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recapen(at)earthlink.net
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 Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 9:39 am Post subject: Induction leaks where and how did you find them |
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Folks,
I'm still chasing a small induction leak impacting only my #1 cylinder.
I'm trying to list all of the potential places and methods of testing.
Places so far:
Upper injection port fitting or plug
Injection fitting assembly
Lower injection port fitting or plug
Intake runner in sump
Intake runner connecting hose
Intake runner pipe
Intake runner gasket at cylinder head
Valve cover gasket
Rocker arm oil drain fitting at engine case
Rocker arm oil drain fitting connection hose
Rocker arm oil drain fitting at cylinder head
(last four most likely with loose intake valve guide as a leak path contributor)
Testing methods so far:
Tighten worm clamp screws
Replace gasket
Replace hose
Spraying water on suspected area with engine running (DANGER WILL ROBINSON!)
Where have you found them and how have you found them?
Thanks,
Ralph Capen
RV6A N822AR "Patience" (at) N06 with 210 hrs on IO360B1F6 with AFP Injection
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BarrettWF(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 9:54 am Post subject: Induction leaks where and how did you find them |
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Blow smoke.
--
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 3:08 pm Post subject: Induction leaks where and how did you find them |
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Ralph:
If you suspect an Intake Leak on ONLY one cylinder keep your search small. Start by:
- REMOVING the Intake Tube.
- Replace the Intake Gasket.
- AND seal it with High Temp RTV.
- CLEAN the mating surfaces.
- Replace the rubber connection between the Intake Tube and the Engine
- Replace the Hose Clamps with GOOD clamps of a know brand - BREEZE Corp. Clamps.
- Now, this is a tricky one - I had many engine problems and lost my #1 cyl in flight at least 3 times... I lost count! The problem was: There are TWO DIFFERENT thicknesses for the intake pipe and the mounting clamp/flange. IF you have a thin intake tube and a counter bored mounting clamp for a thick tube you WILL have an intake leak. The way to check this is: When you insert the intake tube in the clamp the Top of the Tube will be FLUSH with the top of the mounting flange. If it sits below someone messed up.
I will be reading this thread, I am VERY interested is finding out if anyone has tricks on checking for Intake Leaks. One Trick that I know of is to take CO2 gas and spray it around the intake joint points. IF there is a leak the engine will stumble. This trick is Better than water as it is a gas and can be controlled with a small diameter pipe that can be aimed. Also no spray back.
Best of luck,
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Ralph E. Capen <recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:
[quote] --> LycomingEngines-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)>
Folks,
I'm still chasing a small induction leak impacting only my #1 cylinder.
I'm trying to list all of the potential places and methods of testing.
Places so far:
Upper injection port fitting or plug
Injection fitting assembly
Lower injection port fitting or plug
Intake runner in sump
Intake runner connecting hose
Intake runner pipe
Intake runner gasket at cylinder head
Valve cover gasket
Rocker arm oil drain fitting at engine case
Rocker arm oil drain fitting connection hose
Rocker arm oil drain fitting at cylinder head
(last four most likely with loose intake valve guide as a leak path contributor)
Testing methods so far:
Tighten worm clamp screws
Replace gasket
Replace hose
Spraying water on suspected area with engine running (DANGER WILL ROBINSON!)
Where have you found them and how have you found them?
Thanks,
Ralph Capen
RV6A N822AR "Patience" (at) N06 with 210 hrs on IO360B1F6 with AFP Injection
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="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 5:41 am Post subject: Induction leaks where and how did you find them |
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Neil:
That may very well be true and I agree with you. But, It can't hurt! Well, it can if one is totally sloppy with the RTV.
The seal without the RTV cannot be 100% verified so a simple light smear of RTV insures an airtight seal, as well as holding the gasket in-place for easy assembly. Of course you are a representative of Continental Motors and very well should reiterate Continental's policy. Yet, there are other ways of doing things... Not authorized, yet, not wrong either. This could fall under Experimental if the owner and engine are so registered.
The fellow is looking for a intake leak, very difficult to find, so my suggestion to him was steps that would eliminate the possibility. My reasoning is; better to eliminate, than to leave any question of doubt.
Thank you for your input and concern.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 8:53 PM, Neal George <ngeorge(at)continentalmotors.aero (ngeorge(at)continentalmotors.aero)> wrote:
[quote] Gentlemen -
You will not find RTV listed among the approved sealants for either brand of engine.
The only place it is acceptable is sealing gaps in baffles.
Neal George
Continental Motors
Technical Support / Customer Service
Sent from my iPhone
| Quote: | - Replace the Intake Gasket.
- AND seal it with High Temp RTV.
s-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?LycomingEngines-List
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_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 6:57 am Post subject: Induction leaks where and how did you find them |
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RTV and gasoline don't mix well. The RTV will swell when exposed to it for just a short while, in fact gas works great for removing RTV from a painted surface or even engine parts. Using it on the induction system would be a bad idea.
That's my experience.
Tim
On May 30, 2014, at 6:40 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Neil:
That may very well be true and I agree with you. But, It can't hurt! Well, it can if one is totally sloppy with the RTV.
The seal without the RTV cannot be 100% verified so a simple light smear of RTV insures an airtight seal, as well as holding the gasket in-place for easy assembly. Of course you are a representative of Continental Motors and very well should reiterate Continental's policy. Yet, there are other ways of doing things... Not authorized, yet, not wrong either. This could fall under Experimental if the owner and engine are so registered.
The fellow is looking for a intake leak, very difficult to find, so my suggestion to him was steps that would eliminate the possibility. My reasoning is; better to eliminate, than to leave any question of doubt.
Thank you for your input and concern.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 8:53 PM, Neal George <ngeorge(at)continentalmotors.aero (ngeorge(at)continentalmotors.aero)> wrote:
| Quote: | Gentlemen -
You will not find RTV listed among the approved sealants for either brand of engine.
The only place it is acceptable is sealing gaps in baffles.
Neal George
Continental Motors
Technical Support / Customer Service
Sent from my iPhone
|
[b]
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 7:22 am Post subject: Induction leaks where and how did you find them |
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Tim:
You are correct, there are RTV's that will fail with AvGas & MoGas, but there are RTV's that are used for sealing gas tanks. If I recall correctly Dow Corning 732 is one of them. Automotive High Temp RTV which is called out for Gasket Making will work very well in this case. I have at least 8 engine rebuilds using RTV and never had a problem. If you have ever assembled an exhaust system on an engine you know there is P.I.T.A. step of pulling up all the flanges and no-blow Gaskets into place without cursing too much. In this case as with the intake; a little RTV works very well. Yea, some will argue that the RTV will not handle the exhaust temps, but, I have never found that to be a problem. Sometimes you have to think outside the box or in this case beyond the gasket.
BTW, I do NOT recommend RTV for tank sealing even though it is recommended else where.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 10:54 AM, Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net (tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
[quote]RTV and gasoline don't mix well. The RTV will swell when exposed to it for just a short while, in fact gas works great for removing RTV from a painted surface or even engine parts. Using it on the induction system would be a bad idea.
That's my experience.
Tim
On May 30, 2014, at 6:40 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Neil:
That may very well be true and I agree with you. But, It can't hurt! Well, it can if one is totally sloppy with the RTV.
The seal without the RTV cannot be 100% verified so a simple light smear of RTV insures an airtight seal, as well as holding the gasket in-place for easy assembly. Of course you are a representative of Continental Motors and very well should reiterate Continental's policy. Yet, there are other ways of doing things... Not authorized, yet, not wrong either. This could fall under Experimental if the owner and engine are so registered.
The fellow is looking for a intake leak, very difficult to find, so my suggestion to him was steps that would eliminate the possibility. My reasoning is; better to eliminate, than to leave any question of doubt.
Thank you for your input and concern.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 8:53 PM, Neal George <ngeorge(at)continentalmotors.aero (ngeorge(at)continentalmotors.aero)> wrote:
| Quote: | Gentlemen -
You will not find RTV listed among the approved sealants for either brand of engine.
The only place it is acceptable is sealing gaps in baffles.
Neal George
Continental Motors
Technical Support / Customer Service
Sent from my iPhone
|
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| Quote: |
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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[b]
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Dale Ensing
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 571
Location: Aero Plantation Weddington NC
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 8:10 am Post subject: Induction leaks where and how did you find them |
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Florosilicone RTV sealants such as Dow Corning 730 are impervious to 100LL and auto fuels. I have a test strip of two pieces of aluminum, bonded together with 730, that has been
immersed in 100LL for eleven years with no swelling or deterioration. My RV-6A wing tanks inspection plates and fuel level sensor mounting plates are installed with Dow Corning 730 florosilicone. No leaks in ten years!
BTW ..the 730 made it much easier to do Van's wing tank SBs than my friend's tanks done with Proseal.
Dale Ensing
On May 30, 2014, at 11:22 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Tim:
You are correct, there are RTV's that will fail with AvGas & MoGas, but there are RTV's that are used for sealing gas tanks. If I recall correctly Dow Corning 732 is one of them. Automotive High Temp RTV which is called out for Gasket Making will work very well in this case. I have at least 8 engine rebuilds using RTV and never had a problem. If you have ever assembled an exhaust system on an engine you know there is P.I.T.A. step of pulling up all the flanges and no-blow Gaskets into place without cursing too much. In this case as with the intake; a little RTV works very well. Yea, some will argue that the RTV will not handle the exhaust temps, but, I have never found that to be a problem. Sometimes you have to think outside the box or in this case beyond the gasket.
BTW, I do NOT recommend RTV for tank sealing even though it is recommended else where.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 10:54 AM, Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net (tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | RTV and gasoline don't mix well. The RTV will swell when exposed to it for just a short while, in fact gas works great for removing RTV from a painted surface or even engine parts. Using it on the induction system would be a bad idea.
That's my experience.
Tim
On May 30, 2014, at 6:40 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Neil:
That may very well be true and I agree with you. But, It can't hurt! Well, it can if one is totally sloppy with the RTV.
The seal without the RTV cannot be 100% verified so a simple light smear of RTV insures an airtight seal, as well as holding the gasket in-place for easy assembly. Of course you are a representative of Continental Motors and very well should reiterate Continental's policy. Yet, there are other ways of doing things... Not authorized, yet, not wrong either. This could fall under Experimental if the owner and engine are so registered.
The fellow is looking for a intake leak, very difficult to find, so my suggestion to him was steps that would eliminate the possibility. My reasoning is; better to eliminate, than to leave any question of doubt.
Thank you for your input and concern.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 8:53 PM, Neal George <ngeorge(at)continentalmotors.aero (ngeorge(at)continentalmotors.aero)> wrote:
| Quote: | Gentlemen -
You will not find RTV listed among the approved sealants for either brand of engine.
The only place it is acceptable is sealing gaps in baffles.
Neal George
Continental Motors
Technical Support / Customer Service
Sent from my iPhone
|
|
| Quote: |
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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Dale Ensing
RV-6A
Aero Plantation
Weddington NC |
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scott.sellmeyer(at)gmail.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 8:17 am Post subject: Induction leaks where and how did you find them |
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One fairly easy method is to use a compression check fitting plugged into one cylinder and an air compressor to pressurize the induction system. Â You'll have to tape-off or otherwise seal your air filter or ram air, etc. Â Make sure the cylinder's intake valve is OPEN and then the pressure will flow throughout the induction system. Â Spray a soapy water solution around every joint & fitting, and look for the tell-tale bubbles.
I would try this before I start replacing parts/seals.
Scott
Mooney M20J
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 6:08 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] Ralph:
If you suspect an Intake Leak on ONLY one cylinder keep your search small. Â Start by:
- REMOVING the Intake Tube.
- Replace the Intake Gasket.
- AND seal it with High Temp RTV.
- CLEAN the mating surfaces.
- Replace the rubber connection between the Intake Tube and the Engine
- Replace the Hose Clamps with GOOD clamps of a know brand - BREEZE Corp. Clamps.
- Now, this is a tricky one - I had many engine problems and lost my #1 cyl in flight at least 3 times... I lost count! Â The problem was: Â There are TWO DIFFERENT thicknesses for the intake pipe and the mounting clamp/flange. Â IF you have a thin intake tube and a counter bored mounting clamp for a thick tube you WILL have an intake leak. Â The way to check this is: Â When you insert the intake tube in the clamp the Top of the Tube will be FLUSH with the top of the mounting flange. Â If it sits below someone messed up.
I will be reading this thread, I am VERY interested is finding out if anyone has tricks on checking for Intake Leaks. Â One Trick that I know of is to take CO2 gas and spray it around the intake joint points. Â IF there is a leak the engine will stumble. This trick is Better than water as it is a gas and can be controlled with a small diameter pipe that can be aimed. Â Also no spray back.
Best of luck,
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
[b]
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