark got it online somewhere ?
> regards Karl
> Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 14:31:30 +0100
> From: stranfaer(at)btinternet.com
> Subject: Smart Ass
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
> David
> I agree entirely, I have contacted Mark burton and he informs me the mark 2 version is in test and is a few months away. Cost appears to be very reasonable!
> Can you enlighten us all if it is retro fittable? and how easy to do particularly on a classic?rgdsDJ Sent to you by David Joyce
> www.eastmidsspas.com PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW ATThe Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road Ripley Derbys DE5 3AS160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island Same Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755
> From:
> David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 11:42
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
>
> Graham, Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim, and I see where you are coming from now, but can I just add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives exactly the same 'margin over stall' information as an AOA device (and at a fraction of the price). It might appear that I am pushing this as if I had some
> commercial tie up, which is not the case. I am evangelical about it because we have now had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas lost to stall/spin accidents, an appalling statistic for a plane that flies so beautifully and is slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There have of course been countless crashes of other types also, but in our relatively small and tight knit Europa community it is truly sobering and we should all be asking ourselves are we confident of not becoming number 7.
> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
> On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST)
> GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Tim
>> maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in airspeed. When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take several seconds.
> The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.
>> During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record speed of course, as soon as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best climb.
>> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here)
>> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but
>> change as all up weight changes.
>> AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast jets use it.
>> A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!
>> best regards
>> Graham
>> ________________________________
>> From: houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk>
>> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34
>> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
>> Hi Graham.
>> We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero.
>> I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head.
>> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I
> just want to be warned if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds.
>> best regards
>> Tim On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Tim
>>> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds.
>>> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.
>>> Graham
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: houlihan <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk>
>>> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31
>>> Subject: Re: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
>>> Hi Graham.
>>> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?
>>> I bet the real figure is much less than a second.
>>> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the speed of light at times.
>>> Tim
>>>> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too late.
>>>> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice Europa.
>>>> Graham
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
>>>> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36
>>>> Subject: Re: Europa Crash in Lübeck/Germany
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> http://www.matronics.com/con================ arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.========================/
>> ============avigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?= Same great content also
> ttp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com/sp; -nics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribut===============
> ===========
> ===========
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> ===========
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Fred Klein
Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 7:27 am Post subject: Smart Ass |
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On May 11, 2014, at 8:00 AM, Ivor Phillips <ivor.phillips(at)ntlworld.com (ivor.phillips(at)ntlworld.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | | Without doubt it a highly recommended bit of kit for very little money |
When attempting to go to “www.smartavionics.com”, I get an “Untrusted Connection” prompt indicating that
"If you usually connect to this site without problems, this error could mean that someone is trying to impersonate the site, and you shouldn't continue.”
Has anyone else encountered this situation?
Fred
[quote][b]
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rehn(at)rockisland.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 8:25 am Post subject: Smart Ass |
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Fred
Site worked for me. Got a response from Mark this morning indicating that the device is currently in flight test and will be available in one or two months.
Jerry
Sent from my iPad
On May 11, 2014, at 8:25 AM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:
[quote]
On May 11, 2014, at 8:00 AM, Ivor Phillips <ivor.phillips(at)ntlworld.com (ivor.phillips(at)ntlworld.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | | Without doubt it a highly recommended bit of kit for very little money |
When attempting to go to “www.smartavionics.comâ€, I get an “Untrusted Connection†prompt indicating that
"If you usually connect to this site without problems, this error could mean that someone is trying to impersonate the site, and you shouldn't continue.â€
Has anyone else encountered this situation?
Fred
| Quote: |
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
a-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
//forums.matronics.com
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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[b]
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