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donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:43 am Post subject: Brownout battery charging?

Because my last question was incredibly educational, I thought that I would try another.   



I'm thinking that I would like to have a brownout battery to keep the EFIS up during engine start.  I thought about using a "deslumpifier" but figured that a brownout battery would have the added bonus of keeping the EFIS up during a... main battery failure, contactor failure, etc. (those not being the primary reason though). 



My primary challenge is that I've got a 24v (or 28v if that's how you want to call it) electrical system and every auxiliary or backup battery that I've seen is 12v.  But I found these:

http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/xt.html



or these:



http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/gr12vo45amph.html



Which would be wired in series. 



I'm using a VPX-Pro and they support a backup battery and attached is the approach I was thinking of taking. The EFIS has multiple, diode protected power inputs so I would simply run one of the alternate power inputs to the backup battery. 



Here's the question:  Will they charge when wired as described?  These batteries are lead acid batteries so given my limited knowledge of battery technology, it seems to me that it should work.  I contacted the vendor and they would not comment beyond using the correct wall charger for these batteries.  Attempting to charge them any other way will result in reversing the rotation of the planet and killing all life. 



So given that, I'm not sure if this is the right battery.

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rnewman(at)tcwtech.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:29 pm Post subject: Brownout battery charging?

I know many on this list are about rolling their own designs and I'm all for 

that,   however, if you want an engineered solution to this problem we have 

it available.     Our series of IPS products,  (intelligent power 

stabilizer)  provides the exact function of preventing critical equipment 

from rebooting during engine starting.   Our products our purpose built 

DC:DC converters that run from very low voltages and provide a stabilized 

output to the connected load.   We have both 12 volt and 24 volt models in 

stock.



All the details are at:   www.tcwtech.com    just click on the pictures of 

IPS products.



In my RV-10 I use our IPS-12v-4a unit to protect my Garmin GNS430.   It 

provides stable 12 volt power to the GNS system with battery voltages as low 

as 4 volts.



Bob Newman

N541RV



--

tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:08 pm Post subject: Brownout battery charging?

Bob, do you happen to be familiar with the GTN 650 power input scheme? I used the diode isolated power pins on a 430 install (NAV & Comm) to provide power from two different busses, now I'm helping a friend with his 650 install and he wanted to do the same. Were told the multiple input pins on the 650 are not diode isolated. I'm surprised by this, any thoughts why they did this?

Thanks, Tim



[quote] On Jun 24, 2014, at 4:28 PM, "Bob-tcw" <rnewman(at)tcwtech.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I know many on this list are about rolling their own designs and I'm all for that,   however, if you want an engineered solution to this problem we have it available.     Our series of IPS products,  (intelligent power stabilizer)  provides the exact function of preventing critical equipment from rebooting during engine starting.   Our products our purpose built DC:DC converters that run from very low voltages and provide a stabilized output to the connected load.   We have both 12 volt and 24 volt models in stock.

 

 All the details are at:   www.tcwtech.com    just click on the pictures of IPS products.

 

 In my RV-10 I use our IPS-12v-4a unit to protect my Garmin GNS430.   It provides stable 12 volt power to the GNS system with battery voltages as low as 4 volts.

 

 Bob Newman

 N541RV

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 --

rnewman(at)tcwtech.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:47 pm Post subject: Brownout battery charging?

Yes,  I'm totally aware of this (blunder!)   I've talked to my friends at 

Garmin, as we have designed many of our products with their gear in mind and 

know them quite well,  and they were surprised by the removal of such a 

useful feature.   They really did not have a good reason for this change, 

only some mild stumbling about how the GTN is probably already on an 

essential bus of some sort.   It was pretty lame.



Anyway,  there you have it,  they removed a perfectly good feature!. 

BTW,  we do have an application drawing for utilizing our IBBS back-up 

product line with GTN navigators.  Our IBBS products have the diode 

isolation built-in.

Bob Newman

TCW Technologies,

N541RV



--

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:51 pm Post subject: Brownout battery charging?

At 07:07 PM 6/24/2014, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob, do you happen to be familiar with the GTN 650 power input 

scheme? I used the diode isolated power pins on a 430 install (NAV & 

Comm) to provide power from two different busses, now I'm helping a 

friend with his 650 install and he wanted to do the same. Were told 

the multiple input pins on the 650 are not diode isolated. I'm 

surprised by this, any thoughts why they did this?


	


   Looking through the GTN650 manual at

   http://tinyurl.com/lc6v4th

   I find no references to diode isolation

   within the GTN640 between nav and comm

   radio power. This is consistent with

   other Garmin installations I've had

   any contact with. One input is for comm,

   the other for nav and they are independent

   of each other.





   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:57 pm Post subject: Brownout battery charging?

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?

At 07:07 PM 6/24/2014, you wrote:

Bob, do you happen to be familiar with the GTN 650 power input 

scheme? I used the diode isolated power pins on a 430 install (NAV & 

Comm) to provide power from two different busses, now I'm helping a 

friend with his 650 install and he wanted to do the same. Were told 

the multiple input pins on the 650 are not diode isolated. I'm 

surprised by this, any thoughts why they did this?

   Looking through the GTN650 manual at

   http://tinyurl.com/lc6v4th

   I find no references to diode isolation

   within the GTN640 between nav and comm

   radio power. This is consistent with

   other Garmin installations I've had

   any contact with. One input is for comm,

   the other for nav and they are independent

   of each other.

   Just checked the manual for the 430 at

   http://tinyurl.com/kwvhtxh

   and found the same thing . . .

   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:04 pm Post subject: Brownout battery charging?

At 02:43 PM 6/24/2014, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Because my last question was incredibly educational, I thought that 

I would try another.  



I'm thinking that I would like to have a brownout battery to keep 

the EFIS up during engine start.  I thought about using a 

"deslumpifier" but figured that a brownout battery would have the 

added bonus of keeping the EFIS up during a... main battery failure, 

contactor failure, etc. (those not being the primary reason though).


	


   What's your anticipated architecture? Under what

   conditions do you anticipate a battery failure?

 	  Quote: 	
		  My primary challenge is that I've got a 24v (or 28v if that's how 

you want to call it) electrical system and every auxiliary or backup 

battery that I've seen is 12v.  But I found these:


	


   Yeah, you'll have to roll your own and you're

   going to be loathe to install anything with

   robustness . . . meaning small . . . meaning

   not particularly long-lived when connected

   across a DC bus system.



   The deslumpifier is by far the more elegant

   solution . . . with a Z-13/8 or similar

   architecture and rudimentary preventative

   maintenance, there's just no compelling driver

   for bolting more boxes full of lead to your

   airplane . . . even itty-bitty ones.

   Bob . . .

donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?

 	  rnewman(at)tcwtech.com wrote: 	
		  I know many on this list are about rolling their own designs and I'm all for 

that,   however, if you want an engineered solution to this problem we have 

it available.     Our series of IPS products,  (intelligent power 

stabilizer)  provides the exact function of preventing critical equipment 

from rebooting during engine starting.   Our products our purpose built 

DC:DC converters that run from very low voltages and provide a stabilized 

output to the connected load.   We have both 12 volt and 24 volt models in 

stock. 	




I had asked about 24v versions of your product not too long ago (I think the last time was last year at OSH) and was told you didn't have a 24v version. I looked on your website and couldn't find any mention either. 



Can you provide a link to your 24v IPS product?

tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:20 pm Post subject: Brownout battery charging?

I don't believe it spells this out in the 430 manual (BobK), but the pins are diode isolated internally, multi pins on both comm and NAV sections. So just like GRT equipment it would power from the pin with the highest voltage present. Normally the pins are just tied together, but the option is there if you have a dual bus aircraft. Evidently they decided not to do this on the 650. 

Tim



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jun 24, 2014, at 5:55 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?

 

 

 At 07:07 PM 6/24/2014, you wrote:

 

 

 

 Bob, do you happen to be familiar with the GTN 650 power input scheme? I used the diode isolated power pins on a 430 install (NAV & Comm) to provide power from two different busses, now I'm helping a friend with his 650 install and he wanted to do the same. Were told the multiple input pins on the 650 are not diode isolated. I'm surprised by this, any thoughts why they did this?

 

 Looking through the GTN650 manual at

 http://tinyurl.com/lc6v4th

 I find no references to diode isolation

 within the GTN640 between nav and comm

 radio power. This is consistent with

 other Garmin installations I've had

 any contact with. One input is for comm,

 the other for nav and they are independent

 of each other.

 

 Just checked the manual for the 430 at

 http://tinyurl.com/kwvhtxh

 and found the same thing . . .

 

 

 Bob . . .

donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?

 	  nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: 	
		  

   What's your anticipated architecture? 	


Not sure what you're looking for. Like I said, I'm running a VPX-Pro, 24v electrical system. I don't know how much more you need beyond the diagram I posted. Let me know, and I'll provide it.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Under what conditions do you anticipate a battery failure? 	


I don't anticipate a battery failure. My primary reason is to keep the EFIS during engine start. An added benefit is being able to power the EFIS in the event of a battery or contactor failure. The latter is just an added benefit. Not a primary reason.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

Yeah, you'll have to roll your own and you're going to be loathe to install anything with robustness . . . meaning small . . . meaning not particularly long-lived when connected across a DC bus system. 	


Well, I was looking at 3-5ah (the EFIS and AHRS draw about 2a). So I certainly wasn't looking for cross-country endurance.



 	  Quote: 	
		   The deslumpifier is by far the more elegant solution . . . with a Z-13/8 or similar architecture and rudimentary preventative maintenance, there's just no compelling driver for bolting more boxes full of lead to your airplane . . . even itty-bitty ones. 	


Eric Jones provided me with a schematic for his DeSlumpifier a while back. But after thinking about the time to make the changes for a 24v system and build it, I thought that a backup battery option may be quicker and easier.

rnewman(at)tcwtech.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:58 pm Post subject: Brownout battery charging?

The 24 volt version of the IPS system is at: 

http://tcwtech.com/intelligent_power_stabilize_24v.htm



Bob Newman





--

donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?

 	  rnewman(at)tcwtech.com wrote: 	
		  The 24 volt version of the IPS system is at: 

http://tcwtech.com/intelligent_power_stabilize_24v.htm



Bob Newman

-- 	


Ahhh. I think I see the confusion.  This is basically a DeSlumpifier, right?  I was thinking battery.  



This is definitely an option.  I'm at the point where I'm trying to avoid major detours.  And building a DeSlumpifier from scratch could become a black hole of time.



Thanks!

donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?

 	  rnewman(at)tcwtech.com wrote: 	
		  The 24 volt version of the IPS system is at: 

http://tcwtech.com/intelligent_power_stabilize_24v.htm



Bob Newman

-- 	


Ahhh. I think I see the confusion.  This is basically a DeSlumpifier, right?  I was thinking battery.  



This is definitely an option.  I'm at the point where I'm trying to avoid major detours.  And building a DeSlumpifier from scratch could become a black hole of time.



Thanks!

tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:43 pm Post subject: Brownout battery charging?

If it's just brownout, and you have a 28V system...I'm guessing the EFIS will run on 12-28 volts, so I doubt you'll sag under 12 volts when cranking. Be fine won't it?

Tim

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jun 24, 2014, at 6:34 PM, "donjohnston" <don(at)velocity-xl.com> wrote:

 nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:

> 

>   What's your anticipated architecture?

 Not sure what you're looking for. Like I said, I'm running a VPX-Pro, 24v electrical system. I don't know how much more you need beyond the diagram I posted. Let me know, and I'll provide it.

> Under what conditions do you anticipate a battery failure?

 I don't anticipate a battery failure. My primary reason is to keep the EFIS during engine start. An added benefit is being able to power the EFIS in the event of a battery or contactor failure. The latter is just an added benefit. Not a primary reason.

> 

> Yeah, you'll have to roll your own and you're going to be loathe to install anything with robustness . . . meaning small . . . meaning not particularly long-lived when connected across a DC bus system.

 Well, I was looking at 3-5ah (the EFIS and AHRS draw about 2a). So I certainly wasn't looking for cross-country endurance.

> The deslumpifier is by far the more elegant solution . . . with a Z-13/8 or similar architecture and rudimentary preventative maintenance, there's just no compelling driver for bolting more boxes full of lead to your airplane . . . even itty-bitty ones.

 Eric Jones provided me with a schematic for his DeSlumpifier a while back. But after thinking about the time to make the changes for a 24v system and build it, I thought that a backup battery option may be quicker and easier.

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425412#425412

rnewman(at)tcwtech.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:24 am Post subject: Brownout battery charging?

Our information is that at least the GRT 24 volt version is Not  12-24 capable and suffers from low voltage reboot issues during engine cranking and for some during  electric hydraulic pump actuation.   We have solved their issues on a number of occasions using the 24 volt ips product.    



Bob Newman. 

TCW technologies.  



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jun 24, 2014, at 10:42 PM, Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 If it's just brownout, and you have a 28V system...I'm guessing the EFIS will run on 12-28 volts, so I doubt you'll sag under 12 volts when cranking. Be fine won't it?

 Tim

 

> On Jun 24, 2014, at 6:34 PM, "donjohnston" <don(at)velocity-xl.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> 

> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:

>> 

>>  What's your anticipated architecture?

> 

> Not sure what you're looking for. Like I said, I'm running a VPX-Pro, 24v electrical system. I don't know how much more you need beyond the diagram I posted. Let me know, and I'll provide it.

> 

>> Under what conditions do you anticipate a battery failure?

> 

> I don't anticipate a battery failure. My primary reason is to keep the EFIS during engine start. An added benefit is being able to power the EFIS in the event of a battery or contactor failure. The latter is just an added benefit. Not a primary reason.

> 

> 

>> 

>> Yeah, you'll have to roll your own and you're going to be loathe to install anything with robustness . . . meaning small . . . meaning not particularly long-lived when connected across a DC bus system.

> 

> Well, I was looking at 3-5ah (the EFIS and AHRS draw about 2a). So I certainly wasn't looking for cross-country endurance.

> 

> 

>> The deslumpifier is by far the more elegant solution . . . with a Z-13/8 or similar architecture and rudimentary preventative maintenance, there's just no compelling driver for bolting more boxes full of lead to your airplane . . . even itty-bitty ones.

> 

> Eric Jones provided me with a schematic for his DeSlumpifier a while back. But after thinking about the time to make the changes for a 24v system and build it, I thought that a backup battery option may be quicker and easier.

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425412#425412

donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:18 am Post subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?

 	  tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: 	
		  If it's just brownout, and you have a 28V system...I'm guessing the EFIS will run on 12-28 volts, so I doubt you'll sag under 12 volts when cranking. Be fine won't it?

Tim 	


No. With GRT, you get either a 12v or a 24v version.  The 24v version drops off at around 21v.

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:18 am Post subject: Brownout battery charging?

 	  Quote: 	
		  I don't anticipate a battery failure. My primary reason is to keep 

the EFIS during engine start. An added benefit is being able to 

power the EFIS in the event of a battery or contactor failure. The 

latter is just an added benefit. Not a primary reason.


	


   How long does this EFIS take to 'boot'?

   Bob . . .

donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Brownout battery charging?

[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"] 	  Quote: 	
		  

   How long does this EFIS take to 'boot'?



   Bob . . . 	




About 30 seconds. But it is also displaying engine data.

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:15 am Post subject: Brownout battery charging?

Don, I had a similar issue with my Z-14 12volt RV-10.  I knew during the 

design phase that before the start I wanted to be able to run a rather 

extensive list of avionics (aka 'the kitchen sink').  That requirement 

came from my experience with IFR operations in my old Maule.

A series of decisions and perhaps oversights made the list particularly 

power hungry - (3) GRT EFISs powered on with the master, a GRT EIS, and  

(1) G430w because that's where flight plans have to be input along with 

a comm radio.  It turns out that the (3) EFISs are not only power needy 

but they also are sensitive to drops when engine starting, i.e. they 

re-boot, and they take roughly 30 secs to come back online.

When I had to send one unit in for service, I was warned that it may 

well have been the result of the boot process being interrupted.  That 

shouldn't happen but it is experimental... so I make sure all 3 units 

all fully booted before starts.

Some other issues contributed - e.g. the GRTs required clock power when 

the master was off which tended to drag down a battery during non-flying 

periods (later they were updated to pickup the time from the GPS).

With dual buses and batteries, my workaround was to run the pre-start 

avionics on 1 battery and start with the other.  Worked okay in warm 

weather but  a single PC680 sometimes had problems turning over the cold 

IO-540 with it's lightweight starter.  I often ended up having to choose 

between having 2 batteries for a cold start or having my avionics 

available for pre-start machinations.  Running the strobes pre-start 

became a 'non-starter', at least until I upgraded strobe power supply units.

Finally I put TCW's IPS product in and that finally gave me what I 

wanted, consistently.  So 3 years down the line, I've had close to 1 

year of totally satisfactory operation of my panel around engine 

starts.  I have sat out in the rain, engine off, watching a storm pass 

by on Nexrad, turned on the strobes for safety, cranked on both 

batteries and gone on my merry way just as desired.

Bill "who finds the electronics/electrics of a well equipped bass boat 

almost as entertaining as catching bass" Watson

On 6/26/2014 6:22 PM, donjohnston wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 [quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]

>     How long does this EFIS take to 'boot'?

>

>     Bob . . .

 About 30 seconds. But it is also displaying engine data.

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425566#425566

jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:23 am Post subject: Brownout battery charging?

Bill,

Do you have a schematic of your system by chance? Sounds like what I'm looking for!

Thanks

Justin

On Jun 27, 2014, at 7:14, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Don, I had a similar issue with my Z-14 12volt RV-10.  I knew during the design phase that before the start I wanted to be able to run a rather extensive list of avionics (aka 'the kitchen sink').  That requirement came from my experience with IFR operations in my old Maule.

 A series of decisions and perhaps oversights made the list particularly power hungry - (3) GRT EFISs powered on with the master, a GRT EIS, and  (1) G430w because that's where flight plans have to be input along with a comm radio.  It turns out that the (3) EFISs are not only power needy but they also are sensitive to drops when engine starting, i.e. they re-boot, and they take roughly 30 secs to come back online.

 When I had to send one unit in for service, I was warned that it may well have been the result of the boot process being interrupted.  That shouldn't happen but it is experimental... so I make sure all 3 units all fully booted before starts.

 Some other issues contributed - e.g. the GRTs required clock power when the master was off which tended to drag down a battery during non-flying periods (later they were updated to pickup the time from the GPS).

 With dual buses and batteries, my workaround was to run the pre-start avionics on 1 battery and start with the other.  Worked okay in warm weather but  a single PC680 sometimes had problems turning over the cold IO-540 with it's lightweight starter.  I often ended up having to choose between having 2 batteries for a cold start or having my avionics available for pre-start machinations.  Running the strobes pre-start became a 'non-starter', at least until I upgraded strobe power supply units.

 Finally I put TCW's IPS product in and that finally gave me what I wanted, consistently.  So 3 years down the line, I've had close to 1 year of totally satisfactory operation of my panel around engine starts.  I have sat out in the rain, engine off, watching a storm pass by on Nexrad, turned on the strobes for safety, cranked on both batteries and gone on my merry way just as desired.

 Bill "who finds the electronics/electrics of a well equipped bass boat almost as entertaining as catching bass" Watson

 On 6/26/2014 6:22 PM, donjohnston wrote:

> 

> 

> [quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]

>>    How long does this EFIS take to 'boot'?

>> 

>>    Bob . . .

> 

> About 30 seconds. But it is also displaying engine data.

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425566#425566

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