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Equipping experimental for IFR

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curts63

Joined: 04 Dec 2013
Posts: 30
Location: New Ringgold, PA

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:26 pm Post subject: Equipping experimental for IFR

I"m new to owning a plane and trying to learn.  I bought a used experimental plane.  The panel includes an MGL Voyager EFIS, Backup airspeed, Backup altimeter, Garmin 430W, Garmin GTX-327, Garmin 240 audio panel, and a Navworx ADS-B.  



The Voyager has the horizon, slip skid ball, compass, altimeter, airspeed, OAT, clock, timer, oil temp, oil pressure, RPM, CDI, glideslope, autopilot,  and more.



My question is, what is the required equipment for IFR and what testing has to be done prior to filing and flying?



Any insight and guidance is greatly appreciated.   



Thanks, Curt

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:02 pm Post subject: Equipping experimental for IFR

The answer is in your operating limitations. Normally you have to meet 

the requirements of 91.205(d). You have to have altimeter and static 

system certified to meet IFR standards. If you have an encoder, it has 

to meet the correspondence standards to the altimeter.

You need two way communication radio and at least 1 navigation method. 

In most circumstances you will need a Mode A/C or Mode S transponder and 

it has to be certified. The only nav radio that has to be certified is 

the GPS.



On 5/15/2014 5:26 PM, curts63 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I"m new to owning a plane and trying to learn.  I bought a used experimental plane.  The panel includes an MGL Voyager EFIS, Backup airspeed, Backup altimeter, Garmin 430W, Garmin GTX-327, Garmin 240 audio panel, and a Navworx ADS-B.



 The Voyager has the horizon, slip skid ball, compass, altimeter, airspeed, OAT, clock, timer, oil temp, oil pressure, RPM, CDI, glideslope, autopilot,  and more.



 My question is, what is the required equipment for IFR and what testing has to be done prior to filing and flying?



 Any insight and guidance is greatly appreciated.



 Thanks, Curt





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423326#423326

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

curts63

Joined: 04 Dec 2013
Posts: 30
Location: New Ringgold, PA

Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 3:48 am Post subject: Re: Equipping experimental for IFR

Ok, thanks.  In the case of the pitot static and transponder, they get tested every 24 months.  Is this test different for VFR versus IFR?  



For the Garmin 430W, I've heard that this requires a ground test and flight test?  Is this something that needs to be repeated on a standard interval?  



Is it required to have a backup instruments to the EFIS ?  I know it's the better practice to have those, but are they required in experimental?



Curt

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 5:08 am Post subject: Equipping experimental for IFR

5/16/2014

  

 Hello Curt, You wrote: “.... trying to learn.”  

  

 I really appreciate it when an EAB  (Experimental Amateur Built) aircraft builder or owner comes out with an  attitude like that – way to go!

  

 Some time back I created the attached document  to help answer questions like yours. It has been published in Kitplanes  magazine.

  

 Please let me know if you have any further  questions.

  

 ‘OC’ Baker

  

 'O C' Baker  says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand  information."

  

 ============================================

  



Time: 05:27:36 PM PST US

Subject: Avionics-List:  Equipping experimental for IFR

From: "curts63" <curt.stein(at)verizon.net>

I"m new to owning a plane and trying to  learn.  I bought a used experimental plane.

The panel includes an MGL  Voyager EFIS, Backup airspeed, Backup altimeter,

Garmin 430W, Garmin GTX-327,  Garmin 240 audio panel, and a Navworx ADS-B. 

The Voyager has the  horizon, slip skid ball, compass, altimeter, airspeed, OAT,

clock, timer, oil  temp, oil pressure, RPM, CDI, glideslope, autopilot,  and more.



My  question is, what is the required equipment for IFR and what testing has  to

be done prior to filing and flying?



Any insight and guidance is  greatly appreciated.   



Thanks,  Curt

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Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 7:25 am Post subject: Equipping experimental for IFR

Yes, the IFR altimeter/static test involves checking every 1000 ft up to 

max altitude you want.

No on repetition of the 430. See AC 20-138A

No backups required for experimental, just Part 23. Good idea to plan 

what type of backup you want.



On 5/16/2014 4:48 AM, curts63 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Ok, thanks.  In the case of the pitot static and transponder, they get tested every 24 months.  Is this test different for VFR versus IFR?



 For the Garmin 430W, I've heard that this requires a ground test and flight test?  Is this something that needs to be repeated on a standard interval?



 Is it required to have a backup instruments to the EFIS ?  I know it's the better practice to have those, but are they required in experimental?



 Curt





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423340#423340

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 8:43 am Post subject: Equipping experimental for IFR

5/16/2014



Hello Curt, You wrote:



1) “Does it have to be field tested/certified prior to IFR flight .....?”



a) Let’s take the “certified” part first. This extract:



“Fly WAAS Approaches



GNS 430W comes with built-in WAAS navigation capabilities. It is approved to 

fly LPV “glideslope” approaches without reference to ground-based navaids of 

any kind. Featuring an advanced 15-channel receiver capable of five position 

updates per second, GNS 430W meets the FAA's stringent TSO C146a standards 

for WAAS "sole means" navigation — providing vertical and lateral approach 

guidance into thousands of U.S. airports previously inaccessible in IFR 

conditions.”



copied from a Garmin page shows that the 430W is fully compliant with TSO 

C146a for “sole means” navigation including precision approaches. No further 

certification in the field is needed.



b) Regarding field testing: There are no provisions in the federal 

regulatory system for the FAA to field test the avionics installation in 

your EAB aircraft. One may turn to an FAA approved MRO (Maintenance and 

Repair Organization) for such field testing, but that organization is 

obligated to comply with some regulatory provisions established for type 

certificated aircraft which do not apply to your EAB. In the MRO's misguided 

attempts to comply with type certificated aircraft criteria in regard to 

your EAB you can wind up with a real (and expensive) mess on your hands.



So my recommendation is that you use an FAA approved MRO for the bench 

testing and repair of your individual avionics components when required, but 

do not attempt to have them field test any EAB entire avionics installation.



b) “.... does it need to be certified on an ongoing interval,...”



No regulatory recertification for the 430W is required, but there are the 

issues of navigation data base and software updates:



a) Navigation Data Base Updates: This can be an ongoing chore / expense 

depending upon how you approach it. The ultimate (and most expensive) 

navigation data base update solution is to have a Jeppesen subscription that 

provides one an appropriate geographic navigation data base update every 26 

days that you must download with your computer onto the navigation data base 

card for your 430W and then install in the unit. An alternative is to call 

Jeppesen to order and install a one time navigation data base download when 

you see the need.



b) Software Updates: If you poke around digitally inside your 430W you will 

discover an amazingly large number of different software programs that 

control the various aspects of that box. You can write down the identity, 

including the version, of each of those software programs and carry it off 

to a nearby qualified Garmin dealer / servicing facility. They can check 

their Garmin files to see if there are any available updates to those 

software programs. Those updates will fall into categories such as mandatory 

(in Garmin’s opinion) or sort of nice to have. Use your judgment as to 

whether you want to go to the effort / expense to have any software updates 

done.



Please let me know if you have any further questions.



'OC'



=====================================================================================



From: Curt

Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 9:23 AM

To: 'Owen Baker '

Subject: RE: Equipping experimental for IFR



Owen, Thank you for the equipment list, that helps with what’s needed for 

flight rules.  The one outstanding question is with the Garmin 430W.  Does 

it have to be field tested/certified prior to IFR flight and does it need to 

be certified on an ongoing interval, like the transponder?



Sincerely,



Curt Stein



=====================================================



From: Owen Baker [mailto:bakerocb(at)cox.net]

Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 9:08 AM

To: curt.stein(at)verizon.net; avionics-list(at)matronics.com; 

aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Equipping experimental for IFR



5/16/2014



Hello Curt, You wrote: “.... trying to learn.”



I really appreciate it when an EAB (Experimental Amateur Built) aircraft 

builder or owner comes out with an attitude like that – way to go!



Some time back I created the attached document to help answer questions like 

yours. It has been published in Kitplanes magazine.



Please let me know if you have any further questions.



‘OC’ Baker



'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather 

and understand information."



=====================================================================



Time: 05:27:36 PM PST US

Subject: Equipping experimental for IFR

From: "curts63" <curt.stein(at)verizon.net>

I"m new to owning a plane and trying to learn.  I bought a used experimental 

plane.

The panel includes an MGL Voyager EFIS, Backup airspeed, Backup altimeter,

Garmin 430W, Garmin GTX-327, Garmin 240 audio panel, and a Navworx ADS-B.

The Voyager has the horizon, slip skid ball, compass, altimeter, airspeed, 

OAT,

clock, timer, oil temp, oil pressure, RPM, CDI, glideslope, autopilot,  and 

more.



My question is, what is the required equipment for IFR and what testing has 

to

be done prior to filing and flying?



Any insight and guidance is greatly appreciated.



Thanks, Curt

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:51 pm Post subject: Equipping experimental for IFR

5/16/2014



Hello Curt, You wrote:



1) "There are no mandatory tests like you would see in the VOR area where 

you're required to check the accuracy?"



I am aware of no regulatory mandatory requirement to check the GPS accuracy 

performance of a Garmin 430W prior to filing and flying IFR. You may wish to 

check into the subject of RAIM (Receiver Autonomous Integrity Monitoring).



2) "So in conclusion, the 430w does not need any kind of test prior to using 

it in IFR conditions?"**



As you imply in 1 above, if you are using the VOR capability of the 430W for 

IFR  navigation then you must comply with 14 CFR 91.171.



3) "You don't need a signed flight manual supplement to go along with the 

POH?"



Here you are treading into the area of trying to super impose regulatory 

requirements established by the FAA for type certificated aircraft onto the 

far thinner regulatory arena that EAB aircraft operate in. Where is the 

regulation that requires a POH for an EAB aircraft? Where is the regulation 

that says who is authorized to sign the flight manual supplement for an EAB 

aircraft POH?##



4) "I really appreciate you taking the time to educate me."



It is my pleasure, sir.



5) "Thanks again for your assistance."



You are welcome any time.



'OC'



**PS: I would recommend extensive practice under VFR in VMC conditions with 

your aircraft's avionics installation before venturing into IFR under IMC 

conditions.



##PS: I am not saying that a good POH / supplement is not needed for safe 

flight in EAB aircraft, just that the FAA does not mandate those items by 

regulations and it is up to the builder / pilot of the EAB aircraft to 

create what is needed for safe flight for him and his aircraft.



========================================================

From: Curt

Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 3:26 PM

To: 'Owen Baker '

Subject: RE: Equipping experimental for IFR



Owen,

So in conclusion, the 430w does not need any kind of test prior to using it 

in IFR conditions?  There are no mandatory tests like you would see in the 

VOR area where you're required to check the accuracy? You don't need a 

signed flight manual supplement to go along with the POH?



I do know about the monthly nav data updates from Jeppesen.  I did purchase 

the expensive annual update package for my intended area of flying.



Thanks again for your assistance.  I really appreciate you taking the time 

to educate me.



Curt

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 6:16 pm Post subject: Equipping experimental for IFR

I strongly recommend following the guidance of AC 20-138A (available for 

download from FAA) when installing a certified GPS in an OBAM 

experimental aircraft.

Item 22 on pg 37 is Installed performance-ground tests. Ensures there 

are not interference issues with other installed avionics.

Item 23 on pg 39. Installed performance - flight test. Again, 

suggestions to ensure flight guidance, especially for approaches is as 

expected.

Not regulatory, but highly recommended. The AC also has some guidance on 

flight manual supplements.

Generally not a big deal, unless you plan on having someone other than 

yourself fly the plane.



On 5/16/2014 2:50 PM, Owen Baker wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 5/16/2014



 Hello Curt, You wrote:



 1) "There are no mandatory tests like you would see in the VOR area 

 where you're required to check the accuracy?"



 I am aware of no regulatory mandatory requirement to check the GPS 

 accuracy performance of a Garmin 430W prior to filing and flying IFR. 

 You may wish to check into the subject of RAIM (Receiver Autonomous 

 Integrity Monitoring).



 2) "So in conclusion, the 430w does not need any kind of test prior to 

 using it in IFR conditions?"**



 As you imply in 1 above, if you are using the VOR capability of the 

 430W for IFR  navigation then you must comply with 14 CFR 91.171.



 3) "You don't need a signed flight manual supplement to go along with 

 the POH?"



 Here you are treading into the area of trying to super impose 

 regulatory requirements established by the FAA for type certificated 

 aircraft onto the far thinner regulatory arena that EAB aircraft 

 operate in. Where is the regulation that requires a POH for an EAB 

 aircraft? Where is the regulation that says who is authorized to sign 

 the flight manual supplement for an EAB aircraft POH?##



 4) "I really appreciate you taking the time to educate me."



 It is my pleasure, sir.



 5) "Thanks again for your assistance."



 You are welcome any time.



 'OC'



 **PS: I would recommend extensive practice under VFR in VMC conditions 

 with your aircraft's avionics installation before venturing into IFR 

 under IMC conditions.



 ##PS: I am not saying that a good POH / supplement is not needed for 

 safe flight in EAB aircraft, just that the FAA does not mandate those 

 items by regulations and it is up to the builder / pilot of the EAB 

 aircraft to create what is needed for safe flight for him and his 

 aircraft.



 ========================================================

 From: Curt

 Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 3:26 PM

 To: 'Owen Baker '

 Subject: RE: Equipping experimental for IFR



 Owen,

 So in conclusion, the 430w does not need any kind of test prior to 

 using it in IFR conditions?  There are no mandatory tests like you 

 would see in the VOR area where you're required to check the accuracy? 

 You don't need a signed flight manual supplement to go along with the 

 POH?



 I do know about the monthly nav data updates from Jeppesen.  I did 

 purchase the expensive annual update package for my intended area of 

 flying.



 Thanks again for your assistance.  I really appreciate you taking the 

 time to educate me.



 Curt

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 7:53 pm Post subject: Equipping experimental for IFR

The Garmin 430W install manual has a checkout procedure as well.

FWIW, I do know the local avionics shop here has a pilot they use to shoot various approaches in VFR to verify all is well. I don't know that it's required, but it seems only prudent to do so.

Tim

 	  Quote: 	
		   On May 16, 2014, at 7:15 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I strongly recommend following the guidance of AC 20-138A (available for download from FAA) when installing a certified GPS in an OBAM experimental aircraft.

 Item 22 on pg 37 is Installed performance-ground tests. Ensures there are not interference issues with other installed avionics.

 Item 23 on pg 39. Installed performance - flight test. Again, suggestions to ensure flight guidance, especially for approaches is as expected.

 Not regulatory, but highly recommended. The AC also has some guidance on flight manual supplements.

 Generally not a big deal, unless you plan on having someone other than yourself fly the plane.

 

> On 5/16/2014 2:50 PM, Owen Baker wrote:

> 

> 

> 5/16/2014

> 

> Hello Curt, You wrote:

> 

> 1) "There are no mandatory tests like you would see in the VOR area where you're required to check the accuracy?"

> 

> I am aware of no regulatory mandatory requirement to check the GPS accuracy performance of a Garmin 430W prior to filing and flying IFR. You may wish to check into the subject of RAIM (Receiver Autonomous Integrity Monitoring).

> 

> 2) "So in conclusion, the 430w does not need any kind of test prior to using it in IFR conditions?"**

> 

> As you imply in 1 above, if you are using the VOR capability of the 430W for IFR  navigation then you must comply with 14 CFR 91.171.

> 

> 3) "You don't need a signed flight manual supplement to go along with the POH?"

> 

> Here you are treading into the area of trying to super impose regulatory requirements established by the FAA for type certificated aircraft onto the far thinner regulatory arena that EAB aircraft operate in. Where is the regulation that requires a POH for an EAB aircraft? Where is the regulation that says who is authorized to sign the flight manual supplement for an EAB aircraft POH?##

> 

> 4) "I really appreciate you taking the time to educate me."

> 

> It is my pleasure, sir.

> 

> 5) "Thanks again for your assistance."

> 

> You are welcome any time.

> 

> 'OC'

> 

> **PS: I would recommend extensive practice under VFR in VMC conditions with your aircraft's avionics installation before venturing into IFR under IMC conditions.

> 

> ##PS: I am not saying that a good POH / supplement is not needed for safe flight in EAB aircraft, just that the FAA does not mandate those items by regulations and it is up to the builder / pilot of the EAB aircraft to create what is needed for safe flight for him and his aircraft.

> 

> ========================================================

> From: Curt

> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 3:26 PM

> To: 'Owen Baker '

> Subject: RE: Equipping experimental for IFR

> 

> Owen,

> So in conclusion, the 430w does not need any kind of test prior to using it in IFR conditions?  There are no mandatory tests like you would see in the VOR area where you're required to check the accuracy? You don't need a signed flight manual supplement to go along with the POH?

> 

> I do know about the monthly nav data updates from Jeppesen.  I did purchase the expensive annual update package for my intended area of flying.

> 

> Thanks again for your assistance.  I really appreciate you taking the time to educate me.

> 

> Curt

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 5:49 am Post subject: Equipping experimental for IFR

5/17/2014

  

 Hello Curt Stein, You wrote:

  

 1) “In the case of the pitot static and  transponder, they get tested every

24 months.  Is this test different  for VFR versus IFR?”

  

 The answer to your question is found in 14 CFR  Sections 91.411 and 91.413 that require these inspections, and the related  Appendices E and F of Part 43. (All  available at the FAA web  site.)

  

 A) 91.411 applies to any operation under IFR  in controlled airspace.

  

 B) 91.413 is a bit more complicated. Please  see that section and its referenced section 91.215 for details. 

  

 C) It is unfortunate that the term “pitot  static and transponder checks” has come into common use when describing the  tests required by 91.411 and 91.413. A review of those sections and the relevant  appendicies of Part 43 shows that no test of the pitot system is required, but  that extensive and detailed tests of the static system and transponder are  required to include the altimeter viewed by the pilot, and the automatic  altitude reporting system which consists of the encoder and the transponder.  

  

 I guess that we are just stuck with that  unfortunate common terminology, but I strongly urge all EAB builders and pilots  to become familiar with the actual requirements of the regulations, including  the technicians and organizations that are permitted / required to perform the  tests involved.

  

 2) “Is it  required to have a backup instruments to the EFIS ?  I know it's the  better

practice to have those, but are they required in  experimental?”

  

 The regulatory requirements for EAB  instruments have been covered in our previous exchange postings and the attached  document.

  

 ‘OC’

 



 'O C' Baker  says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand  information."

  

 ==========================================

  

Time: 04:49:40 AM PST US

Subject: Re:  Equipping experimental for IFR

From: "curts63" <curt.stein(at)verizon.net>

Ok, thanks.  In the case of the  pitot static and transponder, they get tested every

24 months.  Is this  test different for VFR versus IFR?  



For the Garmin 430W, I've heard  that this requires a ground test and flight test?

Is this something that  needs to be repeated on a standard interval?  



Is it required to  have a backup instruments to the EFIS ?  I know it's the better

practice  to have those, but are they required in  experimental?



Curt

ABEA_Minimum_Inst_Requirements_10.doc

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