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TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces

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fasilpereira

Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 86
Location: Brazil

Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 2:33 pm Post subject: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces

I'm starting to work on the TR-4 kit that I bought from Ted Scott.



I've removed all the interior that came with the project. The car seats were too heavy for me and the insulation material was flammable....



My project came with an electric actuator partially installed on the Flap System. The parts for the original Johnson bar system was included too.



As the Johnson bar system is so light (or the electric actuator so heavy?), I'm thinking on installing the original system (KIS principle)....



I'm just worried about the actuation forces on the Johnson bar system. How heavy is the original TR-4 flap system?



Best regards,



Fabricio

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_________________
Fabricio Pereira
Engineer / Pilot

wschertz(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 3:17 pm Post subject: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces

Well -- when I built mine, there was talk about getting more flap travel as 

being desirable, so I installed the Johnson bar system, but changed the 

attach point to get a little more travel for the second notch of flaps.



Problem is - the force to engage the second notch when flying is more than I 

can generate, so I only ended up with one notch of flaps. If I were to 

really pull hard and get it into the second notch, I know that I would not 

be able to get it out of the setting if I had to do a go-around.



I cannot comment on what the force would be with the original attach point, 

so someone else will have to comment.

Bill Schertz



--

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jerzy_krasinski(at)sbcglo
Guest

Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 3:43 pm Post subject: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces

I had a similar "problem" , I worried about the forces.

I extended the flap arm, and in addition, since some complained about the  low deflection  of the flaps, I doubled the the flap deflection angle. All of this was an unnecessary trouble. Extending the flap angle for more than ~20 degrees does not do anything other than steeper approach angle. In a way ts good to have, If you mess up  an approach and arrive too high, no big deal, With flaps at 40 degrees you can loose any altitude. But I think it was not worth the trouble.

At 40 deg they work as air breaks. I typically use only the lowest setting of the flaps, which is several degrees

 As far as the forces go do not bother with motors, longer arms, hydraulics, pyrotechnic actuators etc.

The original arm and the whole flap drive system are simple and good enough.

Jerzy

 

     On Monday, May 26, 2014 6:19 PM, William Schertz <wschertz(at)comcast.net> wrote:

  

  



 --> KIS-List message posted by: "William  Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net (wschertz(at)comcast.net)>



Well -- when I built mine, there was talk about getting more flap travel as 

being desirable, so I installed the Johnson bar system, but changed the 

attach point to get a little more travel for the second notch of flaps.



Problem is - the force to engage the second notch when flying is more than I 

can generate, so I only ended up with one notch of flaps. If I were to 

really pull hard and get it into the second notch, I know that I would not 

be able to get it out of the setting if I had to do a go-around.



I cannot comment on what the force would be with the original attach point, 

so someone else will have to comment.

Bill Schertz



--

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sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 6:57 pm Post subject: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces

I used a 110 lb force electric actuator with 3 inches of travel on my TR-1 and get about 30 degees of flaps in the air.  It is light, maybe 2 pounds.  It has internal limit switches so it is simple to instalI.  We plan on doing something similar with the TR-4 we are building.   Here is what we might use, the 4 inch stroke....



http://www.servocity.com/html/180_lbs__thrust_linear_actuato.html#.U4P5Gtq9KSM



The big advantage to electric flaps is that you can narrow the center comsole and get an extra 1.5-2 inches of hip room which made a big difference on my Tr-1.  I put all the extra hip room on the pilot side.



I am also toying with the idea of installing a split flap on the fuselage belly between the wing flaps that could also be used at high speed as a speed brake.  



Scott



 	  Quote: 	
		   On May 26, 2014, at 3:33 PM, "fasilpereira" <fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I'm starting to work on the TR-4 kit that I bought from Ted Scott.

 

 I've removed all the interior that came with the project. The car seats were too heavy for me and the insulation material was flammable....

 

 My project came with an electric actuator partially installed on the Flap System. The parts for the original Johnson bar system was included too.

 

 As the Johnson bar system is so light (or the electric actuator so heavy?), I'm thinking on installing the original system (KIS principle)....

 

 I'm just worried about the actuation forces on the Johnson bar system. How heavy is the original TR-4 flap system?

 

 Best regards,

 

 Fabricio

 

 --------

 Fabricio Pereira

 Engineer / Pilot

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423824#423824

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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 6:02 am Post subject: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces

I have the original Johnson bar with two "notches" (12 - 24 degree) of flaps and they are more than sufficient for the airplane.Â I normally use the 1st "notch" (12 degrees) of flaps when I turn base and put the 2nd "notch" (24 degrees) onÂ final. I only put in the 2ndÂ "notch" whenÂ the runway is easily within reach to get a steeper approach angle and slow the airplane down some more. It makes for touching down at 65Kt fairly easy.

  Â 

Rich told me that if you need it, you can slip the airplane with full flaps as long as you were below 96Kt with no problem. I have done this a fewÂ times and the airplane drops like a rock.Â 



  



On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 6:33 PM, fasilpereira <fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com (fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]  --> KIS-List message posted by: "fasilpereira" <fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com (fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com)>

 

 I'm starting to work on the TR-4 kit that I bought from Ted Scott.

 

 I've removed all the interior that came with the project. The car seats were too heavy for me and the insulation material was flammable....

 

 My project came with an electric actuator partially installed on the Flap System. The parts for the original Johnson bar system was included too.

 

 As the Johnson bar system is so light (or the electric actuator so heavy?), I'm thinking on installing the original system (KIS principle)....

 

 I'm just worried about the actuation forces on the Johnson bar system. How heavy is the original TR-4 flap system?

 

 Best regards,

 

 Fabricio

 

 --------

 Fabricio Pereira

 Engineer / Pilot

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423824#423824

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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fasilpereira

Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 86
Location: Brazil

Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 6:04 am Post subject: Re: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces

Galin,



what about the forces to set the second notch? Is it acceptable on normal flap operating speeds?



About the deflections, I've seen on an old post something about 10 and 20 deg. What are the correct numbers (0/10/20 or 0/12/24)?



Fabricio

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_________________
Fabricio Pereira
Engineer / Pilot

galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 3:56 pm Post subject: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces

Fabricio:

Â 

I actually measured my flap extension and they areÂ 0, 12 and 24 degrees.

Â 

I find the 2nd "notch" (24 degrees) needs more force than the 1st "notch" (12 degrees) but nothing very hard. It isÂ a good thing since it is a noticeable difference inÂ force between the two flap extensions. It makes it very difficult to accidentally selectÂ 24 degrees.

  

On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 10:04 AM, fasilpereira <fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com (fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

  [quote]--> KIS-List message posted by: "fasilpereira" <fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com (fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com)>

   

 Galin,

 

 what about the forces to set the second notch? Is it acceptable on normal flap operating speeds?

 

 About the deflections, I've seen on an old post something about 10 and 20 deg. What are the correct numbers (0/10/20 or 0/12/24)?

 

 Fabricio

 

 --------

 Fabricio Pereira

 Engineer / Pilot

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423963#423963

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 5:04 pm Post subject: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces

I found that after I built my TR-1, that has a full flap  setting of 28 deg., that when lifted the trailing edge of the flap during the  preflight inspection ( flaps extended ) that the slop in the control system  allowed the flaps to only have 21 deg. Simulating in-flight air loads. I  extended the flap selector slot and added a third notch so that I get 28 deg.  loaded. Maybe the 4 is a more rigid system then the 1.

  

 I know of another TR-1 that has the same condition. I would be  interested in others experience with this test.

  

 Tim N52TY



   From: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galin  Hernandez

Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2014 4:56 PM

To:  kis-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: TR-4 Flap Actuation  Forces

 

  Fabricio:

  

 I actually measured my flap extension and they are 0, 12 and 24  degrees.

  

 I find the 2nd "notch" (24 degrees) needs more force than the 1st "notch"  (12 degrees) but nothing very hard. It is a good thing since it is a  noticeable difference in force between the two flap extensions. It makes it  very difficult to accidentally select 24 degrees.



 



 On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 10:04 AM, fasilpereira <fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com (fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    KIS-List message posted by: "fasilpereira" <fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com (fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com)>



Galin,



what    about the forces to set the second notch? Is it acceptable on normal flap    operating speeds?



About the deflections, I've seen on an old post    something about 10 and 20 deg. What are the correct numbers (0/10/20 or    0/12/24)?



Fabricio



--------

Fabricio Pereira

Engineer /    Pilot





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423963#423963



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samdenson

Joined: 06 Jun 2015
Posts: 2

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:12 am Post subject: Re: TR-4 Flap Actuation Forces

someone hacked my email, got to make new account, guyz. Thank you for all replies

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