 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
william(at)wbliss.co.uk
Guest
|
 Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:25 am Post subject: coolant thermostat uk |
 |
|
Hello all
G-WUFF is running a bit cool. I need to fit a coolant thermostat and
plan to follow Standard Mod SM12915. Only problem is that Conair no
longer sell the thermostat and will not tell me anything about it.
Does anyone know of a suitable thermostat valve with 25mm outlets?
William Bliss
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mau11(at)orange.fr
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:13 am Post subject: coolant thermostat uk |
|
|
Hi Bill,
I send to you the thread to the website where I buy my oil thermostat.
He work perfectly.
You specified 25 mm outlet (it is easy to buy on commercial shop) in
your country
http://www.dream-machine.fr/store/com/combi-split-50-67/moteur-type2/circuit-d-huile-1/radiateurs-d-huile-et-accessoires-1/adaptateurs-1/thermostat-d-huile-tous-modeles.html
I join picture of mine
Good evening
Michel AUVRAY
Builder 145 (912S)
Le 03/06/2014 19:24, William Bliss a écrit :
| Quote: |
Hello all
G-WUFF is running a bit cool. I need to fit a coolant thermostat and
plan to follow Standard Mod SM12915. Only problem is that Conair no
longer sell the thermostat and will not tell me anything about it.
Does anyone know of a suitable thermostat valve with 25mm outlets?
William Bliss
|
---
Ce courrier électronique ne contient aucun virus ou logiciel malveillant parce que la protection avast! Antivirus est active.
http://www.avast.com
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
872.92 KB |
| Viewed: |
8558 Time(s) |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:42 am Post subject: coolant thermostat uk |
|
|
Hi William,
I have the coolant thermostat kit from Conair, but decided not to install it. I can sell it to you at the original price plus postage.
Cheers,
Karl
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
keithhickling(at)clear.ne
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:34 pm Post subject: coolant thermostat uk |
|
|
Karl,
I have been planning to install a coolant thermostat too. Could you please post the details of the manufacturer or supplier, model no etc so I can try to source one if Conair no longer supply it?
Many thanks,
Keith Hickling.
From: Karl Heindl (kheindl(at)msn.com)
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 6:41 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: coolant thermostat uk
Hi William,
I have the coolant thermostat kit from Conair, but decided not to install it. I can sell it to you at the original price plus postage.
Cheers,
Karl
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:56 pm Post subject: coolant thermostat uk |
|
|
Keith, Karl, I have been looking at this range of oil and water thermostats from the German company Silent Hektic:
http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_912_Thermo.htm
Their products look well made (though I haven't bought anything yet). Attached is a translation fyi.
Nigel
(I have no commercial connection with this organisation)
On 04/06/2014 00:30, Keith Hickling wrote:
| Quote: | Karl,
I have been planning to install a coolant thermostat too. Could you please post the details of the manufacturer or supplier, model no etc so I can try to source one if Conair no longer supply it?
Many thanks,
Keith Hickling.
From: Karl Heindl (kheindl(at)msn.com)
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 6:41 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: coolant thermostat uk
Hi William,
I have the coolant thermostat kit from Conair, but decided not to install it. I can sell it to you at the original price plus postage.
Cheers,
Karl
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
| Description: |
|
Download |
| Filename: |
Silent_Hektic_Cooling.pdf |
| Filesize: |
996.88 KB |
| Downloaded: |
1651 Time(s) |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
christoph.both(at)acadiau
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:14 pm Post subject: coolant thermostat uk |
|
|
Just bought one of these on my trip to Germany and look forward to installing the oil/cooling water exchange unit. My issue is a used oil rad for the 80hp engine but I have a 100hp. Runs fine in cruise but climb is limited to 5 min at full throttle going over 130 degrees celsius oil temps. I decided to stay away from removing the old radiator, though, as Silent Hektik recommends as in case of cooling fluid loss my engine will be toast in seconds compared with keeping the old rad and flying home in limp mode.
Just my thoughts,
Christoph Both
#223
Wolfville, Canada
From: Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)>
Reply-To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)" <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 at 2:55 AM
To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)" <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: coolant thermostat uk
Keith, Karl, I have been looking at this range of oil and water thermostats from the German company Silent Hektic:
http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_912_Thermo.htm
Their products look well made (though I haven't bought anything yet). Attached is a translation fyi.
Nigel
(I have no commercial connection with this organisation)
On 04/06/2014 00:30, Keith Hickling wrote:
| Quote: | Karl,
I have been planning to install a coolant thermostat too. Could you please post the details of the manufacturer or supplier, model no etc so I can try to source one if Conair no longer supply it?
Many thanks,
Keith Hickling.
From: Karl Heindl (kheindl(at)msn.com)
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 6:41 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: coolant thermostat uk
Hi William,
I have the coolant thermostat kit from Conair, but decided not to install it. I can sell it to you at the original price plus postage.
Cheers,
Karl
|
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:15 pm Post subject: coolant thermostat uk |
|
|
I would be very interested to hear how successful this is once fitted and tested (either on or off list).
With regards to oil over-temp should the water coolant be lost, I think you might be surprised how resilient a modern full-synthetic oil is (which can be used in a 9 series engine as long as you don't run 100LL). On a reduced power decent I think you would get away with it.
Nigel
On 04/06/2014 07:13, Christoph Both wrote:
[quote] Just bought one of these on my trip to Germany and look forward to installing the oil/cooling water exchange unit. My issue is a used oil rad for the 80hp engine but I have a 100hp. Runs fine in cruise but climb is limited to 5 min at full throttle going over 130 degrees celsius oil temps. I decided to stay away from removing the old radiator, though, as Silent Hektik recommends as in case of cooling fluid loss my engine will be toast in seconds compared with keeping the old rad and flying home in limp mode.
Just my thoughts,
Christoph Both
#223
Wolfville, Canada
From: Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)>
Reply-To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)" <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 at 2:55 AM
To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)" <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: coolant thermostat uk
Keith, Karl, I have been looking at this range of oil and water thermostats from the German company Silent Hektic:
http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_912_Thermo.htm
Their products look well made (though I haven't bought anything yet). Attached is a translation fyi.
Nigel
(I have no commercial connection with this organisation)
On 04/06/2014 00:30, Keith Hickling wrote:
| Quote: | Karl,
I have been planning to install a coolant thermostat too. Could you please post the details of the manufacturer or supplier, model no etc so I can try to source one if Conair no longer supply it?
Many thanks,
Keith Hickling.
From: Karl Heindl (kheindl(at)msn.com)
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 6:41 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: coolant thermostat uk
Hi William,
I have the coolant thermostat kit from Conair, but decided not to install it. I can sell it to you at the original price plus postage.
Cheers,
Karl
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Richard Wheelwright
Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 111
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:03 am Post subject: coolant thermostat uk |
|
|
Nigel,
I find with the water Coolant stat, that the engine temp will climb to 100 degrees on a warm day on clime out. once cruse is established, temperatures settle down to 80 degrees. There is no coverings on the radiators and allows full cooling. Everything as it should be, I'm very happy with the stat.
On Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 8:03, Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk> wrote:
I would be very interested to hear how successful this is once fitted and tested (either on or off list). With regards to oil over-temp should the water coolant be lost, I think you might be surprised how resilient a modern full-synthetic oil is (which can be used in a 9 series engine as long as you don't run 100LL). On a reduced power decent I think you would get away with it. Nigel On 04/06/2014 07:13, Christoph Both wrote:
Just bought one of these on my trip to Germany and look forward to installing the oil/cooling water exchange unit. My issue is a used oil rad for the 80hp engine but I have a 100hp. Runs fine in cruise but climb is limited to 5 min at full throttle going over 130 degrees celsius oil temps. I decided to stay away from removing the old radiator, though, as Silent Hektik recommends as in case of cooling fluid loss my engine will be toast in seconds compared with keeping the old rad and flying home in limp mode.
Just my thoughts,
Christoph Both
#223
Wolfville, Canada
From: Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)> Reply-To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)" <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)> Date: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 at 2:55 AM To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)" <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)> Subject: Re: coolant thermostat uk
Keith, Karl, I have been looking at this range of oil and water thermostats from the German company Silent Hektic: http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_912_Thermo.htm Their products look well made (though I haven't bought anything yet). Attached is a translation fyi. Nigel (I have no commercial connection with this organisation) On 04/06/2014 00:30, Keith Hickling wrote:
| Quote: | | #yiv9526788064 #yiv9526788064 -- .yiv9526788064hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv9526788064 body.yiv9526788064hmmessage { font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;} #yiv9526788064 |
Karl,
I have been planning to install a coolant thermostat too. Could you please post the details of the manufacturer or supplier, model no etc so I can try to source one if Conair no longer supply it?
Many thanks,
Keith Hickling.
From: Karl Heindl (kheindl(at)msn.com)
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 6:41 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Europa-List: coolant thermostat uk
Hi William,
I have the coolant thermostat kit from Conair, but decided not to install it. I can sell it to you at the original price plus postage.
Cheers,
Karl
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
_________________
Richard Wheelwright
G-IRPW
First Flight 24th July 2013 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cakeykev(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:07 am Post subject: coolant thermostat uk |
|
|
Unfortunately my 912S Europa suffered coolant loss on climb out last autumn so low uk outside temperature and still even though the pilot throttled straight back and landed straight away the damage to the engine was all heads scrap and 1 barrel scrap.
Kevin Challis
G ODJG
On 4 Jun 2014, at 09:03, Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)> wrote:
[quote] I would be very interested to hear how successful this is once fitted and tested (either on or off list).
With regards to oil over-temp should the water coolant be lost, I think you might be surprised how resilient a modern full-synthetic oil is (which can be used in a 9 series engine as long as you don't run 100LL). On a reduced power decent I think you would get away with it.
Nigel
On 04/06/2014 07:13, Christoph Both wrote:
| Quote: | Just bought one of these on my trip to Germany and look forward to installing the oil/cooling water exchange unit. My issue is a used oil rad for the 80hp engine but I have a 100hp. Runs fine in cruise but climb is limited to 5 min at full throttle going over 130 degrees celsius oil temps. I decided to stay away from removing the old radiator, though, as Silent Hektik recommends as in case of cooling fluid loss my engine will be toast in seconds compared with keeping the old rad and flying home in limp mode.
Just my thoughts,
Christoph Both
#223
Wolfville, Canada
From: Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)>
Reply-To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)" <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 at 2:55 AM
To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)" <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: coolant thermostat uk
Keith, Karl, I have been looking at this range of oil and water thermostats from the German company Silent Hektic:
http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_912_Thermo.htm
Their products look well made (though I haven't bought anything yet). Attached is a translation fyi.
Nigel
(I have no commercial connection with this organisation)
On 04/06/2014 00:30, Keith Hickling wrote:
| Quote: | Karl,
I have been planning to install a coolant thermostat too. Could you please post the details of the manufacturer or supplier, model no etc so I can try to source one if Conair no longer supply it?
Many thanks,
Keith Hickling.
From: Karl Heindl (kheindl(at)msn.com)
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 6:41 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: coolant thermostat uk
Hi William,
I have the coolant thermostat kit from Conair, but decided not to install it. I can sell it to you at the original price plus postage.
Cheers,
Karl
|
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gilles.thesee(at)free.fr
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:25 am Post subject: coolant thermostat uk |
|
|
Nigel Graham a écrit :
| Quote: | I would be very interested to hear how successful this is once fitted
and tested (either on or off list).
With regards to oil over-temp should the water coolant be lost, I
think you might be surprised how resilient a modern full-synthetic oil
is (which can be used in a 9 series engine as long as you don't run
100LL). On a reduced power decent I think you would get away with it.
|
Nigel and all,
I respectfully beg to differ with the above statement.
As some listers here may know I've been conducting extensive oil and
water cooling tests on a 914.
Whereas in-flight heat rejection through oil and water actual numbers
are not totally in agreement with the Rotax ground bench numbers, the
coolant plays a key role, and total loss of coolant is definitely a
major issue. I seriously question the chances of engine in-flight
survival for more than a very short time at idle.
If you happen to have solid data on experiments on Rotax engines with
partial or total loss of coolant I would be much interested and willing
to publish them on Contrails !
Concerning the coolant thermostat option, the question is, do you value
lightness, simplicity and low drag or not ?
And above all, do you have ample cooling, since the idea is to always
provide excess cooling and just throttle the oil flow to help oil
warming up.
A thermostat helps oil *warming*, not cooling, at the price of
additionnal weight and constant cooling drag penalty.
As I understand that some Europa builders experience marginal cooling,
they may wish to first fix the cooling airflow issue.
FWIW,
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:24 am Post subject: coolant thermostat uk |
|
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 06/04/2014 12:24 PM, GTH wrote:
| Quote: | Concerning the coolant thermostat option, the question is, do you
value lightness, simplicity and low drag or not ? A thermostat
helps oil *warming*, not cooling, at the price of additionnal
weight and constant cooling drag penalty.
|
I was waiting for someone to bring this up. 
It is *much* better to create a cowl flap at the air exit to regulate
the amount of cooling air through the system.
1) It lowers drag, and thus gives you either less fuel consumption,
extended range, or higher speed.
2) It is easier and safer. With the well known trim servo it is easy
to set up a flap in the air exit that can be retracted against the air
flow. If it breaks, the air flow will push the flap open.
Cooling thermostats come with extra hose connections, and are not
without issues themselves.
I have such a system and it works perfect. With a trim alike button I
can modulate the cowl flap and see an almost immediate response on the
water temp gauge.
I can do something that a coolant thermostat not can do: anticipate.
Before commencing a long descents (or before starting to climb) I can
adjust the cowl flap. Give some extra cooling before starting a
prolonged climb, or let the engine heat up a bit more before pulling
the power for a long descent.
Frans
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)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=LGHQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
iancook_1(at)hotmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:51 am Post subject: coolant thermostat uk |
|
|
Frans,
I would be most interested in a few more details as my Motor Glider is just going through the certification process for the LAA in the UK, and this would be a very useful modification to include.
Regards
Ian cook
> Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 14:13:14 +0200
| Quote: | From: frans(at)privatepilots.nl
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: coolant thermostat uk
--> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 06/04/2014 12:24 PM, GTH wrote:
> Concerning the coolant thermostat option, the question is, do you
> value lightness, simplicity and low drag or not ? A thermostat
> helps oil *warming*, not cooling, at the price of additionnal
> weight and constant cooling drag penalty.
I was waiting for someone to bring this up.
It is *much* better to create a cowl flap at the air exit to regulate
the amount of cooling air through the system.
1) It lowers drag, and thus gives you either less fuel consumption,
extended range, or higher speed.
2) It is easier and safer. With the well known trim servo it is easy
to set up a flap in the air exit that can be retracted against the air
flow. If it breaks, the air flow will push the flap open.
Cooling thermostats come with extra hose connections, and are not
without issues themselves.
I have such a system and it works perfect. With a trim alike button I
can modulate the cowl flap and see an almost immediate response on the
water temp gauge.
I can do something that a coolant thermostat not can do: anticipate.
Before commencing a long descents (or before starting to climb) I can
adjust the cowl flap. Give some extra cooling before starting a
prolonged climb, or let the engine heat up a bit more before pulling
the power for a long descent.
Frans
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)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=LGHQ< Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>===
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:38 am Post subject: coolant thermostat uk |
|
|
Gilles et al,
.... and I respectfully bow to your testing and experience.
The importance of the coolant system is certainly not lost on me. While
you are probably not aware of it, I have done a lot of work to develop a
fully ducted water/oil radiator with full diffuser, nozzle and cowl flap
in an effort to reduce cooling drag and improve cooling efficiency.
If the Rotax published literature is to be believed, the 9 series
engines should be able to run for up to fifteen minutes on a reduced
power setting in the event of a coolant loss, to enable the hapless
pilot to reach the ground safely. Indeed they justify the unusual
configuration that combines the complexity of water cooled cylinder
heads with inefficiency of air cooled cylinder barrels for that reason.
Your experimentation and the experience of coolant failure of others
begs an interesting question, if the Rotax air cooled barrels do not
offer any increased endurance in the event of coolant loss - why use
air-cooled barrels?
Water cooled barrels would offer far better heat distribution and thus
less localised distortion and allow tighter tolerance pistons that in
turn would develop greater power with less noise.
With regards to thermostats, your comment were perhaps intended for the
original poster. I was referring to the scenario from a previous poster,
where the coolant has been lost and the engine is still running. Under
these conditions you can reasonably expect the oil temperature to rise
(to possibly critical levels) and I was trying to indicate that a
synthetic oil could possibly withstand these extreme conditions.
Nigel
On 04/06/2014 11:24, GTH wrote:
| Quote: |
Nigel Graham a écrit :
> I would be very interested to hear how successful this is once fitted
> and tested (either on or off list).
> With regards to oil over-temp should the water coolant be lost, I
> think you might be surprised how resilient a modern full-synthetic
> oil is (which can be used in a 9 series engine as long as you don't
> run 100LL). On a reduced power decent I think you would get away with
> it.
Nigel and all,
I respectfully beg to differ with the above statement.
As some listers here may know I've been conducting extensive oil and
water cooling tests on a 914.
Whereas in-flight heat rejection through oil and water actual numbers
are not totally in agreement with the Rotax ground bench numbers, the
coolant plays a key role, and total loss of coolant is definitely a
major issue. I seriously question the chances of engine in-flight
survival for more than a very short time at idle.
If you happen to have solid data on experiments on Rotax engines with
partial or total loss of coolant I would be much interested and
willing to publish them on Contrails !
Concerning the coolant thermostat option, the question is, do you
value lightness, simplicity and low drag or not ?
And above all, do you have ample cooling, since the idea is to always
provide excess cooling and just throttle the oil flow to help oil
warming up.
A thermostat helps oil *warming*, not cooling, at the price of
additionnal weight and constant cooling drag penalty.
As I understand that some Europa builders experience marginal cooling,
they may wish to first fix the cooling airflow issue.
FWIW,
Best regards,
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gilles.thesee(at)free.fr
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:47 pm Post subject: coolant thermostat uk |
|
|
Nigel Graham a écrit :
| Quote: |
<nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk>
The importance of the coolant system is certainly not lost on me.
While you are probably not aware of it, I have done a lot of work to
develop a fully ducted water/oil radiator with full diffuser, nozzle
and cowl flap in an effort to reduce cooling drag and improve cooling
efficiency.
|
Nigel,
Thank you for your message and your indications, and please pardon me
for the confusion about the original posters.
Congratulations on your cooling developments, in my opinion it is really
worth the effort. With our engine installation, we are able to choose
any running temp within the green arc in climb, cruise, descent.
| Quote: | Your experimentation and the experience of coolant failure of others
begs an interesting question, if the Rotax air cooled barrels do not
offer any increased endurance in the event of coolant loss - why use
air-cooled barrels?
Water cooled barrels would offer far better heat distribution and thus
less localised distortion and allow tighter tolerance pistons that in
turn would develop greater power with less noise.
Here are some musings on the subject :
|
- Concerning the barrel temperatures, we must consider that the cooling
needs of the barrels are an order of magnitude less than those of the
heads, so liquid cooling is probably not worth the hassles.
- With separate cylinders and air-cooled barrels, there is no risk of
mixing oil and coolant in the event of a blown gasket like it sometimes
happens in automobiles.
- Also I noticed that the Rotax heads behave like "temperature wells"
that directly drive the barrel temperatures, so barrel cooling is
definitely not an issue as long as the heads are correctly cooled.
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gilles.thesee(at)free.fr
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:49 pm Post subject: coolant thermostat uk |
|
|
GTH a écrit :
| Quote: | that the Rotax heads behave like "temperature wells" that directly
drive the barrel temperatures,
|
Or maybe "heat sinks" ?
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:41 pm Post subject: coolant thermostat uk |
|
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 06/04/2014 02:37 PM, Nigel Graham wrote:
| Quote: | Your experimentation and the experience of coolant failure of
others begs an interesting question, if the Rotax air cooled
barrels do not offer any increased endurance in the event of
coolant loss - why use air-cooled barrels? Water cooled barrels
would offer far better heat distribution and thus less localised
distortion and allow tighter tolerance pistons that in turn would
develop greater power with less noise.
|
The barrels don't need to radiate much heat. Over 90% of the heat of
the combustion is transferred to the cylinder heads. This is where the
combustion takes place. Once the piston is moving downwards the
combustion has already ended and because of the expanding space
temperature drops rapidly.
The fins on the barrels are misleading. They look like the fins on the
barrels of truly air cooled airplane engines, and make people think
that the Rotax engine is partially air cooled. This is not so. True, a
little bit of air helps to get rid of the residual heat of the
barrels, but not much can be gained by increasing air flow over them.
The barrels are also cooled by the cylinder heads and engine core. One
end is water cooled, the other end is oil cooled.
In my airplane I have closed off the gills AND the round openings at
the front of the cowling. Air flow is guided with two hoses from a
single opening which also feeds an oil radiator, and the air exits via
the cowl flap which is shared with the radiator exits and is usually
almost closed. With tuning the system I was amazed how little air flow
is needed to keep the barrels within a healthy temperature range.
In the original Europa setup, the rear most barrels have almost no air
cooling, without adverse effects.
Loss of coolant will almost certainly melt the engine. Although it
seems that while the engine is running the softening barrels and heads
will remain enough in shape by the pistons to keep power production up
fow quite a while.
Frans
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)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=0IQT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Remi Guerner
Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:09 am Post subject: Re: coolant thermostat uk |
|
|
<<<<<The barrels don't need to radiate much heat. Over 90% of the heat of
the combustion is transferred to the cylinder heads. >>>>>
This is confirmed by Rotax in the Installation Manuals:
They state: "The size and type of radiator should be adequate to transfer thermal energy of approx. 28kW (912S) 30kW (914)". For the cylinder barrel, they say: "the cooling air ducts must be designed such that they transfer thermal energy of approx. 6 kW. "
That means that up to 83 % of the cooling is done through the water-cooled heads. Obviously, in case of a total loss of coolant, the engine will not run for long with the remaining 17%.
Remi
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
